Mark Jamar

[Adam The God 30,256]

that is actually very true!

yeh but if we hadnt of won that game against carlton we could have had watts & nat, and then we could have had scully and butcher... we would be set for a premiership!!

We would have picked up Cruiser that year if we'd lost to Carlton, so the Nat probably wouldn't be as relevant. Furthermore, we could've had a bloke by the name of Chris Judd also.

Still, if we get Butcher and Scully, we'll be set for a premiership anyway.

[Adam The God 30,256]

Agree.

Don't know where this belief has come from other than being conjured up by our desperate need for a key forward.

Paul Johnson is not a forward.

I vividly remember him playing up forward against the Pies (even full forward from the goal square) in '07 and he could have had 5 by half time. Just his kicking let him down that day. I think that's where I might have got it from. He also leads very well on occasion. Mind you, he doesn't finish a lot of his opportunities.

[Einstein 1]

I vividly remember him playing up forward against the Pies (even full forward from the goal square) in '07 and he could have had 5 by half time. Just his kicking let him down that day. I think that's where I might have got it from. He also leads very well on occasion. Mind you, he doesn't finish a lot of his opportunities.

Paul Johnson's problem is his finishing. He isn't a gifted kick by any stretch. Sure he can play forward and get out on a lead but it simply isn't his natural game. He just isn't suited to it.

As far his game in '07 against Collingwood goes, he had 9 touches that day, did take 6 marks and kicked 2 behinds.

[Doggo 32]

Pity you have no logical basis to make that assessment.

Johnson kicked a goal in each of the last 5 or 6 games last year, as well as in the first two this year. I don't think Jamar has kicked goals in back to back games ever...

[Adam The God 30,256]

For arguments sake, kicking can be linked so heavily with confidence though. Hence, our disposal inefficiency over the past two seasons. I'm not convinced he'll miss as often, if he too becomes part of a stronger team, that is flying. I suppose it's a bit like the Sylvia situation. Johno has such raw athleticism, combining that with height, he just seems like he has all the potential in the world. Stick him in a good team and you never know. Stick Jamar in a good team...well he was in one, in '04 and '05...he was just damn right frustrating.

[Doggo 32]

i dont know why everyone on this site hates Jamar! personally i think he is better then PJ! good to see the big russian back and hopefully he can prove himself!

The day he plays a game like PJ did last week on Cox, then you'll find a lot more people getting behind him. As it stands, i don't think he'll ever be able to get 20 possies in a match, ever.

At the moment, and throughout his whole career, he's struggled to get 10 possesions a game (i think his career av stats around 5 a game or thereabouts, and over the last 2 years that improved to around 7 disposals a match). Even when playing as #1 ruck and spending majority time on ground.

The way football is headed these days, those kind of numbers are not acceptable.

[Einstein 1]

Stick Jamar in a good team...well he was in one, in '04 and '05...he was just damn right frustrating.

Yeah, agree. I like many have seen enough of Jamar.

But he will get his chance simply because we have such limited options at ruck at the moment. Spencer is playing Casey reserves this week so you would think he is still at least a few weeks away from any call up to the Melbourne side.

Jamar is ahead of him and has to take any opportunity that falls his way. He is playing for his career.

I don't expect to see anything that I havent already seen from him. But he will get his chance.

[Doggo 32]

Paul Johnson's problem is his finishing. He isn't a gifted kick by any stretch.

I disagree.

For a man of his size, he's an exceptional kick. Lovely booming left foot with a sound technique and the ability to kick 55m. We've seen this in the past at Sandy (in a premiership side), and even now, occasionally you see it in his field kicking. He's a lovely short to middle-distance pass of the ball too. The reason i think he stuffs a few of his kicks up is he often goes for passes or options that are rather ambitious. Foot skills aren't his problem at all, although i think decision making is something he could improve.

In regards to set shots, it's all confidence. He's a lot more capable in front of goals than he's shown in his career thus far.

[Einstein 1]

The day he plays a game like PJ did last week on Cox, then you'll find a lot more people getting behind him. As it stands, i don't think he'll ever be able to get 20 possies in a match, ever.

At the moment, and throughout his whole career, he's struggled to get 10 possesions a game (i think his career av stats around 5 a game or thereabouts, and over the last 2 years that improved to around 7 disposals a match).

Jamar's highest possession count for a game is 14.

He averages 5.6 a game for his career.

Over the last two seasons he has averaged 7.4 in 24 games.

Last season he averaged 8.2 in 14 games.

So yeah, youre spot on.

[Einstein 1]

I disagree.

For a man of his size, he's an exceptional kick.

I was referring more to his set shot for goal than his little touch kicks he does around the ground.

I agree, he has displayed at times some good touch with the ball in his field kicking, especially for a man of his height.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Johnson kicked a goal in each of the last 5 or 6 games last year, as well as in the first two this year. I don't think Jamar has kicked goals in back to back games ever...

Thanks for the confirmation about logic.

Right so PJ has also kicked only 8 goals in his other 42 games. I dont think Jamar has kicked 8 goals in 42 games.

And for the record he has kicked 3 goals in 7 games and had at least 4 goals kicked by his direct opponent drifting unattended in the F50 ( McIntosh 3 goals, Fraser 1 goal)

Johno has such raw athleticism, combining that with height, he just seems like he has all the potential in the world. Stick him in a good team and you never know. Stick Jamar in a good team...well he was in one, in '04 and '05...he was just damn right frustrating.

Johnno would still be a jack of no trades in a good team and would not have survived as long. As frustrating as Jamar is, 2004 and 2005 were his first two seasons of AFL. And from my recollection, MFC finished 8th both years. Hardly good teams.

PJ is now in his 7th year of AFL and you are still talking potential. Thats a real worry.

For a man of his size, he's an exceptional kick. Lovely booming left foot with a sound technique and the ability to kick 55m. We've seen this in the past at Sandy (in a premiership side), and even now, occasionally you see it in his field kicking. He's a lovely short to middle-distance pass of the ball too. The reason i think he stuffs a few of his kicks up is he often goes for passes or options that are rather ambitious. Foot skills aren't his problem at all, although i think decision making is something he could improve.

In regards to set shots, it's all confidence. He's a lot more capable in front of goals than he's shown in his career thus far.

I agree PJ is a very good ruckman at VFL level. He just gets found out in the AFL.

He is a dodgy shot in front of goal. His record speaks for itself and some of his field kicking is less than ordinary. Its not a matter of how far you can kick or how lovely your technique is, it what you do with it.

The day he plays a game like PJ did last week on Cox, then you'll find a lot more people getting behind him. As it stands, i don't think he'll ever be able to get 20 possies in a match, ever.

Short memories indeed. Last year he nullified a dominant Sandilands at the MCG against Freo and guess what with the heavy work he did around the centre guess what MFC won the game.

At the moment, and throughout his whole career, he's struggled to get 10 possesions a game (i think his career av stats around 5 a game or thereabouts, and over the last 2 years that improved to around 7 disposals a match). Even when playing as #1 ruck and spending majority time on ground.

The way football is headed these days, those kind of numbers are not acceptable.

What a carp metric that is. I am no fan of Jamar but eulogising of PJ for one game up to standard is unbelievable. There is no doubt that PJ is more mobile than Jamar but for all that mobility I have never seen PJ influence a game from any position he has played forward, back or in the ruck (And even his staunchest supporters have admitted he is not a ruckman!). I can only deduce that given the high number of cheap disposals that his deft little kicks with a beeeeuuudful kicking style just dont hit the target or hurt the opposition. And as you have pointed there is his decision making.....Hmmmm!!

Dont bother condemning Jamar to make PJ look better. Its a wasted breath. Neither are satisfactory AFL ruckman. But at least one of them has a modicum of rucking and heavy work capability. And its not the one with the deft little kicks and the cute skills.

[Doggo 32]

Jamar's highest possession count for a game is 14.

He averages 5.6 a game for his career.

Over the last two seasons he has averaged 7.4 in 24 games.

Last season he averaged 8.2 in 14 games.

So yeah, youre spot on.

Comparatively...

Johnson's highest possession count for a game is 20 (twice).

He averages 10.3 a game for his career.

In 2007-2008 he averaged 11.5 in 32 games.

Last season he averaged 13.75 in 16 matches. He got over 10 disposals in every match he played.

This season he averages 13.0 in 7 games.

Interesting reading.

The hitouts tell a different story.

As a tap ruckman Jamar has it all over PJ.

In his last 23 games (2008-09), PJ's averaged 10.4 hitouts per match with a career best of 21. In Jamar's last 24 (2007-08), he averaged 15.5 hitouts with a career best of 25. Over their careers, PJ averages 8.1 and Jamar 11.6.

It has to be said, in terms of finding and using the footy, PJ's upside is far greater than Jamar's. But Jamar is the superior tap ruckman.

Often stats tell us very little, and these stats really only tell us everything we already knew. PJ's the better player around the ground, Jamar the better tap ruck. What PJ has over Jamar is IMO, the ability to improve his ruckwork, to go with his work around the ground. Jamar will always have issues finding the footy and using it well and has an almost non-existent influence on games. Given those limitations, and in his 8th year in the system, the chances of him succeeding at AFL level, or even staying on the list, are far slimmer than those of PJ. In MY opinion...

Source: http://stats.rleague.com/afl/afl_index.html

[Doggo 32]

What PJ has over Jamar is IMO, the ability to improve his ruckwork, to go with his work around the ground. Jamar will always have issues finding the footy and using it well and has an almost non-existent influence on games. Given those limitations, and in his 8th year in the system (PJ's 7th), the chances of him succeeding at AFL level, or even staying on the list, are far slimmer than those of PJ. In MY opinion...

Rhino.

I've highlighted the above from my last post in response to yours. I agree with your sentiment that neither have shown themselves to be AFL quality ruckman, however IMO PJ has more of a chance of getting there one day.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rhino.

I've highlighted the above from my last post in response to yours. I agree with your sentiment that neither have shown themselves to be AFL quality ruckman, however IMO PJ has more of a chance of getting there one day.

Fair enough.

Based on your comments, they would be in same boat with 7 and 8 years respectively as neither has any marked influence on the game.

Time will tell.

[Doggo 32]

Fair enough.

Based on your comments, they would be in same boat with 7 and 8 years respectively as neither has any marked influence on the game.

Time will tell.

Time will tell indeed. 15 games left this year, will be interesting times for both players.

Johnno would still be a jack of no trades in a good team and would not have survived as long. As frustrating as Jamar is, 2004 and 2005 were his first two seasons of AFL. And from my recollection, MFC finished 8th both years. Hardly good teams.

PJ is now in his 7th year of AFL and you are still talking potential. Thats a real worry.

Sorry to knit-pick, but...

Jamar's first year on the list was 2002.

He made his debut in 2003, not 2004. Same year as PJ.

PJ played just 11 games due to injury in 2003, 2004 and 2006. That's his 1st, 2nd and 4th years of development lost to injury. In his 3rd year he had a standout season at Sandy and won the Liston medal. In 06 he showed real signs that he would make it, before going down with that shoulder injury in the Sydney match.

It is a pity he hasn't totally cashed in on that potential just yet, but the potential is still there. He's only 24, 25 soon, but still very young for a ruckman. His best footy is ahead of him.

[Doggo 32]

......by the way, you didn't nearly lay (Doggo) at West Coast last round, did you?

Call me stupid, but... i'm not sure i know what you're saying... ??

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Sorry to knit-pick, but...

Jamar made his debut in 2003, not 2004. Same year as PJ.

However, his first year on the list was 2002. PJ played just 11 games due to injury in 2003, 2004 and 2006. That's his 1st, 2nd and 4th years of development lost to injury. In his 3rd year he had a standout season at Sandy and won the Liston medal. In 06 he showed real signs that he would make it, before going down with that shoulder injury in the Sydney match.

It is a pity he hasn't totally cashed in on that potential just yet, but the potential is still there. He's only 24, 25 soon, but still very young for a ruckman. His best footy is ahead of him.

It could argued that Jamar was starved of opportunity playing understudy to a domineering White and a trucculent Jolly. That's his 1st 5 years of limited game time and opportunity. Plus he has had a number of injuries including this year after his best season ever in 2008. He is only 25, 26 soon but still very young for a ruckman.......

Doggo PJ is no different to Jamar as a ruckman. You are blowing alot of wind talking up the ordinary. BTW, his standout year at Sandy was about 9 games. He is very good at VFL level. That the problem.

[Doggo 32]

Sorry mate... maybe it's an old or country term, meaning 'not to try', 'to tank', 'to lay doggo when things need to be done'....

Haha... very appropriate in so many ways!

Just an old nickname given to me at high school. Never knew it actually meant something!

[Adam The God 30,256]

I disagree.

For a man of his size, he's an exceptional kick. Lovely booming left foot with a sound technique and the ability to kick 55m. We've seen this in the past at Sandy (in a premiership side), and even now, occasionally you see it in his field kicking. He's a lovely short to middle-distance pass of the ball too. The reason i think he stuffs a few of his kicks up is he often goes for passes or options that are rather ambitious. Foot skills aren't his problem at all, although i think decision making is something he could improve.

In regards to set shots, it's all confidence. He's a lot more capable in front of goals than he's shown in his career thus far.

Yeah, I'd agree with your assessment entirely, Doggo. He's got beautiful blance for a big man.

[Adam The God 30,256]

Johnno would still be a jack of no trades in a good team and would not have survived as long. As frustrating as Jamar is, 2004 and 2005 were his first two seasons of AFL. And from my recollection, MFC finished 8th both years. Hardly good teams.

If I remember correctly, we were sitting first by Round 15 and Round 18 or 19 in both respective seasons. Any team that does that is a good team in my book.

[Hannabal 4]

If I remember correctly, we were sitting first by Round 15 and Round 18 or 19 in both respective seasons. Any team that does that is a good team in my book.

You're easily pleased. Half the 16 team competition play Finals every year and it doesn't make them "good teams". We were just making up the numbers in those years.

[Adam The God 30,256]

You're easily pleased. Half the 16 team competition play Finals every year and it doesn't make them "good teams". We were just making up the numbers in those years.

We were on top with only a few rounds to go. In '04 (or was it '05?) particularly, there was no stand out team, so that was probably our best crack at a premiership since the 80s. If memory serves me correctly we were 14-5 after Round 19, but unfortunately faded in the last few games, just as we did the following year. You're not going to sway me, we were certainly one of the 4 top teams for the majority of that season.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

..we were certainly one of the 4 top teams for the majority of that season.

We werent there when it really counted.. in September. We made up numbers in the AFL finals in 2004 in 2006.

Hannabal is right on this.

Our best crack at a flag was 1990 and we blew it in a year when a side of ordinary quality got the flag. We were never in the hunt when it got serious in any of the three years I spoke of.

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

I think PJ can be used in more positions than Jamar and we know he can kicks goals.

The problem is that there is only one position that we want PJ/Jamar to play.

[Hannabal 4]

You're not going to sway me, we were certainly one of the 4 top teams for the majority of that season.

But not when it counted - Finals. Do you understand what the premiership season is all about ? It's not looking good until round 18, or teasing - like the Saints have done for 5 years, it's being able to win when it counts. A team is no "good" unless it wins at least one Final, and even then the result must be measured against varying parameters.

You win Finals and I'll stand up and listen, otherwise you're taking up space and kidding yourselves - and people like you.

And as you've a closed mind that won't be "swayed" I won't waste further time. And shouldn't have bothered.

(Btw, my signature should tell you what I think of players and teams that don't perform in Finals)