So the theory is that Gawn agreed to play more time as a forward to accommodate Grundy and then reneged... when?

10 hours ago, rjay said:

I'm not talking about social habits...at all.

I'm talking about on ground performance and we're the club who were siting on top of the AFL world in 2021 have slid down to basically a rebuild with nothing more to show for it.

That is on the board.

All clubs have the same social habits, if you think they don't you're dreaming and if you think Max could stop it or any captain for that matter you're also dreaming.

Spot on...

Right, well you’ve shifted the goalposts then.

The entire time I’ve been discussing the perceived “culture” of the club, which is largely the off field behaviours and standards of the playing group.

Which is Max and the other leaders’ domain, not the board or CEO.

15 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Dont rate Max as a captain and never have.

Champion player but.

Max is a lead by example on field leader but leadership is so much more than that. Viney is the same. 'watch me do it'

A good Captain example would be Luke Hodge that led by example as a player but also marshalled his players and directed them on field, etc. AS well he directed his leadership group what to do so that they could impart that on to their forwards, midfield defence etc.

Our on field leadership has been wanting in many big games and the St Kilda game was a shining example of how bad it was.

57 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

I'd be interested to know what he did say, so care to share any key points or links to something that does?

The Ox's comments was during an interview with SEN and related to the camp down at Lorne

He mentioned a few times that he had witnessed the players getting up to no good. He didn't elaborate but repeated himself a few times

My reading off of it was that the listeners needed to fill in the gaps as he wasn't prepared to name names or describe what the activities were (that he witnessed)

39 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

So the theory is that Gawn agreed to play more time as a forward to accommodate Grundy and then reneged... when?

Good question. I suspect it had a bit to do with Grundy's fitness. When he first played he was coming back off a longer term injury and was way too unfit for the time of running that Max does. Then it was clear that Grundy was not a forward and he couldn't. play anywhere else. As it turns out neither could Max

The relationship looked like it soured and that became blindingly obvious when Grundy was not selected to play after round 17 in 2023. Shocking that he didn't play against the pies or carlton in the finals

Not sure how much is was Max's demands vs the coaches but it all went south.

I guess its a credit that the reasons have never leaked and each party speaks highly of the other.

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

The Ox's comments was during an interview with SEN and related to the camp down at Lorne

He mentioned a few times that he had witnessed the players getting up to no good. He didn't elaborate but repeated himself a few times

My reading off of it was that the listeners needed to fill in the gaps as he wasn't prepared to name names or describe what the activities were (that he witnessed)

The Lorne camp where Oliver left after a day or so? Sounds like he was a disruptive influence

Just now, jnrmac said:

The Lorne camp where Oliver left after a day or so? Sounds like he was a disruptive influence

That's right

And my comments re Gawn are directly related to Goodwin

If the coach was going to cop a lot of the blame (here) about the behaviour of a number of the players, then what about the captain? And the so-called leadership group?

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Good question. I suspect it had a bit to do with Grundy's fitness. When he first played he was coming back off a longer term injury and was way too unfit for the time of running that Max does. Then it was clear that Grundy was not a forward and he couldn't. play anywhere else. As it turns out neither could Max

The relationship looked like it soured and that became blindingly obvious when Grundy was not selected to play after round 17 in 2023. Shocking that he didn't play against the pies or carlton in the finals

Not sure how much is was Max's demands vs the coaches but it all went south.

I guess its a credit that the reasons have never leaked and each party speaks highly of the other.

I've said on here before that you can extract anything you want to out of stats, so I'm being a bit hypocritical here, but if you look at centre bounce attendance in 2023, Grundy was in the centre more than Max in Round 1. In Round 2 Max got injured early. Grundy did 75% of the ruckwork that day and then was our main ruck for the next three weeks. (Perhaps because of the fitness you mentioned, in that shport period, he never got to the 90% centre bounce attendance that Max often does.)

When Max returned, they had close to 50/50 centre bounce attendance until the bye - eight games.

After the bye, Grundy did less, but was still spending good periods as the centre bounce ruck. He was dropped before Round 18 and that was the end.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that Gawn let his ego get in the way and ruined the chance for this combination to work. But, as I asked earlier, when?

Was it at the start of the season? If so, did Goodwin and the FD seriously intend to make Grundy our primary ruck and play Gawn as a 75% forward? If so - bizarre strategy. As I said in a previous post, Gawn has never kicked more than 16 goals in a season. Was the idea that the captain and one of the best ruck of modern times would play as a decoy?

Was it somewhere near the bye? This is plausible, and would warrant the "big ego", "[censored] leader" calls IF Grundy was playing well. He was not. Apart from the period when Gawn was out, where Grundy had one exceptional game and a couple of good ones, I remember Grundy being very mediocre wherever he played at Melbourne.

Was it near finals, leading to Grundy being ignored and Schache being named as sub in the famous semi? It could have been, but is the claim that Max knew Grundy in the ruck and him forward had a chance of working but let his own selfishness get in the way? Max, presumably doesn't have such an outsize influence he can literally influence gameday coaching strategy. So why, if we were so desperate for a tall to supplement a barely moving Tom McDonald, did Goodwin leave Schache as un unused sub against Carlton?

Let's say that Gawn DID let his ego get in the way and quietly campaigned for the FD to give Grundy a lesser role or drop him. The idea that if that hadn't happened - that if he had swallowed his pride and played as a near-permanent forward - we would have been a better team has just never rung true to me.

But to me, the far far more likely scenario is that the FD had a harebrained idea when it became clear Grundy was gettable. They never properly thought it through. They saw a big name and didn't spend anywhere near enough time working out how that big name would fit into a team that already had his one and only position well and truly covered. They got to halfway through the year and realised just that - they'd [censored] up. They dropped him. That's it.

Last few pages should be put on a Max Gawn thread.

Stay on topic please people, getting majorly disrailed...

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Max is a lead by example on field leader but leadership is so much more than that. Viney is the same. 'watch me do it'

A good Captain example would be Luke Hodge that led by example as a player but also marshalled his players and directed them on field, etc. AS well he directed his leadership group what to do so that they could impart that on to their forwards, midfield defence etc.

Our on field leadership has been wanting in many big games and the St Kilda game was a shining example of how bad it was.

like getting done for drink driving a few days before a final??

20 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

I've said on here before that you can extract anything you want to out of stats, so I'm being a bit hypocritical here, but if you look at centre bounce attendance in 2023, Grundy was in the centre more than Max in Round 1. In Round 2 Max got injured early. Grundy did 75% of the ruckwork that day and then was our main ruck for the next three weeks. (Perhaps because of the fitness you mentioned, in that shport period, he never got to the 90% centre bounce attendance that Max often does.)

When Max returned, they had close to 50/50 centre bounce attendance until the bye - eight games.

After the bye, Grundy did less, but was still spending good periods as the centre bounce ruck. He was dropped before Round 18 and that was the end.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that Gawn let his ego get in the way and ruined the chance for this combination to work. But, as I asked earlier, when?

Was it at the start of the season? If so, did Goodwin and the FD seriously intend to make Grundy our primary ruck and play Gawn as a 75% forward? If so - bizarre strategy. As I said in a previous post, Gawn has never kicked more than 16 goals in a season. Was the idea that the captain and one of the best ruck of modern times would play as a decoy?

Was it somewhere near the bye? This is plausible, and would warrant the "big ego", "[censored] leader" calls IF Grundy was playing well. He was not. Apart from the period when Gawn was out, where Grundy had one exceptional game and a couple of good ones, I remember Grundy being very mediocre wherever he played at Melbourne.

Was it near finals, leading to Grundy being ignored and Schache being named as sub in the famous semi? It could have been, but is the claim that Max knew Grundy in the ruck and him forward had a chance of working but let his own selfishness get in the way? Max, presumably doesn't have such an outsize influence he can literally influence gameday coaching strategy. So why, if we were so desperate for a tall to supplement a barely moving Tom McDonald, did Goodwin leave Schache as un unused sub against Carlton?

Let's say that Gawn DID let his ego get in the way and quietly campaigned for the FD to give Grundy a lesser role or drop him. The idea that if that hadn't happened - that if he had swallowed his pride and played as a near-permanent forward - we would have been a better team has just never rung true to me.

But to me, the far far more likely scenario is that the FD had a harebrained idea when it became clear Grundy was gettable. They never properly thought it through. They saw a big name and didn't spend anywhere near enough time working out how that big name would fit into a team that already had his one and only position well and truly covered. They got to halfway through the year and realised just that - they'd [censored] up. They dropped him. That's it.

Sure, there's all that, but there was a game to be won against Carlton (SF)

Whether Gawn is an excellent forward or not, is not the question. It was that Gawn was our only choice forward (T-Mac was our only other KPF and he was almost completely incapacitated ... should not have played at all)

Let's not forget that all of Melksham, Petty, Brown & JVR were unavailable. And Fritsch was on one leg

And we had a ready made replacement for the ruck duties (Grundy)

Gawn should have been told to play forward in that SF, it's as simple as that. Or, he puts his hand up to play forward in a selfless act

So it was fairly simple ... T-Mac out Grundy in. And we play another runner as the sub, instead of Schache

How is all this related to this thread? We lack on field leadership. The move to get a player like Steele is the pointer

I see one person after another here wanting to blame the team for choking in that 2003 SF but we lost the match at the selection table

The other factor was the risk of only playing one ruckman who was going into that SF with a broken toe (Gawn)

Edited 18 hours ago18 hr by Macca

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

Sure, there's all that, but there was a game to be won against Carlton (SF)

Whether Gawn is an excellent forward or not, is not the question. It was that Gawn was our only choice forward (T-Mac was our only other KPF and he was almost completely incapacitated ... should not have played at all)

Let's not forget that all of Melksham, Petty, Brown & JVR were unavailable. And Fritsch was on one leg

And we had a ready made replacement for the ruck duties (Grundy)

Gawn should have been told to play forward in that SF, it's as simple as that. Or, he puts his hand up to play forward in a selfless act

So it was fairly simple ... T-Mac out Grundy in. And we play another runner as the sub, instead of Schache

How is all this related to this thread? We lack on field leadership. The move to get a player like Steele is the pointer

I see one person after another here wanting to blame the team for choking in that 2003 SF but we lost the match at the selection table

If the need for someone, anyone, was so urgent, why didn't Schache come on?

1 minute ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

If the need for someone, anyone, was so urgent, why didn't Schache come on?

Who knows? Amateur hour I'd say

And in the pre-match thread here, there were numerous posts on how we were going into that SF with an undermanned forward line

It was an almighty stuff up at the selection table, all round

And getting back to that position where we are a genuine contender again will be no easy task

If we'd bounced back and contended again in 2024 or 2025 then that match might have been forgotten about ... but since then, things have gone pear-shaped

So it was a defining moment and a sign of things to come

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Max is a lead by example on field leader but leadership is so much more than that. Viney is the same. 'watch me do it'

A good Captain example would be Luke Hodge that led by example as a player but also marshalled his players and directed them on field, etc. AS well he directed his leadership group what to do so that they could impart that on to their forwards, midfield defence etc.

Our on field leadership has been wanting in many big games and the St Kilda game was a shining example of how bad it was.

On-field leadership is empowered through coaching and what is drilled into players at training. It's pretty clear that the coaching was severely lacking in regards to how to handle those moments.

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Max is a lead by example on field leader but leadership is so much more than that. Viney is the same. 'watch me do it'

A good Captain example would be Luke Hodge that led by example as a player but also marshalled his players and directed them on field, etc. AS well he directed his leadership group what to do so that they could impart that on to their forwards, midfield defence etc.

Our on field leadership has been wanting in many big games and the St Kilda game was a shining example of how bad it was.

And apart from the coaching, the players need to take responsibility in an autonomous way. You can't spoon feed forever

The Hodge & Selwood types are naturals. By the age of 20-21 they've got what it takes

1 hour ago, Dee Boys said:

Right, well you’ve shifted the goalposts then.

The entire time I’ve been discussing the perceived “culture” of the club, which is largely the off field behaviours and standards of the playing group.

Which is Max and the other leaders’ domain, not the board or CEO.

16 hours ago, Dee Boys said:

People are so quick to blame Roffey, Pert and Goodwin for the downfall of the club the last few years.

We probably have wires crossed here...I didn't shift the goal posts.

...but your statement above didn't ring true with me.

The downfall of the club to me is on the board and admin.

As for the culture of the club, it's a whole club thing from the top down.

It's not just on Max...or just on the board but they do lead the way.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Who knows? Amateur hour I'd say

And in the pre-match thread here, there were numerous posts on how we were going into that SF with an undermanned forward line

It was an almighty stuff up at the selection table, all round

And getting back to that position where we are a genuine contender again will be no easy task

If we'd bounced back and contended again in 2024 or 2025 then that match might have been forgotten about ... but since then, things have gone pear-shaped

So it was a defining moment and a sign of things to come

I agree with this. Something shifted in my mind after that game. Losing to Collingwood was nothing to be ashamed of. Losing to Carlton was unforgivable.

For me, that shift was mostly about how I viewed Goodwin and his team. A sign of things to come for sure.

6 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

I agree with this. Something shifted in my mind after that game. Losing to Collingwood was nothing to be ashamed of. Losing to Carlton was unforgivable.

For me, that shift was mostly about how I viewed Goodwin and his team. A sign of things to come for sure.

What gives me hope is how our experienced players respond to King

Putting aside the young talent coming through over the next 2 years, we need our established players to lift their game

I'm confident that the senior players will respond. If they don't, we're in strife

2 hours ago, Macca said:

The Ox's comments was during an interview with SEN and related to the camp down at Lorne

He mentioned a few times that he had witnessed the players getting up to no good. He didn't elaborate but repeated himself a few times

My reading off of it was that the listeners needed to fill in the gaps as he wasn't prepared to name names or describe what the activities were (that he witnessed)

Sorry, but that's [censored] form from Ox. Adds to the media pile on, tars everyone with a guilty brush based in insinuations. Again coming from the guy could have been as good as Wayne Carey on feild, but that destroyed his own career and contributed to bad team culture that derailed the team.

If Ox has concerns and insights based on his own experiences, by all means raise them directly to the club leadership and board etc, but just adding to the public pile on reeks of him putting his own personal media profile and interests above that of the club.

By contrast, Max is the consumate professional trainer, has what 8 all Australian medals to his own name, a premiership and consecutive seasons where the team was a pace setter of the league and top 4 finishes. I'd also suggest that as a captain/leader, Max's easy going affable style is somewhat ballanced by others in the team like the super intense Jack Viney that has more your Joel Selwood mindset, but perhaps not so much the level of interpersonal skills.

4 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Sorry, but that's [censored] form from Ox. Adds to the media pile on, tars everyone with a guilty brush based in insinuations. Again coming from the guy could have been as good as Wayne Carey on feild, but that destroyed his own career and contributed to bad team culture that derailed the team.

If Ox has concerns and insights based on his own experiences, by all means raise them directly to the club leadership and board etc, but just adding to the public pile on reeks of him putting his own personal media profile and interests above that of the club.

By contrast, Max is the consumate professional trainer, has what 8 all Australian medals to his own name, a premiership and consecutive seasons where the team was a pace setter of the league and top 4 finishes. I'd also suggest that as a captain/leader, Max's easy going affable style is somewhat ballanced by others in the team like the super intense Jack Viney that has more your Joel Selwood mindset, but perhaps not so much the level of interpersonal skills.

Back around that Lorne camp we were in a bit of a mess anyway

Ox said what he said and probably meant well. He didn't name names at least

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

What gives me hope is how our experienced players respond to King

Putting aside the young talent coming through over the next 2 years, we need our established players to lift their game

I'm confident that the senior players will respond. If they don't, we're in strife

Very interesting to see how Viney responds. I suspect one of the many reasons King was eager to get rid of (or at least didn't stand in the way of the departure of) Petracca and Oliver was the problem of old dogs being unable to learn new tricks. Arguably, Viney was the player most unable to adjust to the shift in Goodwin's game style when it became clear slamming it on the boot no longer worked.

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

Back around that Lorne camp we were in a bit of a mess anyway

Ox said what he said and probably meant well. He didn't name names at least

Don't get me wrong, loved him as a player growing up and from what I understand he still loves the club and means well, but he's made a habit of being publically overly critical and negative about the club as a media personality, which I don't think is actually constructive.

Surely he could have conversations with the likes of Brad Green etc without airing all his views on all our dirty laundry in the open.

16 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

To add further to this i have lost count how many times we have found ourselves in moments of the game over the past two years where Max has lined up for goal to either put us in front of give us momentum and yet misses his shot at crucial stages of the game.

He does a lot right from a playing perspective and is a champion of a ruckman, but his on field leadership leaves a lot to be desired.

Yep, he’ll kick straighter when he’s not captain, duh

21 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Don't get me wrong, loved him as a player growing up and from what I understand he still loves the club and means well, but he's made a habit of being publically overly critical and negative about the club as a media personality, which I don't think is actually constructive.

Surely he could have conversations with the likes of Brad Green etc without airing all his views on all our dirty laundry in the open.

His words may well have got back to the club anyway. A Broadcast on SEN is all there for the listening (and wouldn't be hard to find for anyone here that is interested)

But it was just after the 2023 season had been completed (Dec 2024) so it's the height of the cricket season so probably got lost in the mix ... Not newsworthy unlike the height of the footy season

Another comment (paraphrasing)

"I saw some stuff going on that I didn't particularly like"

Looking back to where we find ourselves as a club right now, the words back then were quite profound

The club turned a blind eye to all of these shenanigans.

People directly and indirectly knew but we kept winning to mask any sort of media coverage on it.

When the pressure grew too much it just all exploded beyond repair.

Chapter closed.

End of story.

Max Gawn is the gatekeeper to all these truths, he knows everything that went down.