ArtificialWisdom

My thoughts too was not fantastic but taking off my "I hate Dawes" goggles for 5 minutes for a more objective look, he was servicable played his role well enough.. Changes id like to see, but I suspect they wont happen not many played particularly bad compared to anyone else. Not saying they played well just nobody was noticably that much worse. I would expect anyone who played yesterday to bounce back next week. Out: Hogan (injured, no need to force him up on the short break, 1 week off could be good for him) Vince (something isnt quite right, injury or just form i dont know. Senior player though doubt he will actually go) Garlett (Needs to earn it again but could get a pass due to need, he will always struggle with yesterday's poor delivery) In: Pederson (Need marking replacement for Hoges) Oliver (if deemed ready, if not ANB) Kennedy (lives on the cusp of selection and if Garlett goes he is the logical repacement) Have to admit droping Vince ahead of such a tough oppo could be foolish, but im not sure he can continue to play when so out of form. I'd also like to add maybe 2 more Watts'. 1 on the wing one loose down back and the current one up forward if we had 3 of him yesterday would have been a comfortable win. Watched the last 2 minutes and noticed he even had to tell Vince where to lead to in the dying stages right before Vince beautifully hit up Lynch i50 in space.

Alright lets have a slightly more positive look at these points shall we. 1. Joy? no I dont think thats the word I or anyone else to describe that win. Relief, maybe but surely you can see the importance of that? Good teams find a way to win no matter how bad they have played, Hawthorn have made an art form of that this year. (yes they havn't been that bad but you get my point) 2. I loved the players response yesterday that know they played [censored] and we relieved to have the points time to move onto next week, exactly what we wanted to see, would you rather see them celebrating like the won the flag after a performance like that? They were clearly as dissapointed with their effort as you are 3. Bernie yeah he played [censored] and has most of the back half of the year. Your contract talk is horse [censored] though, if don't sign players and they wont stay! of the 3 you mentioned im not sure why Kent is getting hate he was alright yesterday and was good last week too he hasnt set the world on fire but he has been far more consistant as the years gone on. 4. Wagner has been poor since he got injured and I agree should probably be at casey but he has shown enough to be part of the future. Jones is in the side because he and Stretch are the only 2 players who can play as a running wingman. There is nobody who runs and spreads better than Jones. Pray we target a more skilfull player this offseason to take his spot but for now he is it (personaly i would rookie him, handy backup). Kent and Harmes were both pretty good yesterday yeah they made mistakes but they are hard, they put pressure on and are best 22 almost every week. Harmes might lose his spot on a back flank once salem gets his body right but for now he is playing it well. I'm as much of a Dawes hater as anyone else but he was more than servicable yesterday played his role, competed, if he brings that every week he will be a good holdover while others develops (i doubt he can do that consistantly though) 5.This win is infinitely more valuable than a 10 goal win. What do you learn from a 10 goal win? Usually just that the other team played [censored]. They go home yesterday knowing they played terribly... but could win anyway! When is the last time a melbourne side was able to find a way to win when nothing was going right? No, playing like that wont work often, but winning those types of games is the difference between finals and no finals. Nobody plays to their peak 22 weeks of the year, have to learn how to win without it. No, we shouldnt be 'happy' with how they played but no point being so negative, a wins a win and I would much rather that than be sitting here with a loss.

Didnt the MCC brag about how they spend millions of dollars a few years back to get rid of that bump? Not really improtant haha I agree with everything else you said

Couldn't agree more, I feel like every time I come on here someone has found a new and improved way to be pessimistic. Its like saying that Hawthorn isnt the best team of the last 5 years because the only thing they could do better than everyone else was win grand finals, take that away and what are they?

Tmac is very close to A grade, not quite, but certainly among the better tall defenders, especially at his age. Yeah he may turn it over once or twice but if he is going to continue to cost us 2 goals and save 5/6+ goals I'm happy to keep him in. He keeps improving, and the team keeps improving suddenly it drops to a goal a game or less. There isnt a single KPD in the league that goes through every game turnover free. His work at ground level is fantastic for a big guy, his tank is elite, his spoiling is close to if not already elite, his a very strong intercept mark. People need to start understanding that you dont have to be flawless to be among the best. Trading away our only developed KPD will cause us to finish bottom 4 again next year. Just because a player has currency doesnt mean we should trade him. You trade out what you have in excess not what you lack. Reality is we would be more likely to continue rising if we lost Hogan than if we lost TMac. We have Weid, Hulett, Watts all as potential young forwards for next year. Take out Tom we have who?

If people want proof that it is working they can look at the i50 count on the weekend. You dont keep a top 8 side to a count that low without an very well structured backline. People can kick and scream all they want about size and skill but there is no doubt they are structuring up better every week. Yeah it breaks down at times but the more often they play together the less frequent those breakdowns will become

Add Jetta and Hunt and you have a very raw very, young rebounding defence that needs to play as many games together as possible to gell more as a unit. Or like many keep saying we could just trade Tmac drop Omac and start a new rebuild I supose most of us are use to that by now.

I cant help sit here and wonder if all those who continually complain that "the scoreboard flattered us" after a loss are now going to chalk this up as a win because the scoreboard flattered them?

This is crap!! anyone who knows anything about footy knows that they way that defence worked today was the reason we were in the game at all. You want to blame individuals? fine look into the forward line that kicked 8 goals from 66 inside 50s. Wet or not that is not good enough.

Unlikely, but say WC kicks 10.23 tomorrow and we kick 14.7 does your logic mean we dont celebrate the win because it doesnt count? Cant keep claiming that we got a team on a bad day therefore the win doesnt count. If that is the case then Saints got us twice on a bad day therefore those losses doesn't count either! Come to think of it maybe the Essendon one doesnt count either cos we played [censored]. Maybe cull that sydney one cos it was wet, hawks we were coming off Alice, keep doing this we'll be undefeated in no time!. But you right thats a bit unfair I'll cull Suns and Brissy cos they are [censored] teams. Collingwood and Richmond were feeling a bit sad the days we played them they probably should be skipped too. Freo? well they are tanking cross that off. So if I go on we end up 0-0 ready to start a new season! I agree it didnt have the same impact as the Geelong game, not all wins are equal, but no win is worthless, you cant choose to ignore the fact we beat a top 8 calibre team otherwise that means we can ignore any game we want.

IN Chris Dawes, Billy Stretch, Sam Frost, Alex Neal-Bullen OUT Mitch White (Omitted), Jack Grimes (Omitted), Ben Kennedy (Omitted), Aaron Vandenberg (Hip) I agree with the outs but Dawes? gah

Why are we trying to recuit all of Essendon?? That team wasnt playing finals even when their players wernt banned. Surely that means they arn't that good doesnt it?

I dont think it is a lack of talent. He has shown some slick skills at times and thats what we need to compliment our hard nuts. The question is on his body. If he is contracted then great, but if not I think he would be a delist and rookie candidate. He has struggled to get his body right but so did Hunt. If he can play out this year at Casey and have a big preseason I think he is worth 1 more shot. Him linking up on a wing could be good.

My understanding if we trade future first rounder we aren't allowed to trade any more future picks from that draft. I like the look of that team though. I would think Stretch and one of Hulett and Weid would be in there for kennedy and another not sure who. I know people don't like it but Jetta will be in trouble if they keep playing Salem down back (and he stays fit).

I think most here could have told you that without GPS data.

I'm only in my early 20s so I have no recollection of us ever winning in perth.. I have gone through half of Primary school, all of High school, all of Uni and now have a job in the real world and we still havent won there in that time....

Too many people think that winning is the only sign of improvement. The reality is we have been 'in' every game excluding 3 maybe 4 right up until 3qtr time. Our percentage is actually pretty good, god only knows the last time it was 100+ for this long. We havent played 2 horrible games in a row. We have brought it right up to some pretty good teams, hopefully we can steal a result at some point. We all knew games like this were gonna happen, unfortunate it happened against the saints twice but why does everyone need to panic? We are gonna have more dissapointing losses doesnt mean we arn't improving.

I think you will find that is a reflection on our poor forward half pressure compared to theirs. They sprint to set up 'the wall' we jog and when you're playing against an outside team like the saints you get killed by that lack of defencive running. Kick ins should be the easiest thing to defend but we allow easy coast to coast transition. Even when we shut it down we do so on the wing instead on a flank. This is why our zone is so hit and miss. Too often our defenders are forced to push up and shutdown the transition on the wing when the forwards and mids have let slip. Defenders get it right and we get a chance for another forward entry if they don't we are hopelessly outnumbered and killed in the overlap. Our defenders currently have to play the midfield defence and back 50 defence. Is it the fault of our midfielders or forwards? I cant answer that maybe it is both. The other problem with where we force the turnover is if we go for a repeat entry we are kicking it to 40-50m out which is the worst place to kick to defenders can cover it to easily. You want deeper entries 20-30m is more dangerous if we can get those forward half turnovers happening more we should be able to help our scoring alot more. Helped stkilda, albiet they didnt kick straight.

Just has to be to the punt rd end doesnt it? Right over the demon army, maybe on a 45ish degree angle, low bullet about half goal post height. Coming from the members wing side of the ground. Man I just cant wait

1 more loss at Edihad about round 16ish next year. Then we finish 6th them 7th. An Elimation final battle of the up and comers at the MCG. Melbourne down by 4 points with 2 min on the clock McCartin takes a massive mark goes back and hits the post. Melbourne goes end to end and CP5 slams through a beauty from about 35 out and we stready the ship hold on to end their streak at 15 with the 1 game the actually would've wanted to win. Too much?

Could argue Hawthorn is in that bracket to was a good effort that game too given they are the best side of the era. Close calls are frustrating but they show improvement. I dont remeber the last time i went home from a hawthorn game and thought to myself "If we did a few more things right we could have won that" Usually it is more like "If we did a few more things right we could have kept it under 10 goals". Close calls mean we are getting better whether people want to believe it or not. In 2/3 years time a close call isnt going to be acceptable but right now its enough to provide hope for the future.

lack of improvement? This is out best year in a decade! No its not finals material but we are gonna finish in a log jam of teams a few games outside the 8. We are well placed to take a spot next year but we were never going to make it this year despite the fact we all wanted to dream. Can someone tell me the last time we were sitting with a percentage above 100 come round 18? it must of been a bloody long time ago. Aside from a handfull of games we have been there abouts comming to the final qtr. We lack class and outside run. Add those and we might just start pinch 3 or 4 more games. And suddenly we are right in the mix to finish 7/8th.

Brayshaw got caught a couple of times but he is a young kid coming back from a fair time out of AFL level. If he continues to get 20+ touches and settles back into the pace he will be ok. Still getting caught unaware in 3/4 weeks time then ask questions of him. He's got class and showed it a few times then got caught a few others. As for Vanders if he cant get his hands on it, then he needs to be given the time to properly recover and have a massive pre-season never understand out of form players 'managing' injuries. Viney it makes sense he is in form and vital but Vanders is out of form anyway so why play him? We will need his best next year more than we need his out of form self the next 6 weeks.

I said I wanted to see White in a challenging game and i was disapointed, no need to throw him away completely his other 2 games showed he has something but he doesnt look like it when under pressure. Maybe give him 1 more game? but is a likely thrashing going to do anything to help him? i dont think so. Wagner shouldn't have played imo, needed a week or 2 back at casey to get the run back in his legs but frost late withdrawal kinda ruined that plan. Now he is in no point dropping him, wasnt the worst by any means. Kennedy needs a couple of weeks back in the 2s and i think there will be big questions over him as a valuable pick up if he cant get up and be consistant. He was in and out of collingwood and hasnt done much to show he deserves to be any more than that here. AVB has had a poor year, need to have a full preseason and be injury free. Every game he does a few nice things but not gonna be what we want him to be without getting his body right. I like his marking ability as the 4th tall/medium size but he cant impact when he just doesnt look 100% there. In: Frost, Spencer**, Oliver*, Stretch Out: White, AVB, Grimes, Kennedy *ANB instead of Oliver could come in to play as a defensive half forward he is good in the contest and can be creative infront of goal. ** maybe go with the spencer experiment for a game see what happens we need a tall threat and hogan alone cant do it all. If Spencer shows something as a marking target then persist otherwise give Hulett a run the following week. Don't want to throw Hulett to the wolves first game against the flat trackers. *** 4 changes seems a bit excessive so i wouldnt expect it to happen but its a long trip on a 6 day break at a ground never win at. All things point to a thrashing unless we do something to mix it up.

If this not the most frequently used crock of crap I hear after a loss. Whenever we lose people come on here and scream about how we are so [censored], so usless, havent improved, should have lost by 10 goals, never gonna win again. Yes, It was a dissapointing day but if you are going to continue to follow a football team, any team, then your gonna have to learn to suck it up. Saints lost to the GC a coule of weeks ago!! you dont think that was just as disapointing for them? We are going to have shockers (this one by the way was not as doom and gloom as people seem to be saying) and we are going to have days we play well. Over time we will get more consistant and sitting at 101.3% shows that is happening already. You cant keep spouting crap about margin flattering us every time we lose. Yeah, Saints missed easy chances but we missed easy chances too do they not count? Fact is we were out worked, they put on more pressure, they do every time we play them. Odds on they will have another mighty dissapointing day before years end and we will have another good day. We are on a rollercoaster not a highway.