Dappa Dan said:

Where was everyone when he WAS played forward early in his career? He can't mark overhead, doesn't get to good positions, and hasn't shown a propensity to kick bags at either level as a lead-up KP forward. Many of his goals are crumbs, or are teh result of bullocking work from other, bigger forwards like Miller, or earlier, Neitz. It's all well and good he has a pretty kick, but unless by now he's showing signs that he loves a marking contest then he's always going to be a bit-part forward... Just like PJ only smaller and a bit quicker.

He kicked a goal a game in his first season. i mean even Buddy only kicked a goal a game in his first season. I'm not suggesting that Dunn is a key position, i'm suggesting him to be a third tall as he has a nous for kicking goals. He puts on good defensive pressure when he doesn't have it and how he gets his goalas are irrelevent, he gets them and has proven to get them when played forward.

  belzebub59 said:

Well fellow Demons it seems to me that the timing is about right to start the process of making those hard decisions about who (long term) is likely to be a contributor to our efforts in the next couple of years and who may have seen their best games already played.

The timing's not "about right" for me. If we started this discussion at the same time last year, Garland and Frawley would have been out the door.

It takes at least 20-25 games for a new player to come to grips with AFL football ... the pace, tactics, commitment, developing their body etc. I think there are far too many players on our list with less than 20 games experience to be making definitive statements now about who will and won't "make it".

I'm happy for Dunn to be given a go up forward as he's pathetic in the midfield.

The biggest prolem ( for mine ) with Dunn is that a good forward ( indeed any possie really ) can make some space for themselves. Dare I say is one certain Travis Johnstone was mecurial at it often, Davey can do it. Maric ,even now does sometimes. Dunn just gets dacked far too often. He needs to elevate his awareness..or the clock starts ticking

Maurie..I was actually leaning more towards the idea of some older fellows giving up a seat ..if you get my drift !!

  Dappa Dan said:

Did you readmy post? There are players who COULD go, But won't.

Why the hell not?

  Dappa Dan said:

Bell's body is going to be needed to get in between Blease or Morton and the 3-4 freight trains looking to snap him in half in the coming years.

We need Bell's body as much as we need Godfrey's

  Dappa Dan said:

PJ was the most improved player last year, and now the fairweather supporters are on his back, despite his slow improvement since round 1

You like other poster have been badly duped by a player who has some of the nice to haves but none of the need to haves.

He is an ordinary 200cm rover that had everyone lulled as "the best 2nd ruck in the league". The dream has been shattered and reality hurts.

  Dappa Dan said:

... And as for Dunn, if they're not going to drop Sylvia after his years of garbage, they're not going to drop Dunn who's younger and is only just getting to te size he's going to need to be. Also, these guys are perhaps tradeable, which means they won't make room on the list.

Unless both improve then both of them are in the gun. I guess team lining up waving their valuable picks at a 6 year player with attitude problems, lacks nous, limited tank and a terrible medical history and a 4 year player who good but is timid.

FWIW, atm I think Sylvia is ahead of Dunn but neither are safe.

  Dappa Dan said:

If we're talking ONLY delistings, and retirements obviously, then the list shrinks quite a bit. If you have a look at my post you'll see my point was that we are sucking the big one because too much is left to the young kids. Not because wehave dead-wood. Many of the mooted delistings would be premature should they eventuate. Certainly more premature than axing Carroll, White, Ooze, Neitz who all had very little more to offer.

At the moment, the whole process is left to the young ones.

Whelan, Wheatley and Junior are finished physically or otherwise. Robbo...dunno atm.

Bell, PJ are seven year AFL NQR footballers who just give us nothing. IMO they should go. And judgement calls need to be made on one or two of the younger players that just wont make it. The recruited class of 2004 is not bathing itself in glory at the moment and at least one of them is at the X roads.

  Rhino Richards said:

FWIW, atm I think Sylvia is ahead of Dunn but neither are safe.

Some on here don't like this analogy because of the Clay Sampson's of this world, but I like it and use it regularly. My Brother and I used this analogy after the match. Can you see Dunn or Sylvia playing in a premiership side ? The conclusion was that we could both see Sylvia playing in a premiership team, but not Dunn. My Brother's view was that whilst Sylvia will never be the star we craved, he is an excellent finisher. He can kick goals and how often does he miss his target by foot ? In a better side he'd be a very damaging player.

He's a keeper for mine.

  Hannabal said:

He's a keeper for mine.

He's ahead of Dunn..a keeper ?? time will tell !!!

If you get a chance to watch yesterdays game again watch Sylvia, most of our goals he was involved in the set up, be it diving at the footy to punch it to Mcleane to kick to Petterd or through his foot or hand passing. Dunn on the other hand all I can remember is he was always the third man up at ruck contests ands found on many occasions his man with the tap. On tap was on our defensive 50m instead of hitting boundary side he palmed it towards the centre straight down a Geelong players throat they goaled.

Dunn is a key forward that couldn't get a kick now he is a defensive midfielder that ducks the contest.

The harsh reality is we have to delist 4-5 players at the end of the year. We have no easy retirements and this will be the first time a the match comittee will have to delist all of them. Who wil they be we will find out in October

I can’t believe that Robbo’s return from injury and the great form he displayed against the best full back in the competition hasn’t generated any interest on this site. Still I suppose it’s better to question Morton’s commitment, spit at Cameron Bruce, slag off at Johnson, rub Bate’s nose in it, and complain about the weekend dietary habits of some of our players rather than salute the courage and commitment of a marvellous player. It was great to see number 24 out there on Sunday.

What we really need by the end of 2010 is for some (most?) of our 0-25 game players (mainly first- or second-round draftees) like Frawley, Garland, Morton, Watts, Blease, Strauss, Grimes, Maric, Martin, Petterd, Bennell and Jetta to develop into an 'elite' core. Then the rest of the players would 'fit in', but maybe play their roles by not being lumbered with 'Ablettesque' expectations. No premiership team has ever had 22 Abletts, they all have 'B' and 'C' grade players making up the numbers. And 18 teams will only diminish the overall talent pool even more.

At the moment it's our forward line with the biggest problem. For some reason Dunn and Bate were OK forwards in their debut year when surrounded by players like Neitz, Robertson and Yze. Now their limitations are exposed and they can't step up as the 'prime movers'. Our specific tall forward options at the moment (Miller, Dunn, Bate, Newton and perhaps Johnson) are pretty thin pickings ... but I am amused at suggestions each week that we drop three-quarters of that list when there's really nothing else.

We've done a lot of culling over the last 2 years but remember, we still haven't reaped the benefits of the recruiting that followed. Only 2 of our 6 first round picks from 2007 and 2008 played yesterday, and we know Maric is much better than what he showed.

There's A LOT of potential on the list, but unfortunately we seem to have a history of players with unfulfilled potential. I wonder if the time has come to trade one of our picks for an established young player...

I wish Robbo well in his comeback for injury. He presented well, and boy, doesn't it make a difference to the side.

However, I'm not a fan of him carrying on after a goal when the side is 30+ points down. The 400th goal, I allow him some slack because it would have been emotional with his friends & family and the long way back from a serious injury (lots of rehabilitation required). But the goals there after especially the one into an open goal, whilst 6 goals down at least, c'mon robbo. That's selfish.

I'd rather the goal be kicked and run back to a few teammates to rev them up, or better still a few pats on his teammates backsides and into position. Celebrate if it's a freakish goal, or a match winner next time. Not when your side is looking down the barrel.

Excellent write up.

I hope the club persevered with Maric who had a tough gig yesterday. He was restricted during the preseason because of hip surgery, played a few games where he impressed with Casey and then didn't play last week because he was an emergency. Then he cops Geelong first up. As I said:

"Tough gig!"

Mike Sheahan had an interesting look at the Saints list in which i will quote,

"I wouldn't have believed it possible a team with all of Zac Dawson, Michael Gardiner, James Gwilt, Clinton Jones, Justin Koschitzke and Andrew McQualter could challenge like it is."

Now,with the exception of Kosi when he is on his game, i defy anyone to tell me these are better than the bottom five or six players we have on our team. And although i haven't done the research, i bet these are the kind of players, that over the last couple of seasons had their own fans questioning how the could ever challenge as a team with players such as these.

I guess the question remains then, have they improved this year? Or is it just a case when you have a core of A-Grade players fit and firing,they can lift the level of the whole team?

Maybe some of the likes of Dunn, Bate, Newton, Bartram, Bell, PJ and Sylvia won't seem like deadwood once we actually develop a core of A-Grade players ourselves.

Maybe we are just frustrated because none of these players are going to turn into the superstars we had hoped.

Dropping these players from our list and replacing them with picks from weakened drafts won't necessarily improve our standing as a team.

  Jerry Lundergard said:

Maybe some of the likes of Dunn, Bate, Newton, Bartram, Bell, PJ and Sylvia won't seem like deadwood once we actually develop a core of A-Grade players ourselves.

...............

Dropping these players from our list and replacing them with picks from weakened drafts won't necessarily improve our standing as a team.

I am not so sure why posters are so keen to hold onto some players who have had up to 7 years in the AFL and have not developed a consistent and competitive role in a bung awful third rate team. The alarms should be ringing. For some people fringe players are like the old gold mine that you sure one day will come good. MFC dont have the luxury to carry them

If the Footy Dept comes to a view that a player aint going to make it after 4,5,6 or 7 years on the list then they go. Hell, MFC has a terrible record of keeping crud on the list (eg Godfrey, Ferg, Ward, Reed etc.)

Even if you develop a core of A grade players (and I hope we do), players certaintly of the ilk of PJ, Bartram,Newton Bell and Dunn are still going to be weights on your list. The issue with these players is not what its around them. Its the individual players themselves. IMO we have seen what they can give and its not good enough.

  Rhino Richards said:

I am not so sure why posters are so keen to hold onto some players who have had up to 7 years in the AFL and have not developed a consistent and competitive role in a bung awful third rate team. The alarms should be ringing. For some people fringe players are like the old gold mine that you sure one day will come good. MFC dont have the luxury to carry them

If the Footy Dept comes to a view that a player aint going to make it after 4,5,6 or 7 years on the list then they go. Hell, MFC has a terrible record of keeping crud on the list (eg Godfrey, Ferg, Ward, Reed etc.)

Even if you develop a core of A grade players (and I hope we do), players certaintly of the ilk of PJ, Bartram,Newton Bell and Dunn are still going to be weights on your list. The issue with these players is not what its around them. Its the individual players themselves. IMO we have seen what they can give and its not good enough.

Very well put and totally lost on so many. This is the crux of the whole matter.

  Maurie Lithen said:

The timing's not "about right" for me. If we started this discussion at the same time last year, Garland and Frawley would have been out the door.

It takes at least 20-25 games for a new player to come to grips with AFL football ... the pace, tactics, commitment, developing their body etc. I think there are far too many players on our list with less than 20 games experience to be making definitive statements now about who will and won't "make it".

Your not right Maurie, I've been a supporter of Garland from the start & allways optimistic of Nody Frawley expecting he needed time to grow.

Maybe you mean, in some supporters eyes their expectations were of premature dissappointment.

  Rhino Richards said:

Even if you develop a core of A grade players (and I hope we do), players certaintly of the ilk of PJ, Bartram,Newton Bell and Dunn are still going to be weights on your list. The issue with these players is not what its around them. Its the individual players themselves. IMO we have seen what they can give and its not good enough.

This makes sense.

We also have to beware of not putting the cart before the horse. We are kidding ourselves if we think a good core group of players will just fall in our lap. We need the best possible spread of talent we can get in order for a solid core group to emerge. We are still a fair while away from having that core group IMO and keeping hold of fringe players or non-performing players will be to the detriment of achieving one. Sure if we had the blue print in place like the Saints or Cats we could speculate on a few players and see how they go but when you are building from the ground up you need to use clay not [censored].

  Freak said:

He kicked a goal a game in his first season. i mean even Buddy only kicked a goal a game in his first season. I'm not suggesting that Dunn is a key position, i'm suggesting him to be a third tall as he has a nous for kicking goals. He puts on good defensive pressure when he doesn't have it and how he gets his goalas are irrelevent, he gets them and has proven to get them when played forward.

Can't argue with that. I guess what I'm looking for is a third tall that's only marginally behind Watts and Butcher, or perhaps one that can play a rangier role, but that can step in when Watts or Butcher is off. Basically Robbo with second efforts. Probably not being realistic though.

  Rhino Richards said:

Why the hell not?

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Many players wouldn't make it onto a list that's threatening, but that doesn't mean they WILL be dropped. If Dunn or Bell were on the way out, they would have gone earlier, back before they showed what little they have.

  Rhino Richards said:

We need Bell's body as much as we need Godfrey's

Stupid comparison. Bell is way younger and can kick straight.

  Rhino Richards said:

You like other poster have been badly duped by a player who has some of the nice to haves but none of the need to haves.

Nope. Not duped. That's your opinion. I've watched him very closely, and I think he has what it takes to make it as a modern-day ruckman. He's no Farmer, but he's good. Like many demons, he's not playing anywhere near as well as last year. When he brings his worst up to meet his best, people (including you) will get off his back.

  Rhino Richards said:

He is an ordinary 200cm rover that had everyone lulled as "the best 2nd ruck in the league". The dream has been shattered and reality hurts.

Pffft. half-a-dozen mediocre rounds and the "dream is shattered." What a crock! The guy impressed me between the Swans game in 2006 through to the start of this year. A slice of bad form and everyone's a doomsayer. You're STARVING for someone to blame Rhino, and it's showing. There's a certainly other ruckman on the list who should be WAY more under threat. I won't say his name but his initials are Mark Jamar.

  Rhino Richards said:

Unless both improve then both of them are in the gun. I guess team lining up waving their valuable picks at a 6 year player with attitude problems, lacks nous, limited tank and a terrible medical history and a 4 year player who good but is timid.

  Rhino Richards said:

At the moment, the whole process is left to the young ones.

And THAT'S why we're losing everything. It's not the quality of the players, it's their age and experience, as well as their mentors, who are just too few, and too busy stopping the bleeding on match day.

  Rhino Richards said:

Whelan, Wheatley and Junior are finished physically or otherwise. Robbo...dunno atm.

Whelan will come back for one more good season. Wheatley should go regardless... However, I think you may end up being right with all four.

  Rhino Richards said:

Bell, PJ are seven year AFL NQR footballers who just give us nothing. IMO they should go. And judgement calls need to be made on one or two of the younger players that just wont make it. The recruited class of 2004 is not bathing itself in glory at the moment and at least one of them is at the X roads.

PJ will stay. Just watch and we'll see who the professionals go for. But yes, at least one younger player will likely be gone. It'll be interesting to see who it is. Jeez I love that crossroads thing. It's a nice way of saying "he's not in good form at the moment." It's used all too often so the writer can say, either way, that they were right.

  Rhino Richards said:

I am not so sure why posters are so keen to hold onto some players who have had up to 7 years in the AFL and have not developed a consistent and competitive role in a bung awful third rate team.

Do you think maybe it's BECAUSE of the third rate team? Brock McLean was the next Judd in 2006, but surrounded by kids, suddenly he's in trouble. Likewise Bate and Dunn who created excitement with foils like Robbo and Neita. Take a look at our only good players. Green, Davey and Moloney. Is it a coincidence they're now matured and starting to own their positions?

Call me an apologist if you want, like I care anyway, but some of the most maligned players this season were our "must keeps" from a year or two ago. And vice versa. Everyone, including seasoned posters on here, need to keep their hats on... This squad is always going to wax and wane, week to week, month to month and season to season. Both individually and as a whole. You can't expect 22 sensational rounds from teenagers...

  Forever-Dee said:

Yesterday morning I took my car in to have two new tyres fitted - a couple of Hankooks of course......

When I dropped the car off I made sure I turned the music right down - I had been playing the Robbo cd - so I didn't want to burst their eardrums.

When I picked up the car later that morning I turned the key in the ignition and was startled to find that the Robbo CD had been cranked right up loud.

The track had been changed and was on Summer of '69.

Go Robbo, and Go Dees!

:D

He should have done a version of 'Summer of '69', renamed it the 'Winter of '64'.

  Dappa Dan said:

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Many players wouldn't make it onto a list that's threatening, but that doesn't mean they WILL be dropped. If Dunn or Bell were on the way out, they would have gone earlier, back before they showed what little they have.

It does not mean they will be kept.

If a player would not make it onto your list... then if that player is on your list then why would you keep him?

  Dappa Dan said:

Stupid comparison. Bell is way younger and can kick straight.

Both are ordinary footballers that cough the ball up with poor skills, lack of awareness and poor decision making. And we have kept both too long IMO

  Dappa Dan said:

Nope. Not duped. That's your opinion. I've watched him very closely, and I think he has what it takes to make it as a modern-day ruckman. He's no Farmer, but he's good. Like many demons, he's not playing anywhere near as well as last year. When he brings his worst up to meet his best, people (including you) will get off his back.

He has not got a clue about ruckmanship. I have never seen a ruckman with less physical presence in the centre and for a player who is lauded for his around the ground work his lack of defensive accountability is terrible. A neighbour who is a coach with an opposition club has questioned what he is doing at this level. BTW, I actually think there is not much gap between his best and worst. His mean/median is just not AFL standard

  Dappa Dan said:

Pffft. half-a-dozen mediocre rounds and the "dream is shattered." What a crock! The guy impressed me between the Swans game in 2006 through to the start of this year. A slice of bad form and everyone's a doomsayer. You're STARVING for someone to blame Rhino, and it's showing. There's a certainly other ruckman on the list who should be WAY more under threat. I won't say his name but his initials are Mark Jamar.

No. I was critical of him of last year when you bizarrely labelled him a gem and the best 2nd ruck in the AFL. I agree with you that other ruckman should be under more pressure but the fact they are not. PJ is playing 2nd ruck to everyone. Our rucks are crap at the moment and PJ is not even a first ruck given Jamar's injury (BTW, PJ is making Jamar look soooo good and thats a worry), questions about Meesen (they have not gone away). Hell, PJ was made to look bog ordinary by a 1st year 18yo green bean rookie earlier this year.

Seven years at AFL level......Enjoy the dream before it dissolves.

  Dappa Dan said:

And THAT'S why we're losing everything. It's not the quality of the players, it's their age and experience, as well as their mentors, who are just too few, and too busy stopping the bleeding on match day.

Its a test of character. I see first and second year players doing more than PJ

  Dappa Dan said:

Whelan will come back for one more good season. Wheatley should go regardless... However, I think you may end up being right with all four.

I doubt. I think injuries aside Robbo could get another year.

  Dappa Dan said:

PJ will stay. Just watch and we'll see who the professionals go for. But yes, at least one younger player will likely be gone. It'll be interesting to see who it is. Jeez I love that crossroads thing. It's a nice way of saying "he's not in good form at the moment." It's used all too often so the writer can say, either way, that they were right.

Crossroads means that unless you perform you are out. And for PJ he must be wondering why the lights are blinking red and there are warning signs.

  Dappa Dan said:

Do you think maybe it's BECAUSE of the third rate team? Brock McLean was the next Judd in 2006, but surrounded by kids, suddenly he's in trouble. Likewise Bate and Dunn who created excitement with foils like Robbo and Neita. Take a look at our only good players. Green, Davey and Moloney. Is it a coincidence they're now matured and starting to own their positions?

No.

Check post #36. There were issues about Bate and Dunn which emerged in their first and 2nd years. Dunn and to a lesser extent Bate have not addressed those issues. Green and Davey and to a lesser extent Moloney showed earlier in their career they had skills that could survive and do well at AFL level. I have not seen that from Bate and Dunn. While hope for the future is important, never let hope blind the reality of the situation.

Brock McLean was the next Judd according to Jaded and some other posters who got ahead of themselves. Brock's problem is that on one hand he believed the publicity and two his shortcomings will mean he will never be more than a good ordinary player. I hope MFC improve to the stage where McLean is a 4th/5th midfielder and not our No 1 midfielder. He aint got it.

  Dappa Dan said:

Call me an apologist if you want, like I care anyway, but some of the most maligned players this season were our "must keeps" from a year or two ago. And vice versa. Everyone, including seasoned posters on here, need to keep their hats on... This squad is always going to wax and wane, week to week, month to month and season to season. Both individually and as a whole. You can't expect 22 sensational rounds from teenagers...

You are an apologist.

No. For many posters questions have been asked of the PJs, Bells and Bartrams for a number of years with good reason. These comments have been ignored by other posters that clearly cherish mediocrity and get fooled by a fleeting moment that tickles your nuts but ultimately results in a disappoint and prevalence to blame other issues when the correct thought was...Maybe he was not that good after all.

In a shallow draft, we will definitely use picks 1,2, 17 and 33. (Assuming we win 4 or less games)

After that the talent pool will be shallow.

So we will need to get rid of 4 players, plus elevating Spencer and Jurrah permanently I hope.

In this scenario-

In - Picks 1, 2, 17, 33, Jurrah, Spencer

Out -

Delisted

Daniel Bell

Cameron Bruce

Mark Jamar

Retired

James McDonald

Russell Robertson

Matthew Whelan

  Cleveland_Steamer said:

In a shallow draft, we will definitely use picks 1,2, 17 and 33. (Assuming we win 4 or less games)

After that the talent pool will be shallow.

So we will need to get rid of 4 players, plus elevating Spencer and Jurrah permanently I hope.

In this scenario-

In - Picks 1, 2, 17, 33, Jurrah, Spencer

Out -

Delisted

Daniel Bell

Cameron Bruce

Mark Jamar

Retired

James McDonald

Russell Robertson

Matthew Whelan

Bruce is contracted til end of next year...at that time I suspect he may retire of own volition ( if the right words are whispered ) Til then I expect him to play albeitly on merit and as required

  Blistering said:

Excellent write up.

I hope the club persevered with Maric who had a tough gig yesterday. He was restricted during the preseason because of hip surgery, played a few games where he impressed with Casey and then didn't play last week because he was an emergency. Then he cops Geelong first up. As I said:

"Tough gig!"

Didn't Maric have the highest ranking ever for accuracy in front of goals at TAC Cup level?