Neither covered themselves in glory

They are getting paid a lot of money, A grade money, and delivering B and C grade output.

I want to see both of them get their [censored] together and delivering for this club.

3 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

I literally said above that both of these guys deserve a lot of credit for overcoming what they have. I am not holding a grudge against anyone. I just happen to have a great amount of sympathy and respect for what Clarry has been through, but I also completely recognise that Trac had a very traumatic injury, and while many here have been calling out his fear of body contact this year, I have defended him for it.
I also defended him when he was being called out for not posting on his social media about the club, because I know he doesn't manage his own social media and it was unfair to accuse him of not caring about the club.
I think you are being very unfair to suggest that I have cut Trac no slack.

This is not a Trac vs Clarry debate, it shouldn't be. But somehow it always becomes one. They are two separate people who both made mistakes that I am sure they would take back if they could. I think that Clarry has been given very little leeway by some fans, and especially by the media, but the same can't be said for Trac. I've seen Clarry called out for everything from being fat, to ruining our club and culture, to screwing us with his contract on this site.

And by the way, Clarry has always been the same. The club, the playing group and the fans were very happy to turn a blind eye to it when he was dominating the competition. If he returns to his best again, I bet nobody will discuss his indiscretions again, nor his contract. That's the nature of the beast isn't it?

Peatling is another player who pulled out although we were very heavily into him. And player managers were flat out refusing to speak to Tim Lamb last year. That is not all on Trac of course, but the overall club perception that we were/are a mess.

Where did it suggest that Peatling pulled out due to the range of issues at the club? I haven't read anything to suggest otherwise and pretty sure he had a stronger pull to Adelaide then Melbourne the city. He was never strongly linked in the same vein as what Houston was.

I also find it pretty extreme if players manager refused to speak to Tim Lamb from a professional perspective but also having a range of players at our club that Lamb would have to negotiate contracts with all player manager.

Can you provide the facts or a link to this actually happening?

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by dazzledavey36

3 hours ago, mfcrox said:

I've never got that love back for Trac after what happened end of last year.

On one hand you had a bloke who had personal issues, was pushed out by the club as a result of those (two years in a row), and still has an obvious love for the joint and is happy to make that known and wants to make up for what he did. Yes, it was his own doing that caused those problems, but he has never really wavered in giving 100% to the club since it all went down. I respect that.

On the other hand, you have a bloke who felt aggrieved by the club (and fair enough), but then made it all about himself to get out of the place. It really destabilised the club at the end of last season. Whilst he has since come back to the club, there are times he sulks, and he just seems very 'me me me'. The irony is that in trying to build brand Trac5, he actually damaged it with regards to MFC supporters.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to keep both... but if I had to decide between one or the other I am keeping Clarry for the reasons I've stated above. Maybe things are seen differently inside the walls of the club, but that's how I see it from the outside.

I'm keep Clarry irrespective of Trac, and I find the binary approach of you have to trade one or the other, a bit dopey (not saying that's your approach).

I too have wavered throughout the year on both players, but with Clarry's still elite ability to extract, he is vital, IMV, for the next midfield, surrounded by better ball users in Langford, Lindsay and Kozzy. The latter needs to improve his ball use, but is not Viney, Trac or Clarry in terms of kicking.

Something to possibly take into consideration when thinking of these two .. indeed anyone on the list in reality is in order to understand where players are in the mix it's probably best to take a number of paces back and broaden the perspective.

We're currently a team that's finished a lowly 14th on a meagre 7 wins. 4 losses more than the previous year. This is a team now at a crossroad.

Going forward will mean letting go of the past. The team that lifted the cup in 21 isn't the same that ran around then. Not only have players left, but others are further down their own roads , indeed some nearing its end.

The team , in a few seasons, that might be competitive sufficiently to have a real crack will look quite different. A new coach will come in and together with other fresh eyes will mould a different squad as to what we have on the books today. Some names will remain, some will be new ( at least to us ). It will be what that team is envisaged as that will determine who may stay and who might depart come this seasons eos merry-go-round.

This now becomes totally a merit based accumulation of names. That was then and this is now... or more poignantly what needs to be soon.

So it isn't a case I would think that a new coach might prioritise the notion of what can be built tomorrow and as such what/who is wanted to enable that as much as .... this is how I see a team in 1/2/3 seasons... who do we have that might fill a role then... who might be available in 1/2/3 seasons to create this new juggernaut.

The reputations of some become moot really. It's what they can bring game 1 , 2026 that means anything and everything really.

I think some folk, possibly even some players are in for a rude shock. All bets are off.

The new coach will have a distinct advantage of bringing no particular Melbourne baggage. He certainly won't be wearing red/blue tinted glasses.

So, back to the two lads in question. What is it that either offers us today ? And is that best fulfilled at Melbourne ??

I can see an argument for Oliver. Finding form..and not an easy marketing exercise to other clubs . To see Clarry go would cost money and does that present as best outcome ?

Tracc on the other hand would walk into a handful of clubs. Granted ...some horse trading required . Is a new start the best outcome for both parties ( tracc and dees ) ?? I don't know. But I can guarantee it WILL be asked.

The unpalatable truth for some is as a team we CAN exist without Tracc, without Oliver, without Viney.

There's fresher talent around which a team can and will be built.

In some ways Goodwin was the bond that kept some of this list together. Understandably so. With his departure so too leaves that glue.

It will be very interesting , and telling, to see what unfolds.

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by beelzebub

13 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Can you provide the facts or a link to this actually happening?

I can't say too much. If you want to have this conversation in private I'm happy to do so.

I will just leave the below here, which was a direct response to something you asked on the topic. I think you can put 2 and 2 together.

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

I can't say too much. If you want to have this conversation in private I'm happy to do so.

I will just leave the below here, which was a direct response to something you asked on the topic. I think you can put 2 and 2 together.

That answers nothing about player managers refusing to speak to a list manager of an AFL club. I have never once seen this ever reported in any media outlet whether its with Melbourne or a different club.

Its completely unheard of and utterly unprofessional considering player managers look after a range of players at each club.

A player manager might have a star player going through issues with the club which they'll work through the club in dealing with that. But in a separate matter, that same player manager would be negotiating a contract extension for a separate player in that exact same time.

Forgive my ignorance but has there actually been irrefutable evidence that it was Trac and not his family who aired the grievances against the club?

Like most here I devour any news news about the club whenever I can find it, but perhaps it’s my age, and failing memory, but I do NOT recall ANY words spoken by Trac where he’s disparaged the club at all.

I stand to be corrected

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

My read on Demonland is that posters have been very quick to forgive Clarry and cut him some slack, and very, very, very slow to do the same for Trac, and that includes you.

No one controls their own mental health to the point where they choose to be ill. But Clarry controlled the behaviours that led him there, just as Trac controlled his behaviours that put the club in turmoil last year.

Yes, Trac's behaviour this time last year was damaging to the club. But Clarry's off-field behaviour was also damaging to the club. Demonland holding a long-time grudge against Trac because he also happens to enjoy cooking is IMO grossly unfair.

Also, who other than Houston are you suggesting pulled out of coming to the club? Have I forgotten someone? Regardless, and as @dazzledavey36 has said, with the benefit of hindsight we are much better off with Houston having pulled out.

I thinks it’s pretty natural to look at both situations and apply different rules and judgements.

Trac felt aggrieved. Felt the club didn’t support him and was not enforcing core values that drive successful outcomes. (By the way, I would challenge him on the latter. From what I was told, that was a managed message from his people.)

He felt it best to try the scorched earth approach and make the club implode by feeding the media. It failed from the perspective of his exit but it damaged the clubs brand (ironic no?) to the point that we were completely on the nose with potential draftees, their parents, their agents, potential trade targets, their parents, their agents and so and so forth. It even impacted commercial partners perceptions. He even got sacked by his management. (Unconfirmed)

If you get a chance, ask Tim Lamb what he felt about last years trade period. He was forced to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Clayton is different. Clayton has been a player that has required more steering than other players during his time with us. His output from day one has been incredible with a large drop off in 23 & 24 and glimpses of the old Clazza late in 25. The club has helped him in a lot of ways but also at times turned a blind eye to some of his antics as his performance was elite.

His inner turmoil, personal problems and injury lead to a nasty spiral which impacted a large amount of people at the club and our performance as a team. The blast radius was large but it was a result of severe ill health, not an intentional act of defiance. It happened to coincide with a downturn in performance from the team as well. Poor timing.

So, do I look at the two of them differently? Absofookinglutely! Trac thought he was bigger than the club and could force his way out. No matter the collateral damage. That includes supporters and members!

Clazza also helped bring the club down but not in a deliberate way. Please don’t get me wrong, when he was talking with Geelong I was furious. How could he do that?

Both were failed by the club in some way.

Both handled themselves poorly.

But someone who deliberately drags my club through the mud will need to do a lot more to get back in my good books!

13 minutes ago, joeboy said:

Forgive my ignorance but has there actually been irrefutable evidence that it was Trac and not his family who aired the grievances against the club?

Like most here I devour any news news about the club whenever I can find it, but perhaps it’s my age, and failing memory, but I do NOT recall ANY words spoken by Trac where he’s disparaged the club at all.

I stand to be corrected

It depends on what you define as irrefutable evidence

I have a really hard time understanding how the most active player in the history of the league in terms of social media would allow those sorts of stories about him and the club to run absolutely wild without making any effort at all to either address them directly or via his manager, if they weren't true. It seems to me that he made a clear decision to let it happen and that in my eyes is evidence that he was unhappy with the club.

when you add that to the widespread consistency of reporting in the media that he was, i think it mounds a pretty strong case, but again, it depends on where you draw the line as far as irrefutable evidence

15 minutes ago, joeboy said:

Forgive my ignorance but has there actually been irrefutable evidence that it was Trac and not his family who aired the grievances against the club?

Like most here I devour any news news about the club whenever I can find it, but perhaps it’s my age, and failing memory, but I do NOT recall ANY words spoken by Trac where he’s disparaged the club at all.

I stand to be corrected

I’ve never seen Trac himself say a bad word about the club — unless someone’s got actual quotes, this feels more like whispers than facts,
Funny how silence gets turned into headlines. I’ve yet to hear Trac himself bag the club — but in the echo chamber, whispers become ‘fact.’ That’s not evidence, that’s just propaganda with a guernsey on.
If Trac’s been bagging the club, he’s done it in invisible ink.

13 minutes ago, john delosa said:

I’ve never seen Trac himself say a bad word about the club — unless someone’s got actual quotes, this feels more like whispers than facts,
Funny how silence gets turned into headlines. I’ve yet to hear Trac himself bag the club — but in the echo chamber, whispers become ‘fact.’ That’s not evidence, that’s just propaganda with a guernsey on.
If Trac’s been bagging the club, he’s done it in invisible ink.

Sometimes silence is louder than words.

24 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

That answers nothing about player managers refusing to speak to a list manager of an AFL club. I have never once seen this ever reported in any media outlet whether its with Melbourne or a different club.

Its completely unheard of and utterly unprofessional considering player managers look after a range of players at each club.

A player manager might have a star player going through issues with the club which they'll work through the club in dealing with that. But in a separate matter, that same player manager would be negotiating a contract extension for a separate player in that exact same time.

I think you’re being deliberately daft.

You know exactly what I meant by player managers didn’t want to speak to us.

Of course they spoke with us in relation to their clients currently employed by the club, but it was radio silence when it came to their other clients that we were pursuing.

And just because the media didn’t report it, doesn’t mean it’s not true. No player manager is coming out publicly and saying that they don’t want to deal with certain clubs. Now that would be unprofessional.

As @JJJ noted above, Tim Lamb brought a knife to a gun fight because of the situation the club found itself in, where a Norm Smith medallist and highly paid senior player was complaining about the club very publicly. Even his own management was telling him to stop because they saw the damage it was doing.

Trac is not the first nor last excellent player who found themselves at a club that is underperforming. He had every right to feel aggrieved, and he had every right to express those feelings. He just needed to do it privately, the same way other senior players did.

8 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I think you’re being deliberately daft.

You know exactly what I meant by player managers didn’t want to speak to us.

Of course they spoke with us in relation to their clients currently employed by the club, but it was radio silence when it came to their other clients that we were pursuing.

And just because the media didn’t report it, doesn’t mean it’s not true. No player manager is coming out publicly and saying that they don’t want to deal with certain clubs. Now that would be unprofessional.

As @JJJ noted above, Tim Lamb brought a knife to a gun fight because of the situation the club found itself in, where a Norm Smith medallist and highly paid senior player was complaining about the club very publicly. Even his own management was telling him to stop because they saw the damage it was doing.

Trac is not the first nor last excellent player who found themselves at a club that is underperforming. He had every right to feel aggrieved, and he had every right to express those feelings. He just needed to do it privately, the same way other senior players did.

You keep changing lanes.

You made a pretty blunt statement by stating "And player managers were flat out refusing to speak to Tim Lamb last year."

You think I am meant to know exactly what that means when you didnt add any further context to it?

I questioned it and you responded with "oh but cant say anything" if you cant cant put it out there then simply dont say anything for starters..

I mean, once again, im still waiting for the part where player managers were flat out refusing to speak to Tim Lamb and other opposition players refused to come to the club because of the off field mess.

Houston and who else?

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

You keep changing lanes.

You made a pretty blunt statement by stating "And player managers were flat out refusing to speak to Tim Lamb last year."

You think I am meant to know exactly what that means when you didnt add any further context to it?

I questioned it and you responded with "oh but cant say anything" if you cant cant put it out there then simply dont say anything for starters..

I mean, once again, im still waiting for the part where player managers were flat out refusing to speak to Tim Lamb and other opposition players refused to come to the club because of the off field mess.

Houston and who else?

Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. I thought the context of the post made it clear that player managers refused to talk to Tim Lamb about their clients coming to the club. I wasn’t trying to be deliberately confusing.

And I told you if you want to have further discussions about this in private I’m happy to. I don’t air dirty laundry on this very public forum. I like Andy too much to do that to him, and I love the club too much to have grubs like Morris run with it (and yes many journalists read this forum).

I’m also not someone to name drop or leave crumbs and then say nothing else. I feel like plenty of well informed posters have said the same as me multiple times over the past 12 months. There’s a lot of weight to this discussion.

And I already told you about Peatling. We were very heavily into him. Offered him a very good deal. We also spoke with a number of potential suitors to see if we could make a deal with Trac work in our favour and none had interest in coming across. McKay (Harry) is one name I know of.

Our reputation in the industry is poor. That is absolutely not all on Trac, it’s also on Clarry and Smith and our fall down the ladder, and our court room battles and our boardroom instability.

But Trac poured gasoline on an open flame. I think you’re foolish to think otherwise. And if memory serves me right you were very strong on condemning his behavior last year. When many denied the noise, you were one who from the beginning said where’s there’s smoke there’s fire. And you were correct.

4 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. I thought the context of the post made it clear that player managers refused to talk to Tim Lamb about their clients coming to the club. I wasn’t trying to be deliberately confusing.

And I told you if you want to have further discussions about this in private I’m happy to. I don’t air dirty laundry on this very public forum. I like Andy too much to do that to him, and I love the club too much to have grubs like Morris run with it (and yes many journalists read this forum).

I’m also not someone to name drop or leave crumbs and then say nothing else. I feel like plenty of well informed posters have said the same as me multiple times over the past 12 months. There’s a lot of weight to this discussion.

And I already told you about Peatling. We were very heavily into him. Offered him a very good deal. We also spoke with a number of potential suitors to see if we could make a deal with Trac work in our favour and none had interest in coming across. McKay (Harry) is one name I know of.

Our reputation in the industry is poor. That is absolutely not all on Trac, it’s also on Clarry and Smith and our fall down the ladder, and our court room battles and our boardroom instability.

But Trac poured gasoline on an open flame. I think you’re foolish to think otherwise. And if memory serves me right you were very strong on condemning his behavior last year. When many denied the noise, you were one who from the beginning said where’s there’s smoke there’s fire. And you were correct.

We weren't heavily linked.

Yes Peatling didnt come, but where does it state that it was because of the Petracca fiasco? Had nothing to do with the significant offers from other clubs yeah?

AFL.com reporter Cal Twomey added that the race for Peatling is down to three; GWS, Adelaide or the Western Bulldogs.

I didnt condemned Petracca's behavior. If anything i supported his stance on the club and feared he was going to get traded. He demanded excellences and an improved environment on elite standards. Something Oliver failed to do for the best part of two years.

On Oliver last year, i was ready to sign his release papers quick smart.

5 hours ago, Davos said:

I think his work last year could be perceived as manipulative and driven by ego, whereas Clarry appears (from the outside, anyway) to be a bit immature and has been working through a tough period in his life. His story is more relatable for many supporters, who can also see one of the great redemption arcs on the horizon if he can get back to form.

3 hours ago, GS_1905 said:

This is what it is for me.

Strangely I have a lot of empathy for Clarry but not Trac even though Clarry to some extent was responsible for a lot that happened to him whilst Trac was not. It was the way that Trac bought the entire club to its knees in the aftermath of his injury that lost it for me. it was and continues to be unforgivable in my eyes - that is why i want him gone. I would much rather see Clarry rediscover his footy than Trac.

Hard to explain but that is just the way i feel rightly or wrongly.

Agree with all of the above, I feel that both situations were very different. Trac publicly and deliberately betrayed the club and fans to force through a move to a bigger club( the pies) to improve his brand. Very difficult for me to get back 100% on the Trac train after that.

Clarry has had his issues but I don’t feel like he betrayed the club in the same way.

17 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

We weren't heavily linked.

Yes Peatling didnt come, but where does it state that it was because of the Petracca fiasco? Had nothing to do with the significant offers from other clubs yeah?

AFL.com reporter Cal Twomey added that the race for Peatling is down to three; GWS, Adelaide or the Western Bulldogs.

I didnt condemned Petracca's behavior. If anything i supported his stance on the club and feared he was going to get traded. He demanded excellences and an improved environment on elite standards. Something Oliver failed to do for the best part of two years.

On Oliver last year, i was ready to sign his release papers quick smart.

I don’t want to keep going around in circles, but there’s a reason we didn’t make Peatling’s short list and it’s not because we didn’t offer him excellent money and a long term contract.

You can go back to this thread and read some of the comments about how into him we were from some well respected posters https://demonland.com/forums/topic/58889-james-peatling/page/2/#comments

And you absolutely did condemn Trac’s behavior. A two second search shows you saying that you agree with Lewis about how poor it is for Trac to air his grievances in public.

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by Jaded No More

1 hour ago, JJJ said:

I thinks it’s pretty natural to look at both situations and apply different rules and judgements.

Trac felt aggrieved. Felt the club didn’t support him and was not enforcing core values that drive successful outcomes. (By the way, I would challenge him on the latter. From what I was told, that was a managed message from his people.)

He felt it best to try the scorched earth approach and make the club implode by feeding the media. It failed from the perspective of his exit but it damaged the clubs brand (ironic no?) to the point that we were completely on the nose with potential draftees, their parents, their agents, potential trade targets, their parents, their agents and so and so forth. It even impacted commercial partners perceptions. He even got sacked by his management. (Unconfirmed)

If you get a chance, ask Tim Lamb what he felt about last years trade period. He was forced to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Clayton is different. Clayton has been a player that has required more steering than other players during his time with us. His output from day one has been incredible with a large drop off in 23 & 24 and glimpses of the old Clazza late in 25. The club has helped him in a lot of ways but also at times turned a blind eye to some of his antics as his performance was elite.

His inner turmoil, personal problems and injury lead to a nasty spiral which impacted a large amount of people at the club and our performance as a team. The blast radius was large but it was a result of severe ill health, not an intentional act of defiance. It happened to coincide with a downturn in performance from the team as well. Poor timing.

So, do I look at the two of them differently? Absofookinglutely! Trac thought he was bigger than the club and could force his way out. No matter the collateral damage. That includes supporters and members!

Clazza also helped bring the club down but not in a deliberate way. Please don’t get me wrong, when he was talking with Geelong I was furious. How could he do that?

Both were failed by the club in some way.

Both handled themselves poorly.

But someone who deliberately drags my club through the mud will need to do a lot more to get back in my good books!

You're describing a prima donna and an i.diot.

It's only natural that the i.diot gets cut some slack.

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by Gator