"We aren't great at any phase of the game"

[Demon Disciple 12,274]

I’d like to see us switch the ball more often instead of kicking long down the line.

Our fitness will dictate how successful we will be at this

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

10 hours ago, Tolstoys Nudge said:

A Clanger is — An error made by a player resulting in a negative result for his side.

 

 

10 hours ago, kev martin said:

Not sure, I am not a statistician. I was presenting an argument to our "struggle in phases".

I think the problem was, others set their game against our style. Therefore, our bombs into our forward line didn't work as we couldn't lock the ball down in there. The other team got out quickly or with the short dinky, efficient kicks. The backline intercepts were the same, they were reluctant to kick the ball down the line and had to use the dinky/efficient/fast style to do us. 

Moving the ball is an interesting aspect. Has to be one that is continually in flux as they adapt to how the game is going, tempo, momentum, not working, predictable, etcetera. 

I believe the onus was on Goody and the on-field leaders, to read the tea leaves, which is not related to our basic skill level. Making the statement,  "We aren't great at any phase of the game", is blame shifting and Goody putting the onus on players. I reckon we have the players the will, but our style and its adapt ability is my assessment of why we didn't make finals.

Big year for Goody, if we fail he may not be able to hide.

Kicking 50m down the line to a contest isn't measured as a clanger regardless of the result but just avoiding a clanger doesn't mean you're good using the footy.

I think you're over-egging the omelette here looking for an answer. We were great at multiple phases in 2021 but haven't adapted since (in fact we got more conservative if anything trying to protect what we thought was a winning brand). The game has moved forward while we've been stuck trying to replicate what worked 4 years ago. We are not a highly skilled team, we lack a strong presence up forward who can make your ball use look better and we lack a bit of footy IQ as well.

None of these things are terminal and I think the club is trying to address them but the first step to fixing it is admitting what the problem is.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

5 hours ago, deespicable me said:

I would like the Coaching crew to spend more time on opposition scouting. ie looking at games coming up and how to play those games, who to try and shut down, how to restrict their movement or free us up to play the way we want to.

Back in 2020 and 2021 and the first half of 2022 it was all about getting the game on our terms. If we did that we would often / always win. 

It's different now as teams feel they have us beaten, they get the game on their terms and we can't shut them down or change the game to our advantage. Fremantle, Collingwood and Brisbane are three obvious examples. I would like to see us with more tactics to get back at some of the teams that have seemingly gone past us. 

Unless we change how we go about it I don't think we can beat those sides and that becomes your seasons death knell.

We play Lions (away Round 10), Freo (at the MCG Round 6) and Collingwood (MCG Round 13 and again Round 24) . I agree every game is important and we need to be winning a lot of our games, but those three games in the first 13 rounds will be critical to our self belief for season 2025. I hope we don't just roll out the same lame stuff as this year.

I think Craig Jennings had already left by 2021 but this was his role when at the club. Not sure who if anyone replaced him?

[kev martin 10,414]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

Kicking 50m down the line to a contest isn't measured as a clanger regardless of the result but just avoiding a clanger doesn't mean you're good using the footy.

I think you're over-egging the omelette here looking for an answer. We were great at multiple phases in 2021 but haven't adapted since (in fact we got more conservative if anything trying to protect what we thought was a winning brand). The game has moved forward while we've been stuck trying to replicate what worked 4 years ago. We are not a highly skilled team, we lack a strong presence up forward who can make your ball use look better and we lack a bit of footy IQ as well.

None of these things are terminal and I think the club is trying to address them but the first step to fixing it is admitting what the problem is.

I don't agree that our on-field problems are due to our skills. Our skills are similar, if not better than other teams (IMO). The small margins that establish domination of a game, is how we apply a strategy. Once we became the hunted club, others worked us out, and as you say "the game has moved forward". Team cohesion is also a big factor in determining success.

I think Goody's throw away line was at best an over-simplified analysis, or a team motivator. At worst, a way to shift the blame off the coaches, lowers our expectations, or fugazi.

We don't struggle with the phases of the game, we struggle with a game plan that is flexible, and, has gears and options to suit the need at the time (IMO).

Edited 13 hours ago by kev martin

[The Taciturn Demon 580]

21 hours ago, kev martin said:

Quote from:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2023s.html

MFC:

9183 disposals for, only 4 others with more. 8911 disposals against, 9 others with less.

Pretty good at getting the ball, average for stopping the other getting it.

Clangers 945, 8 others had more (average), others teams against, had 894. 5th on list. (Below average). Other teams are better at using ball against us. Perhaps because they try not to bomb into our backline. 

1530 tackles 5 had more. 1536 against 2 had more. We tackle more but get tackeld more. In plenty of contest.

3654 contested possessions, only two higher. 3399 against, 6 had more. We get the ball.

The "We aren't great at any phase of the game", fugazi.

We didn't make finals so have less opportunities for higher numbers than those that played in them.

These are stats from 2023.

[rpfc 28,777]

27 minutes ago, kev martin said:

I don't agree that our on-field problems are due to our skills. Our skills are similar, if not better than other teams (IMO). The small margins that establish domination of a game, is how we apply a strategy. Once we became the hunted club, others worked us out, and as you say "the game has moved forward". Team cohesion is also a big factor in determining success.

I think Goody's throw away line was at best an over-simplified analysis, or a team motivator. At worst, a way to shift the blame off the coaches, lowers our expectations, or fugazi.

We don't struggle with the phases of the game, we struggle with a game plan that is flexible, and, has gears and options to suit the need at the time (IMO).

Again, the ‘game plan’ would be overlaid over the three phases of the game. So that last paragraph is essentially ‘the sky is not blue; it’s obviously blue!’

Edited 13 hours ago by rpfc

[kev martin 10,414]

1 hour ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

These are stats from 2023.

Oops

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2024s.html

Disposals for 7955, 14 had more. 

Disposals against 8451, 19 had more.

Didn't get much of the ball, though stopped the other getting or using it.

Clangers for 785, 2 had more.

Clangers against, 853, 13 had more.

Had plenty of clangers, but so did the other teams.

Tackles for, 1337, 2 had more.

Tackles against, 1306, 14 had more.

Tackled well, Didn't get tackled much.

Contested possessions for, 3006, 10 had more.

Contested possessions against, 2968, 12 had more.

Down in contested possessions, and the other got more.

 

My assessment, did well closing the game, but couldn't get the ball back.

When we did get it we did alright.

Good with phase of using ball, good in phase of stopping the other, but down in our phase of winning the ball. Which had been our trump for so long. 2 out of 3 phases we were OK.

Edited 12 hours ago by kev martin

[Brownie 5,988]

On 20/12/2024 at 12:00, jnrmac said:

We lost 4 games against top 8 sides by a kick. We aren't that far away. And that is with just about everything going wrong for us in 2024.

The question was "Is this fixable in 1 off season or are we delusional thinking we can make the 8 with aging stars ?"

The answer is of course it is fixable. Getting our key players back on the park play their best footy is the first key. The second is adjusting the game plan which is never as difficult as people seem to think.

Thirdly we have a pretty easy draw that should see us 6-2 or 7-1. That momentum should see us make the 8 easily. We only play one 2024 top side twice and supposedly have the second easiest draw.

If you look at which players improved or maintained excellence in 2024 (excl 1st year players) it is a very small list; Viney, Rivers, TMac, Langdon, Gawn and maybe McVee. There is a lot of upside for many of our players.

That we are 14th in flag betting at 26 to 1 is ridiculous.

we should be very optimistic about our chances in 2025

 

Look at the Lions and how they started their season to how they played those last couple of finals.

It's do-able. We have the right blend of experience and youth.

We need to be able to stay fit and also execute well. Foot skills and decision making.

I am so happy that the coach has admitted our style is not up to winning a premiership and we're being very open about fixing it.

It's about time. I think the players will relish the change after a year or two of frustration.

Go dees

[kev martin 10,414]

34 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Again, the ‘game plan’ would be overlaid over the three phases of the game. So that last paragraph is essentially ‘the sky is not blue; it’s obviously blue!’

The sky is black at night

[rpfc 28,777]

12 minutes ago, kev martin said:

The sky is black at night

Yeah, and I suppose the Sherrins are yellow?! 

- random bloke at the footy in the 60s

[The Taciturn Demon 580]

48 minutes ago, kev martin said:

2 out of 3 phases we were OK.

Hang on - what?

According to the stats you mentioned as reflective of an above average team, we were below average or bottom five in every one in the season just gone. 

[D4Life 2,525]

On 20/12/2024 at 14:28, DeeSpencer said:

Brisbane nearly won the flag in 2023 and finished top 4 for the best part of 5 or so years despite being poor in transition defending before it all came together enough late last year.

Geelong 2022 were heavily reliant on Dangerfield winding back the clock to really be a strong midfield contest side.

Brisbane have a heck of a list even if they just lost their most talented player. Sydney have a star studded midfield. Hawthorn are coming in a hurry. Freo are stacked. But otherwise the comp seems more open than it has been for a while so you don’t have to be near perfect.

The concern is to reach attacking competence with the current list won’t be easy. And it will open us up defensive when our defensive systems have long been based on keeping the ball in tight and good structure.

Giants let Lions off the hook. Who would have believed that one previously injury prone, point kicking, non pressure game performer in first 90% of his career, in Joe Daniher has final series of his career, comes through under pressure and finally kicks straight rather than chokes.

Hard to believe Joe Daniher made the difference!

Highlights flags hard to win!

[kev martin 10,414]

1 hour ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

Hang on - what?

According to the stats you mentioned as reflective of an above average team, we were below average or bottom five in every one in the season just gone. 

Clangers against was interesting,  meaning plenty of pressure without ball, and a plan to score by causing turnovers. 

Same in disposals. Good with giving and evading tackles.

Had ball, though didn't use well.

Without ball the system worked.

Good without ball, contests we got beaten and with ball, a bit eachway. We Possessed it but couldn't deliver well.

Ok, one and a half out of three.

Though definitely not struggling in the 3 phases, which was what I was rebutting, Dr Gonzo "I don't think anyone would argue that we struggled in all phases last year".

Edited 11 hours ago by kev martin

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

1 hour ago, kev martin said:

Oops

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2024s.html

Disposals for 7955, 14 had more. 

Disposals against 8451, 19 had more.

Didn't get much of the ball, though stopped the other getting or using it.

Clangers for 785, 2 had more.

Clangers against, 853, 13 had more.

Had plenty of clangers, but so did the other teams.

Tackles for, 1337, 2 had more.

Tackles against, 1306, 14 had more.

Tackled well, Didn't get tackled much.

Contested possessions for, 3006, 10 had more.

Contested possessions against, 2968, 12 had more.

Down in contested possessions, and the other got more.

 

My assessment, did well closing the game, but couldn't get the ball back.

When we did get it we did alright.

Good with phase of using ball, good in phase of stopping the other, but down in our phase of winning the ball. Which had been our trump for so long. 2 out of 3 phases we were OK.

Quoting number of possessions is 1980s thinking. Has nothing to do with the discussion about how we perform in the different phases of the game.

[Roost it far 8,594]

9 minutes ago, D4Life said:

Giants let Lions off the hook. Who would have believed that one previously injury prone, point kicking, non pressure game performer in first 90% of his career, in Joe Daniher has final series of his career, comes through under pressure and finally kicks straight rather than chokes.

Hard to believe Joe Daniher made the difference!

Highlights flags hard to win!

You seriously underestimate Joe Daniher. He's an absolute top tier key forward.

[kev martin 10,414]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Quoting number of possessions is 1980s thinking. Has nothing to do with the discussion about how we perform in the different phases of the game.

I was forming an argument, needed something, "I don't think anyone would argue that we struggled in all phases last year". Unfortunately I starting researching in 2023 stats which flattered our 2024 season. Though I reckon 2024 stats showed some interest and I will double up, given my belief that it is our system/game plan and not the skills, that let's us down.

Edited 11 hours ago by kev martin

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

Just now, kev martin said:

I was forming an argument, needed something. 

My belief is that it is our system/game plan and not the skills, that let's us down.

It's both. Our midfields primary strength is contested ball winning. They are not a highly skilled group of mids, Viney, Oliver, ANB (2024), Langdon, Sparrow et al not known for their elite disposal.

[kev martin 10,414]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's both. Our midfields primary strength is contested ball winning. They are not a highly skilled group of mids, Viney, Oliver, ANB (2024), Langdon, Sparrow et al not known for their elite disposal.

We lost the contested ball stats last season and we didn't adjust our game plan.

Watch them hit their target in 2025, definitely a purpose/emphasis at training, "do the basics well".

Maybe I will have to eat my words.

Good game plans and high fitness, makes it easier to have effective disposals. 

Edited 11 hours ago by kev martin

[Roost it far 8,594]

Personally I'm a believer that if we can fix our midfield we can fix our problems. Our defence remains sound and with depth. Our forward line now has enough to be more than threatening. Our main midfield of Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Rivers, Langford and Pickett, along with the surrounding run of Windsor, Langdon, Bowey, McVee, Salem, Sharp, Spargo and Lindsay should be strong enough to compete at the top end of the competition. It's a big year for the coaches, finding the gameplan that gets the best out of this group. Personally I think we'll see our 21 plan tweaked without major changes. I'm expecting to see full team defence to force turnovers on the fast transition teams and then some clean possessions to an improved forward line. Think of the KB game against the Pies in 23, that's the template for mine but with improved forward movement and goal kicking. We completely shut them down and should have won by 6-8 goals.

Edited 11 hours ago by Roost it far

[kev martin 10,414]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They are not a highly skilled group of mids, Viney, Oliver, ANB (2024), Langdon,

Viney exhaust himself, and l can lose power and direction with disposals. 

Oliver gets a bit confused. Take the esay option. Can also bomb his kicks. He is still improving. 

Langdon loses concentration. Running all game can do that.

Sparrow struggles with decision making. Beautiful kick, not the best handballer.

Tracc can try too hard, gets the stress, and effects his weapons.

In my opinion.

Edited 11 hours ago by kev martin

[D4Life 2,525]

13 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

You seriously underestimate Joe Daniher. He's an absolute top tier key forward.

He had a great finals campaign, played best footy of his career and a very good season.

prior to joining Lions rarely on the park and until this year and last year, would go missing in big games or kick points at crucial moments.

Last two years I agree with you!

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

21 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

You seriously underestimate Joe Daniher. He's an absolute top tier key forward.

He was always a phenomenal talent and had a good goal kicking record in big games but I’d argue he wasn’t even a completely serious footballer until 2023 when he really stepped up his two way effort. Had a big finals series that year and even bigger in 2024 where he won them the GWS final, was exceptional in the ruck against Geelong and probably could’ve won the norm smith if he kicked straight in the grand final.

They’ve got options to cover him but he’ll be a big loss.

I think 1-26 or so they’ve still got the best list. Freo maybe next. 

If things go right and some young and fringe players step up we’re probably somewhere in a deep chasing pack of teams.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

42 minutes ago, kev martin said:

Viney exhaust himself, and l can lose power and direction with disposals. 

Oliver gets a bit confused. Take the esay option. Can also bomb his kicks. He is still improving. 

Langdon loses concentration. Running all game can do that.

Sparrow struggles with decision making. Beautiful kick, not the best handballer.

Tracc can try too hard, gets the stress, and effects his weapons.

In my opinion.

Yes exactly, none of them are elite ball users especially by foot.

[dazzledavey36 55,341]

45 minutes ago, kev martin said:

Viney exhaust himself, and l can lose power and direction with disposals. 

Oliver gets a bit confused. Take the esay option. Can also bomb his kicks. He is still improving. 

Langdon loses concentration. Running all game can do that.

Sparrow struggles with decision making. Beautiful kick, not the best handballer.

Tracc can try too hard, gets the stress, and effects his weapons.

In my opinion.

Stats say otherwise with Sparrows kicking.

[kev martin 10,414]

25 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Stats say otherwise with Sparrows kicking.

Perhaps, I see those beautiful long kicks of Sparrow, look through the rose coloured glasses and see something better. Maybe, the inside player has some, just get it away from contest/dump kicks. He did have a bad 2024 though. Thanks Dazzle.

He would want to impress early in 2025, if he gets picked, or his spot will go to another.

Edited 10 hours ago by kev martin