stevethemanjordan

It's a good point. I'm inclined to believe that the reason Frost was playing forward/ruck was because Roos doesn't believe Spencer or Gawn offer enough in other areas at the moment to play as the second ruck. However, if we were to pickup a ready made Ruckman next year, I believe Frost would take a KP down back. He's extremely competitive, strong and good in one-on-ones. If that were the case, you'd have Dunn and Frost taking key posts with McDonald taking the third tall and being able to intercept mark. Dunn, McDonald and Frost can all intercept mark. I know Howe is special in that he's an aeriel specialist, but I honestly don't think we're short of intercept markers. I think one of Howe or Garland will go and I reckon we'll get a Ruckman. That to me suggests a reshuffling of roles and positions slightly. I'm happy for Howe to stay and play the role if Garland leaves and we pickup McKenzie. But overall, I'd rather a player who can split teams apart back there than having an aerial specialist who makes questionable decisions when it comes to kicking.

I gotta say it. When I start reading threads in which certain posters start questioning Ben Newton's his value after some inconsistency in performances, you know there are some deeper issues surrounding the club. A player with a total of 9 games to his name. Garland Jamar McKenzie Grimes Bail Fitzpatrick Spencer Watts Dunn Howe Gawn Spencer Jones Terlich There's one common theme I see in that group of players. Inconsistency in performance. Some of them have questionable football smarts, talent and skill-level and others have questionable 'effort' and physicality in general. Some of them are our most senior players and still do not stamp their authority in our team with in their approach to the game. Others are unique in that their careers wouldn't have possibly lasted this long had they been at other clubs. Some of them are conditioned. Too used to losing. So much so that it's inevitable that they'll drop their heads as soon as the opposition get on top during a game. Resulting in selfish play for fear of making mistakes. Too used to going throwing in the towel. We've offloaded a whole host who had shown the same symptoms over the past couple of years and I have no doubt we'll see many on this list either traded or delisted. In my honest assessment of our list, I think there are still players on our list who are expendable and there are two areas that we need to address at the end of this season. Area 1: Kicking skills out of defence. I think we are in desperate need for one more backman who can split teams apart with their kicking skills. We've struggled for years with our transitional play from the backline to the forwardline and whilst some may argue there are a few contributing factors, I believe the skill level has been the major concern there. Garland and Howe are expendable. When I watch Garland play, he plays without a sense of purpose and without a sense of assuredness. His kicking is questionable. His form is and has been questionable for too long and therefore his position in the side will be questionable if he remains an irrelevant piece of the puzzle which so far, he is. As a senior player we should expect more. And he is one of many over the years who is yet to consistently get better with age. One great year in the middle of a bunch of 'meh' years and some bad ones. You cannot improve as a side if your senior players have such fluctuations in their form and we've have had far too many of them. Howe is similar in that he hasn't risen to any great heights and hasn't produced on a consistent basis although he has played less games and is younger than Garland. However, he holds more currency as he's out of contract this year and I'm sure sides will make a play for him. We need to go hard at someone like McKenzie at the end of the year. We need a mature body who is a decent one-on-one player but who has exceptional foot-skills. A side must have at least two elite kickers in their back six. Sides need a strong mix of attributes from their back six but kicking skills are unquestionably important. Salem and (insert player) - Foot Skills McDonald and Lumumba - Run and carry Jetta and Dunn - Lock-down defenders Frost - Versatility Unltimately, you'd love to be able to draft players who possess a number of 'elite' attributes. Hawthorn have managed to do it, which is why they are far superior to most sides. Area 2 : A Ruckman Obvious to most, whilst Jamar battles admirably hard in the ruck he offers little around the ground. He's most definitely not as fit as you need to be as a modern day ruckman, especially one who's playing pretty much without support. His skills have always been questionable as well as his decision making and he is another senior player on the long list of NQR's. Form fluctuations, one AA year and plenty of average ones. Again, hasn't done the MFC a whole lot of good. On an even more worrying note we have backup ruckmen in Spencer and Fitzpatrick (who is now playing as a FB in the VFL side which surely says something about the way he Rucks). Spencer as we know competes hard but I have literally seen him do nothing at AFL level that would make me think he'll ever get picked unless all of the above get injured. And then of course there's Gawn. A bloke who without a doubt could be an extremely valuable player. Has size, has good aggression, can take a contested mark and can kick a goal but another who for whatever reason, doesn't quite get what it takes to cut the grade. To me his personality exemplifies the way he plays footy. It's all just a bit of a kick in the park. Happy to be on an AFL list, happy to be the funny guy around the club. Another who perhaps has been affected by the culture that was around upon his arrival. No fierce drive or desire to be the best he can be. Personalities of this nature standout like a sore thumb if drafted into a 'kick in the park' club-like environment which ours has been.. So, without question we'll be going after someone. Leuenberger, Bellchambers and Kreuzer are all players who providing fit, would easily get the gig if at our club. They're all free agents and I'm sure we'll have a crack at one. Lastly, further midfield support: There's no doubting we've been gifted with some genuinely exciting young midfielders. But gosh darn do we need to develop and nurture them the right way. Viney Tyson Brayshaw Petracca JKH Vandenberg and to a lesser extent: Newton Michie Stretch ANB Toumpas There's no doubt we still need more support added. Cross has been a great addition as a standard setter for our younger players but he may not be kicking around next year. Which leaves Jones, Vince and Lumumba - (when playing through the middle) - as our experience which is clearly not enough. We've got to go hard for a genuine A grade gun mid should be... Names have already been thrown around so I'll leave that to posters. I'd also be into going for a second-tier mid/Selwood type player. Someone who will be an upgrade on some of NQR's, provide plenty of run and will be another breath of fresh air to a semi stale list. Obviously we are early in the season, but if we address those areas and we continue to build and develop our younger players coming through and continue to build a really professional environment, next year could be the year we jump the blocks. We'll have ridded pretty much all of the virus and with personalities like Viney, Hogan, Brayshaw and co under the tutelage of the quality coaches we have, 2016 could be the year we finally take off. Dees.

Jack Watts. Easily the most scrutinised AFL player to ever play the game. Something that must be unexplainably hard to deal with on an individual level. I certainly can't imagine how hard it must be for him. For that, I feel incredibly sorry for the guy. On a club level. I am still angry and resentful for the way in which we handled him. We clearly were a basket-case club back then with the wrong people in power on most lines at our club. We gifted him games, as we did for many young players over that period. We did not instil or develop any style of play into his game. He was not made to earn games by working on areas of his game that were and still are not up to AFL standard. And this is the predicament we find ourselves in. If this was any other 100 game player, they would be playing in the VFL as we speak for the simple reason that the intensity, desire, physical approach and defensive efforts of the his game do not meet the requirements of what is acceptable for an AFL footballer. I am confident of that. I am also confident in my opinion in that Paul Roos doesn't know what to do with him. He has a player who is supremely talented and skilful but clearly believes that developing weakness's of Watts' game would be best in the Melbourne side rather than the VFL side. Why is this? Is it because Roos believes that our team in general are light on for kicking skills and decision making skills and therefore Watts' stronger attributes outweigh his weak ones in this current Melbourne outfit? Is it because Roos believes dropping Watts to the VFL to work on some of these glaring weakness's would actually do more harm than good for this particular individual in these set of circumstances? Is it a combination? Whether posters like it or not, Watts will continue to be criticised for his inherent lack of intensity and desire to win the ball which sticks out like a sore thumb at AFL level. Unfortunately it's something that in my eyes is almost unfixable now. All humans who play the game have different 'natural' levels of competitiveness and physicality in their makeup. That is something that is developed much much earlier on in the life of a human being and it's to do with the environment the individual is brought up in. Let's compare Jack Viney's levels of competitiveness and physicality to that of Watts' before they made it to AFL lists. They are worlds apart. Jack Watts has never ever displayed naturally high levels of those two attributes and it was up to the club from day dot to make sure they could do everything in their power to develop those areas as best they could whilst nurturing the skills he does possess as well as the talent he clearly possesses. But the club failed miserably at that. Miserably. And now I fear he is too far into his career to be able to reprogram some of those traits..... Unless of course the club did something outlandish by putting him into contact with a Shaman who were to administer Ayahuasca to young Jack who would then come to the epiphany that the inherent lack of competitiveness and physicality in his game is in fact a direct reflection of fear, which after coming to a cognitive understanding of, would then be able to overcome by consciously training his mind and eventually reprogramming it. I fear that may just be a pipe-dream. So I'll continue to ride the rollercoaster until it stops, or until I'm thrown off.

So would I. I reckon he has the 'animal' and brute strength to go with him. Definitely not the running ability at this stage. What an acquisition he is though.

Love the part where Jones is on the bench saying, 'He'll kick this, I'm telling ya' he'll kick this. He eats these moments.' In reference to Hogan before he has a shot at goal on the half-time siren. God damn I love him.

As a poster has previously said, with a mounting injury list over ther past couple of weeks and with a couple of sore bodies in Tyson and Michie who may also pull out, the blokes who come in will change the side significantly. Not for the better. Freo have a full strength side and with Walters and Ballantyne playing, the loss of Jetta is huge. As is Kent for our forward pressuring ability and speed. It might get ugly this one. Don't really care about the ins at this stage. More concerned about how long the 'outs' will be out for.

Agree he made an impact when he came on, was good to see. I'm sure I saw him get a knock to the ribs or stomach during that last quarter. He was barely moving after it happened. He couldn't run for most of the last quarter. I'm not so sure he'll be right this week.

Tyson was a different case. He had hardly played and therefore hadn't cemented a spot in their side unlike Treloar and Shiel. Tyson was also still under contract and we actually head-hunted him and made a very bold move considering the injuries he had during his first couple of seasons. Treloar and Shiel are currently coming out of contract, will have a host of Victorian clubs lining up and are the best two mids GWS have got and I just don't see why they'd come to us over other Victorian sides who could offer as much money and would be a more attractive destionation as a club. Surely you can see the differences in scenarios? I disagree. They'll want ready made AFL players with experience or picks that they can then trade for players like that. Their desire for top draft picks is becoming less and less. All of they're young players who have been there from the start are starting to perform. They'll want more blokes like Patful and Griffen to continue to support and guide their young crop of talented leaders.

As much as I'd love either of them, I would be astonished if we were to get either one of Shiel or Treloar. I just don't see the appeal of coming to a side who are behind GWS in terms of development. It'd have to be a bucket load of money. Although I'm sure they'd be two players who'd be on some very decent coin as we speak. Can't see it happening.

I hope that we are able to compete right until the very end. As long time suffering supporters, I'm not sure how many on here can be happy with only effort. My patience has worn thin and really we should be competing hard every week which should keep us in most games. The lapse against GWS and the flood of unanswered goals they kicked in the second half is still astonishing and I don't quite know what to deduce from it. The Adelaide game was promising but still very frustrating to watch. There's still a definite inherent lack of decision making and skill execution from a bunch of players. We had many forward entries in that first half but so many were just long kicks to contests favouring the opposition. There were times the ball wasn't moved quickly enough from certain plays. We had to work so hard for our goals, mainly thanks to our team-mates making it extremely difficult for our forwards to mark the ball. Whereas the ease in which they scored all of their goals in the first half was an extreme contrast. Signs like that are always worrying. If we can't manage to score easily enough again from inside 50 entries and forward movement and Richmond match our intensity all game then we'll lose simply because of our lack of skill, decision making and inability to convert forward entries. The only way I see us winning is by us either comprehensively outworking them the whole game or by them again being inaccurate and losing it themselves.

No. We simply don't have the skill to match it with half the sides in the AFL.

I don't know why. I'm genuinely intrigued as to why some of our supporters are surprised about such things. The bloke is a classy, hardened AFL player with experience and form on his side. Any player of that calibre is going to be of 'value' to us.

We will continue to lose if we don't capitalise on our inside 50's. It's not really as a simple as 'if we kick straight we'll win'. The first quarter of yesterday's game showed exactly this. We were absolutely all over Adelaide, yet we went into quarter time only a few points up. Effort isn't a problem for us. It's clear we can compete and match it against sides. But we really need to be creating a lot more shots on goal from our forward entries. Not just bang it in.

Would just like to bump this thread for this post which seems to represent many posters' views on these particular players. I'd also like to represent other posters' views on these players by stating the following: These players are not whipping boys. They are criticised fairly for their worth as footballers to our side just as any player is who is in questionable form or who doesn't offer enough at AFL level. Clearly, the coaches agree. Please shut-up. The end.

Not fast enough to make the cut at AFL level I'm afraid. Spencer is behind Gawn in terms of versatility, regardless of your opinion of their form to date. These days, unless you're Shane Mumford, ruckmen need to be able to contribute around the ground which includes: taking contested marks, providing strong contests, an understanding of running patterns, to be able to go forward and hit the scoreboard and to intercept mark and help out in defence. I can't say I've ever seen Spencer achieve that consistently in a game at AFL level. Unfortunately for Spencer, I think he's days are numbered. We'll be looking at a ruckman via FA next year or in a trade. It'll have to be a priority you'd think with Jamar nearly at the end. Luey will be on the radar as a FA. As for team ins, if it were up to me it'd be making the following: Ins: Dawes and Vince Outs : Toumpas and JKH JKH would be very very unlucky but I'd be doing it purely for match-ups. I believe Vince's value is greater than that of JKH's in this game. We need that extra experienced AFL hardened player to go through the middle. And I'd be playing Vince on Griffen for part of the game.

That's interesting. Wonder how much truth there is to it considering Toumpas in my eyes is a very similar player in terms of attributes. They're very similar in size too. The only difference is the way in which they've been handled from when they were drafted. Aish plays with confidence. Toumpas doesn't. Yet.

I was definitely one stating that if he didn't perform this year, then I have no doubt the club would be happy for him to leave via FA. It's not writing his career off. He's had a bloody career. It's realising as a supporter and a club that our senior players at age 27 should now be playing consistently good football like Jones is. I think it's absolutely fair to say Garland has to have a consistently solid year in the 22 if he wants to be part of the future.

Garland's criticism was warranted. Just as congratulations for his game over the weekend were warranted. (Not that he starred). He just did his job. Grimes' fall has been sad on an individual level. But as a supporter of the club, I'm happy we've now got guys who are being picked ahead of him. We need all our players to be playing consistently good footy week in/week out if we want to see serious improvement this year.

Some observations from level two MCC: Before this game I felt we were a chance only if we were first to the ball, hardest at the contest and tackled with ferocity and intent for most of the day. Which we did. Without doubt. I knew like most others do that we couldn't try and match it with them skill wise and there were still patches of play in which they moved the ball with such ease from one end of the ground to the other. They also hit more targets inside their forward 50. We wasted many opportunities with poor inside 50 entries due to decisions and footskills. But we know that is all a work in progress. And by work in progress, I mean we still need to add plenty more quality to this side over the next couple of years. The most pleasing thing was that most on the list today contributed to some degree. Nobody had a howler. Toumpas I felt for for not being able to get into the game and making a few bad decisions early on. Very happy with the consistency of most players. Others need to improve, or we need to continue to get skilled players around them. For the most part, our team is a hell of a lot more balanced. Both in having players who are smart and can use it and who also compete hard.

Frost isn't going anywhere. His pressure, tackling and willingness to chase keeps him in the team. What a win.

Not overly excited about seeing Matt Jones kicking the ball around with a few others near the MCC at the minute. Really hoping there are no late withdrawals.

Yes yes, I'm just prodding. I think it's the strongest round 1 Melbourne side I've seen in a while. Very good looking sheet of paper.

I don't.

Surely Saty would be pulling his hair out with some of the outs for this weekend... McKenzie, Grimes, Bail, Matt Jones. Training form means 'whaaaaaaaaaat'?

I hear the worry and share it but in my opinion the source of the worry comes from somewhere else. I believe, (like others) that our midfield is actually competitive these days. It's clear we've added both depth and talent to it and key stats suggest we've improved hugely in that area of the ground. Our midfield has and is improving. It's our skill level, decision making and confidence of a handful of the same blokes that still let us down and did last year. Our inability to move the ball forward effectively from our backhalf into our forwardline is now our biggest weakness. Spotting up those short 20 metre targets and honouring those leads. It's something we've seen a bit more of through the NAB series but last year there were certain players in our backhalf that wouldn't even try and hit them for fear of making mistakes. Confidence and skill level both play a part. It's one area we need to address at the end of this season without doubt. There's a reason Salem has been moved back there. I reckon we'll match it with Gold Coast's midfield in terms of getting our hands on the ball first. But it will be how efficient we are going forward from there as well as from our backhalf that will tell the tale on the day. And of course any lapse in competitiveness from the team.