No Pickett

No Brown

No Godfrey

No Bizzell

All 4 guys have provided great hardness for us over the years. When you add the fact that Neitz is almost finished and struggles to get to contests like he used to, we could be softer than ever in 2008.

Who will be our enforcers?

Maybe Sylvia, Jones, Brock and Bate will all fly the flag?

Will Bailey resurrect Brad Miller into the bruiser he used to be?

A fit Rivers and Whelan will no doubt add much toughness and hardness, and will give Carroll great support down back.

I guess it all depends on Bailey and the mindset he instills. Petterd and Bartram will also be big inclusions, they love to attack the contest.

Actually the more I think about it, the more I see that our young players are not the type to take a backward step.

Just get into the gym boys!!

i hear Martin Pike is making a comeback in 08 for us

that will help

By losing those four players mentioned, it wouldn't make us softer. Three of the four played zoning roles in Brown, Ward and Biz and this year Pickett was so unfit he couldn't get the the contest to apply and physical pressure. Brown and Biz had no fear when it came to winning the footy but I wouldn't say they had a strong pressence on the field.

not sure about softer in 2008 but you would have to think that the turnover count should drop with the departures of Brown,Godfrey and Ward

not sure about softer in 2008 but you would have to think that the turnover count should drop with the departures of Brown,Godfrey and Ward

Damn right it will, but with them gone, who will i whinge about being in the side????

This is weird

Who will be our enforcers?

Why do posters get so mislead with tough guys and enforcers when clearly the tried and true way to intimidate the opposition is to consistently win the ball and to use it to best advantage and to be hard at the contested ball (and not the man)?

None of those retiring or delisted were doing that.

Dr Drake has covered the assessment of the players well.

Spot on Rhino.

Hurt the competition where it counts, the score board. No better way to intimidate other teams than by showing superior skills and flogging the lot of them!!!

Let's get this straight. Just because Godfrey had a head that made an unloved trailer proud didn't make him tough. Now I'm not saying he was soft, but he won't go down in my hardness stakes.

Interesting H.

Depends how we define tough/hard/rough. For me, toughness and hardness are similar. It's about never shirking, putting your head over the ball no matter what the situation and throwing yourself in with 100% effort. I think Godders satisfies these criteria. I don't think he can be accused of failing to go when it was his turn.

Roughness, though, is more that mean streak that certain players have. The desire to hurt the opposition and to pounce on opportunities to crunch a body. I wouldn't put Godders in this category. He didn't hurt blokes and it wasn't his style to dish off big hits. Rather, he focused on hunting the ball in a tough manner.

Whatever words are used, IMO there are differences in how people interpret toughness/hardness. I'd agree with you if you are saying that Godders was not "rough". But not "tough or hard" - I disagree.

Interesting H.

Depends how we define tough/hard/rough. For me, toughness and hardness are similar. It's about never shirking, putting your head over the ball no matter what the situation and throwing yourself in with 100% effort. I think Godders satisfies these criteria. I don't think he can be accused of failing to go when it was his turn.

Roughness, though, is more that mean streak that certain players have. The desire to hurt the opposition and to pounce on opportunities to crunch a body. I wouldn't put Godders in this category. He didn't hurt blokes and it wasn't his style to dish off big hits. Rather, he focused on hunting the ball in a tough manner.

Whatever words are used, IMO there are differences in how people interpret toughness/hardness. I'd agree with you if you are saying that Godders was not "rough". But not "tough or hard" - I disagree.

Hmmm

The truly truly 'hard' footballers for me, and I agree it's subjective, are the players that are continually first to the contested ball.

Players like Matthews, Voss, Williams, Kelly and recently Judd, Kerr, West, Black, Riccuito and even our own Junior. They're hard. I've never associated Godfrey as being a first dibs footballer. Now you may say that it's his lack of skill and not effort that's procluded him from consistently getting his hands first on the ball, but for me, he just hasn't been that hard. He's ok and far better than many in the hardness stakes to wear the red and blue, but he wasn't overly hard or 'tough' by my evaluation.

Each to their own.

Hmmm

The truly truly 'hard' footballers for me, and I agree it's subjective, are the players that are continually first to the contested ball.

Fair enough. You're going by a different definition to me. Under your interpretation, Godfrey wouldn't be in the hard category. But neither would any player who doesn't possess the ability to continually get to the fall of the ball in close.

I do think however that hardness needs to be separated from ability.

Fair enough. You're going by a different definition to me. Under your interpretation, Godfrey wouldn't be in the hard category. But neither would any player who doesn't possess the ability to continually get to the fall of the ball in close.

I think Godfrey's hardness was pretty well demonstrated by his ability to get up after being punched or elbowed in the guts off the play and get up and run to the next contest. I saw that a number of times.

The truly truly 'hard' footballers for me, and I agree it's subjective, are the players that are continually first to the contested ball.

Players like Matthews, Voss, Williams, Kelly and recently Judd, Kerr, West, Black, Riccuito and even our own Junior

I'm not 100% sure about Junior is always first to the contested ball - there's a reason he makes so many tackles. I think Jones gets over the ball.

Under your interpretation, Godfrey wouldn't be in the hard category. But neither would any player who doesn't possess the ability to continually get to the fall of the ball in close.

True Scoop, and that's why courage is different to 'hard'. Many courageous players aren't necessarily 'hard'.

As for Junior ? I agree Old, not overly hard. I was trying to give an example close to home, but in truth, there's probably not much difference between the two and it's not a great example.

My take is that Bails has decided to put the players out on a limb and see how they handle the pressure.

I cant say Im happy with Godfreys delisting, and think it puts extra pressure on Junior and Clint.

Yes you arent going to win a premiership with him, but does anyone think we are in the 'window"?

We dont have star midfielders and to win games or more likely scratch out wins, we need stoppers.

His opponent this last year was not automatically in the oppositions best, which you cant say about Ward, Miller and oftentimes Brown and Bell.

If you get rid of Godders, why wouldnt you delist Fergs? He's slow and fearless as well.

We are not a team chock ablock full of gutsy warriors.

And if you are going to compare "hardness" you dont go back thirty years.

You may as well say Batman is not as tough as Superman.

Hard is tough. I like the line I heard on SEN one day about a player being as tough as "old goats knees".

Matthew Lappin is tough. Doggy Brown is tough. Junior is tough.

Simon was tough, he should have got another year.

And if you are going to compare "hardness" you dont go back thirty years.

You may as well say Batman is not as tough as Superman.

Hard is tough. I like the line I heard on SEN one day about a player being as tough as "old goats knees".

Matthew Lappin is tough. Doggy Brown is tough. Junior is tough.

Simon was tough, he should have got another year.

My take is that it's been so long since the MFC has produced truly hard one on one contested footballers who can not only withstand finals pressure but thrive in it that our supporters have lost sight of what's really hard.

And if I want to go back 5 years, 10, or 30 I will.

My other take is that 'Bails' got rid of Godfrey because ...... wait for it...... he's not good enough. Wow.

And Matty Lapin wasn't 'tough'. We clearly see our footy differently. I'm happy to leave it at that.

My take is that it's been so long since the MFC has produced truly hard one on one contested footballers who can not only withstand finals pressure but thrive in it that our supporters have lost sight of what's really hard.

Who do you think was the last player we had like this?

Personally I think we need another Todd Viney type of midfielder...

Who do you think was the last player we had like this?

Personally I think we need another Todd Viney type of midfielder...

You're right, Todd would be the last. Some supporters think Tingay was hard, but he was a rung below my expectations.

I have high hopes that McLean, Jones, and Bartram can redress the balance.

We should pick up Paul Licura in the PSD when Collingwood de-list him. That'll up our toughness.....

We should pick up Paul Licura in the PSD when Collingwood de-list him. That'll up our toughness.....

licuria will be 30 next year, there is no point picking him up.

Franky, if we're not in the 'window' then surely we are less likely to keep depth players.

Remember that there are more opportunities to cull after trade week. This is just the first batch that have no currency.

I think Godfrey's hardness was pretty well demonstrated by his ability to get up after being punched or elbowed in the guts off the play and get up and run to the next contest. I saw that a number of times.

Maybe that's the result of just focusing on your opponent, and not the ball. The better taggers such as K.Cornes, Kirk, Ling, Stenglein, Rawlings, are not afraid to put their head over the ball to get their own possessions. That's hardness.

Franky, if we're not in the 'window' then surely we are less likely to keep depth players.

Bob,

Im reasonably comfortable that Simon wasnt up to it.

Footy clubs have good reason to reward effort though.

Without both Brown (your boy) and Godfrey our loss is effort but not skill.

I dont see Godfrey as a waste of space if Wheels loses his spot to Bartam.

If Junior struggles to get in the ones next year, which I reckon will be his last, who will get the stopper job?

Buckley? Dunn ... maybe.

Maybe that's the result of just focusing on your opponent, and not the ball. The better taggers such as K.Cornes, Kirk, Ling, Stenglein, Rawlings, are not afraid to put their head over the ball to get their own possessions. That's hardness.

Ah, the Captain. Now he's hard.

Also, many confuse brave with hard.

I dont see Godfrey as a waste of space if Wheels loses his spot to Bartam.

Even I prefer Whelan to Godfrey.

Whelan + Bartram >> Bartram + Godfrey

Also, many confuse brave with hard.

hard v brave reminds me of fast v quick a few years back.

But I think I know what you mean - Green is a good example - brave but not hard.

In 2006, when we were the top tackling side in the league, we were not hard, just ferocious at the ball. We did not intimidate players out of contests, and away from the ball, our players did it with sheer brute force and excellent tackling. All that we need to do to regain that is to hit the gym and put back the muscle and bulk that was lost over the last pre-season and this year, and to put back the desire for the ball into the minds of the players. Bailey's first mission as coach is to put pride and self belief back into the team, and then to instill in them a respect for the other 21 guys that are out on the field with them at the same time. We do not need to have a team of enforcers out on the paddock to scare the opposition, having 22 guys out there that will try their hardest to get the ball away from you at any oppertunity should be sufficient enough. We need to look at Brisbanes game plan of a few years ago when they were winning premierships easily, and start to hunt in packs again, having 3 players attacking the ball and the player with it.

That, as opposed to a player like Pickett running thru the occasional opponent should be enough to intimidate most sides.