An alternative H&A draw and finals

[tiers 2,843]

I note in the papers today that the league had discusses/considered/thought about changing the draw into 2 sections namely r 1-17 and then r 18-22.

Back in 2018, I posted an alternative draw that has more than a passing resemblance. Here it is again with some minor edits and corrections to bring in into the 0s.

AN ALTERNATIVE STRUCTURE FOR OUR FOOTY SEASON

A more balanced draw for the home and away season

To balance out the draw, the teams should play each other once over 17 rounds. Home and away advantage (ie interstate travel for Victorian clubs) can be rotated each year.

At the end of the round 17, the teams should be placed into three groups of 6 viz. 1,4,7,10,13,16 / 2,5,8,11,14,17 / 3,6,9,12,15,18 or other suitable combination but NOT 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.

The teams should play a round robin series of 5 games within their respective groupings giving a total of 22 games for the H & A season. All points earned in rounds 1-17 carry over. The draw for each group should be made by ballot so that the draw for each grouping will be unique to enhance the mystery.

This approach smooths out each team’s chances as no team should play multiple games against top teams or lower teams so that teams at each level have a fair chance to improve but no team gains an unfair advantage because of the opposition or the draw.

Theoretically, each team vying for finals should have a more even chance and there would be greater interest in each round.

Introducing a finals season

A week off after the H&A season gives the players a chance for a rest and refresh and offers the prospect of a finals season, distinct from the H & A season and different to the current finals series.

Divide the top eight clubs into 2 groups of four – 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8 – each to play a round robin series to determine the top team in each group based on both wins and percentage. Every game will be important as, win or lose, percentage counts. And at the end, the two top teams play off in the grand final.

All four matches in the third week should be played at the same time so that teams can't game the system. The broadcasters would have the challenge to cover all four matches simultaneously using "round the grounds" images and reports. What a dynamic and exciting day of footy.

Pros

Enhanced excitement and interest in rounds 18 – 22 and four matches a week for the first three weeks of the finals where just winning will not be enough. The margin of victory and its effect on percentage will count as well. Every score will have real meaning.

The grand final would then be the ultimate match of the season with both teams having gone through an exhaustive process to prove their worth. Another week’s rest should be introduced to extend the promotion of the grand final and to ensure both teams are at their best.

Delete the byes to fit it into the length of the current season or start the season earlier now that the ‘G is no longer required for cricket.

Cons

Finishing 1 and 2 or top 4 might lose its appeal. The argument that the WB benefited from the bye (in 2017) is correct – but shouldn’t the best teams win, not the team with least injuries at the start of the finals. Injuries can occur in the finals that will test team lists but at least they could all start even.

Short notice to make arrangements for the last 5 weeks of the season. So what, arrangements for the current finals series are made on short notice so just extend the time with the extra week’s break factor to deal with the additional complexity. That’s why Gil (now Andrew) is paid the big bucks.

Footy Awards Week

Brownlow, rising star, MVP, coaches and all other awards to be held in the week between the H&A season and the finals season to be known as "Footy Awards Week", an event in itself with daily functions with the Brownlow as the climax. What a celebration of footy. And then the final’s season of 13 matches without distractions. What joy.

Summation

What a dream – a much more exciting and interesting season in six phases – a pre season competition, the first 17 rounds, the final 5 rounds, Awards Week, three weeks of round robin preliminary finals (no semis, elimination or qualifying needed) and a MONSTER GRAND FINAL. That’s what footy is all about. Why not?

 

[leucopogon 1,519]

Interesting. Couple of questions. In the finals season, where are the games played, who gets home ground advantage? And, as you say the incentive for finishing in the top 4 is diminished in your system, it seems that the team finishing 2nd has an easier road to the GF being matched up to teams 4+6+8 (=18) vs the top team who is matched against teams in positions 3+5+7 (=15). 

Perhaps the final season groupings could be 1,6,7,8 and 2,3,4,5 to really incentivise finishing top of the ladder.

Edited July 21, 2023 by leucopogon

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

Not bad.

I'd also add 1-17 is an alternating H&A fixture every year to eradicate anomalies like Dees at the Cattery every year when we play Geelong once a year. 

I'm still in the camp of breaking the table up into 1-6,7-12,13-18 and each team playing each other in the remaining 5 rounds. I'd add that no team can cross over from one group to another (eliminating the possibility that teams finishing 7 or 8 have the ability to get into the top 4 by playing easier teams than those in 5 or 6). 

I think all points / position advantages are retained in the final 5 rounds (so if you are 3 games clear on top, the team sitting at 2nd would need to overcome that). 

i haven't really analysed what some of the disadvantages of this type draw would be as imagine its probably the leading option, but to me next two a proper 34 round (play every team twice) type of fixture, would be the fairest. 

[Neil Crompton 5,665]

24 minutes ago, tiers said:

I note in the papers today that the league had discusses/considered/thought about changing the draw into 2 sections namely r 1-17 and then r 18-22.

Back in 2018, I posted an alternative draw that has more than a passing resemblance. Here it is again with some minor edits and corrections to bring in into the 0s.

AN ALTERNATIVE STRUCTURE FOR OUR FOOTY SEASON

A more balanced draw for the home and away season

To balance out the draw, the teams should play each other once over 17 rounds. Home and away advantage (ie interstate travel for Victorian clubs) can be rotated each year.

At the end of the round 17, the teams should be placed into three groups of 6 viz. 1,4,7,10,13,16 / 2,5,8,11,14,17 / 3,6,9,12,15,18 or other suitable combination but NOT 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.

The teams should play a round robin series of 5 games within their respective groupings giving a total of 22 games for the H & A season. All points earned in rounds 1-17 carry over. The draw for each group should be made by ballot so that the draw for each grouping will be unique to enhance the mystery.

This approach smooths out each team’s chances as no team should play multiple games against top teams or lower teams so that teams at each level have a fair chance to improve but no team gains an unfair advantage because of the opposition or the draw.

Theoretically, each team vying for finals should have a more even chance and there would be greater interest in each round.

Introducing a finals season

A week off after the H&A season gives the players a chance for a rest and refresh and offers the prospect of a finals season, distinct from the H & A season and different to the current finals series.

Divide the top eight clubs into 2 groups of four – 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8 – each to play a round robin series to determine the top team in each group based on both wins and percentage. Every game will be important as, win or lose, percentage counts. And at the end, the two top teams play off in the grand final.

All four matches in the third week should be played at the same time so that teams can't game the system. The broadcasters would have the challenge to cover all four matches simultaneously using "round the grounds" images and reports. What a dynamic and exciting day of footy.

Pros

Enhanced excitement and interest in rounds 18 – 22 and four matches a week for the first three weeks of the finals where just winning will not be enough. The margin of victory and its effect on percentage will count as well. Every score will have real meaning.

The grand final would then be the ultimate match of the season with both teams having gone through an exhaustive process to prove their worth. Another week’s rest should be introduced to extend the promotion of the grand final and to ensure both teams are at their best.

Delete the byes to fit it into the length of the current season or start the season earlier now that the ‘G is no longer required for cricket.

Cons

Finishing 1 and 2 or top 4 might lose its appeal. The argument that the WB benefited from the bye (in 2017) is correct – but shouldn’t the best teams win, not the team with least injuries at the start of the finals. Injuries can occur in the finals that will test team lists but at least they could all start even.

Short notice to make arrangements for the last 5 weeks of the season. So what, arrangements for the current finals series are made on short notice so just extend the time with the extra week’s break factor to deal with the additional complexity. That’s why Gil (now Andrew) is paid the big bucks.

Footy Awards Week

Brownlow, rising star, MVP, coaches and all other awards to be held in the week between the H&A season and the finals season to be known as "Footy Awards Week", an event in itself with daily functions with the Brownlow as the climax. What a celebration of footy. And then the final’s season of 13 matches without distractions. What joy.

Summation

What a dream – a much more exciting and interesting season in six phases – a pre season competition, the first 17 rounds, the final 5 rounds, Awards Week, three weeks of round robin preliminary finals (no semis, elimination or qualifying needed) and a MONSTER GRAND FINAL. That’s what footy is all about. Why not?

 

What happens to your system when Tasmania joins?

[tiers 2,843]

9 minutes ago, leucopogon said:

Interesting. Couple of questions. In the finals season, where are the games played, who gets home ground advantage?

 

Gotta leave something for Andrew to do.

[tiers 2,843]

10 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

 

 

1 minute ago, Neil Crompton said:

What happens to your system when Tasmania joins?

Who? Let them join the VFL.

[tiers 2,843]

11 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

I'm still in the camp of breaking the table up into 1-6,7-12,13-18 and each team playing each other in the remaining 5 rounds. I'd add that no team can cross over from one group to another (eliminating the possibility that teams finishing 7 or 8 have the ability to get into the top 4 by playing easier teams than those in 5 or 6). 

 

What interest do you expect from 15 v 16? My system retains the interest in all games as wins/losses and percentage count all the way to r 22 and the better performing teams play against all types of opponents.

[leucopogon 1,519]

9 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

I'm still in the camp of breaking the table up into 1-6,7-12,13-18 and each team playing each other in the remaining 5 rounds. I'd add that no team can cross over from one group to another (eliminating the possibility that teams finishing 7 or 8 have the ability to get into the top 4 by playing easier teams than those in 5 or 6). 

The only problem with these groupings is the bottom 6. What a bunch of meaningless games to end their season. And what if you are a team sitting in 13th like the Suns are now one game out of the 8? Come the end of round 17 it's season over?!?

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,939]

1 minute ago, leucopogon said:

The only problem with these groupings is the bottom 6. What a bunch of meaningless games to end their season. And what if you are a team sitting in 13th like the Suns are now one game out of the 8? Come the end of round 17 it's season over?!?

That's a key reason as to why it shouldn't happen.

[leucopogon 1,519]

The AFL are really flying close to the sun with these ideas. A real danger of ballsing thing up big time.

[tiers 2,843]

2 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

That's a key reason as to why it shouldn't happen.

That's why my original suggestion of  1,4,7,10,13,16 / 2,5,8,11,14,17 / 3,6,9,12,15,18 is so much better. Every te4am has a chance to improve.

[Bystander 903]

38 minutes ago, tiers said:

I note in the papers today that the league had discusses/considered/thought about changing the draw into 2 sections namely r 1-17 and then r 18-22.

Back in 2018, I posted an alternative draw that has more than a passing resemblance. Here it is again with some minor edits and corrections to bring in into the 0s.

AN ALTERNATIVE STRUCTURE FOR OUR FOOTY SEASON

A more balanced draw for the home and away season

To balance out the draw, the teams should play each other once over 17 rounds. Home and away advantage (ie interstate travel for Victorian clubs) can be rotated each year.

At the end of the round 17, the teams should be placed into three groups of 6 viz. 1,4,7,10,13,16 / 2,5,8,11,14,17 / 3,6,9,12,15,18 or other suitable combination but NOT 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.

The teams should play a round robin series of 5 games within their respective groupings giving a total of 22 games for the H & A season. All points earned in rounds 1-17 carry over. The draw for each group should be made by ballot so that the draw for each grouping will be unique to enhance the mystery.

This approach smooths out each team’s chances as no team should play multiple games against top teams or lower teams so that teams at each level have a fair chance to improve but no team gains an unfair advantage because of the opposition or the draw.

Theoretically, each team vying for finals should have a more even chance and there would be greater interest in each round.

Introducing a finals season

A week off after the H&A season gives the players a chance for a rest and refresh and offers the prospect of a finals season, distinct from the H & A season and different to the current finals series.

Divide the top eight clubs into 2 groups of four – 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8 – each to play a round robin series to determine the top team in each group based on both wins and percentage. Every game will be important as, win or lose, percentage counts. And at the end, the two top teams play off in the grand final.

All four matches in the third week should be played at the same time so that teams can't game the system. The broadcasters would have the challenge to cover all four matches simultaneously using "round the grounds" images and reports. What a dynamic and exciting day of footy.

Pros

Enhanced excitement and interest in rounds 18 – 22 and four matches a week for the first three weeks of the finals where just winning will not be enough. The margin of victory and its effect on percentage will count as well. Every score will have real meaning.

The grand final would then be the ultimate match of the season with both teams having gone through an exhaustive process to prove their worth. Another week’s rest should be introduced to extend the promotion of the grand final and to ensure both teams are at their best.

Delete the byes to fit it into the length of the current season or start the season earlier now that the ‘G is no longer required for cricket.

Cons

Finishing 1 and 2 or top 4 might lose its appeal. The argument that the WB benefited from the bye (in 2017) is correct – but shouldn’t the best teams win, not the team with least injuries at the start of the finals. Injuries can occur in the finals that will test team lists but at least they could all start even.

Short notice to make arrangements for the last 5 weeks of the season. So what, arrangements for the current finals series are made on short notice so just extend the time with the extra week’s break factor to deal with the additional complexity. That’s why Gil (now Andrew) is paid the big bucks.

Footy Awards Week

Brownlow, rising star, MVP, coaches and all other awards to be held in the week between the H&A season and the finals season to be known as "Footy Awards Week", an event in itself with daily functions with the Brownlow as the climax. What a celebration of footy. And then the final’s season of 13 matches without distractions. What joy.

Summation

What a dream – a much more exciting and interesting season in six phases – a pre season competition, the first 17 rounds, the final 5 rounds, Awards Week, three weeks of round robin preliminary finals (no semis, elimination or qualifying needed) and a MONSTER GRAND FINAL. That’s what footy is all about. Why not?

 

With 4 finals played at same time you have reduced value of broadcast rights.?

[whatwhat say what 22,949]

scarcity would be the best result imo

it'll never happen due to broadcast rights and the desire to maximise contracts and eyeballs etc., but in an 18 team competition a 17 game season where you play 8 home games one year and 9 home games the following year would be my preferred model

[leucopogon 1,519]

25 minutes ago, tiers said:

That's why my original suggestion of  1,4,7,10,13,16 / 2,5,8,11,14,17 / 3,6,9,12,15,18 is so much better. Every te4am has a chance to improve.

Agree with this. Instead of your finals season idea though, I think they should stick with the current top 8 system with a minor tweak. Team finishing 1st who wins the QF gets to play the lowest ranked winner of the Semi Finals. As it currently stands, the team that finishes 2nd has a potentially easier path to the GF, most likely playing the side that finished 4th in the prelim, vs the top team who probably plays the 3rd team to get into the GF.

Granted, the likelihood of games featuring the same opponents in the QFs and PFs is high, but it's finals, who cares? The potential for grudge rematches in the PFs would be epic.

Edited July 21, 2023 by leucopogon

[tiers 2,843]

4 minutes ago, Bystander said:

With 4 finals played at same time you have reduced value of broadcast rights.?

So what. Four seriously competitive games in each of the first two weeks of the finals where every score counts (remember % counts) plus four simultaneous games in the third week could potentially enhance the rights.

[GM11 782]

15 minutes ago, leucopogon said:

The only problem with these groupings is the bottom 6. What a bunch of meaningless games to end their season. And what if you are a team sitting in 13th like the Suns are now one game out of the 8? Come the end of round 17 it's season over?!?

Could be interesting. A tanking contest?

[leucopogon 1,519]

9 minutes ago, tiers said:

So what. Four seriously competitive games in each of the first two weeks of the finals where every score counts (remember % counts) plus four simultaneous games in the third week could potentially enhance the rights.

Agreed, it's an expansion of the finals games from 9 currently over a four week period to 13 games over a 5 week period. Ditch the pre- finals bye, add in a PF round before the GF (top 2 from each group qualify) and that's 15 games in 5 weeks.

Broadcasters would love it. Not sure about the impact on the clubs that play the finals. Late starts to preseason and all that. Would certainly be more difficult to back up a flag tilt the following year after a gruelling 5 week finals season to finish the year.

Edited July 21, 2023 by leucopogon

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

1 hour ago, Bystander said:

With 4 finals played at same time you have reduced value of broadcast rights.?

Yes exactly, won't happen

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

Whilst we all call the current set up a fixture rather than a draw, I don't see the need to drastically change something that ain't necessarily broke.

20-something games, a bye before finals and then the current finals system. Seems to work ok to me

Change to a 17+6 and some sort of round robin finals is playing with 🔥 

[kev martin 10,417]

1 hour ago, tiers said:

Divide the top eight clubs into 2 groups of four – 1,3,5,7 and 2,4,6,8 –

In the early years of AFLW they had this order. There was an apparent lopsideness, with good teams in one group and some easy beats in the other. Large percentage, and win loss differences entailed. The observer could see that the best did not have an equal chance to play.

Better not to split into divisions. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

1 hour ago, GM11 said:

Could be interesting. A tanking contest?

Id go one better. Relegation. Solves a lot of problems and the AFL can hand out a bunch of additional 'prospective licenses' to get better representation across the country. At any one time you could then have 1-2 Tassie teams, 3 SA or 3 WA Teams, a team from NT all within the confines of an 18 team AFL competition. This way you, don't have to prop up tankers, multi-year failures (in WA, NM) etc. Let them rebuild in the 2nd tier comp. The 2nd tier comps (SAFL, WAFL, VFL etc could then have a playoff to come into the AFL)

Would do an awful lot for equalisation. We are the perfect competition for it as the teams don't own the stadiums / infrastructure, so its a bit of plug-in-play with franchises. 

Would be a ballsy move and would disadvantage a lot of established clubs (inc us) as we no longer have permanent tenure in the AFL, but in the long run would be in the best interest of a national competition. 

[Gawn's Beard 378]

2 hours ago, leucopogon said:

The only problem with these groupings is the bottom 6. What a bunch of meaningless games to end their season. And what if you are a team sitting in 13th like the Suns are now one game out of the 8? Come the end of round 17 it's season over?!?

Agree with this, but perhaps you find a way to incentivize them? Team that tops the bottom 6 earns more lottery balls for the draft (assuming that the AFL wants to introduce this at some point). Or include them in whatever wildcard / playoff the afl want to introduce. 

No disrespect intended, however you already have a bunch of meaningless games at this stage of the season. By having WCE for example playing against the teams around them they may stand a chance of winning a game or two and building some momentum into the following season. Their fans might actually be more engaged?

[Emerald 1,744]

3 hours ago, leucopogon said:

 who gets home ground advantage? 

Probably Geelong.

[Sydney_Demon 1,175]

8 hours ago, leucopogon said:

Interesting. Couple of questions. In the finals season, where are the games played, who gets home ground advantage? And, as you say the incentive for finishing in the top 4 is diminished in your system, it seems that the team finishing 2nd has an easier road to the GF being matched up to teams 4+6+8 (=18) vs the top team who is matched against teams in positions 3+5+7 (=15). 

Perhaps the final season groupings could be 1,6,7,8 and 2,3,4,5 to really incentivise finishing top of the ladder.

1,6,7,8 rewards Team 1 which I like but also aids 6,7,8. They all have 1 tough game and 2 easy ones and have easier draws than any of teams 2,3,4,5! The current Final 8 isn't perfect (there's not enough graded differentiation across the 1-4 & 5-8 ranges) but I think there should be a reward for finishing higher up the ladder which the Top 4 double-chance does.  

[Sydney_Demon 1,175]

I posted this earlier under the Wildcard thread but it probably belongs here instead. It was in response to round robin groupings 1-6, 7-12, 13-18 with no promotions between the groups (which apparently is the option CEO's are looking at:

Downsides:

You are basically making it a 17 game season because the 7th-12th teams are competing for 2 positions that they'll find it virtually impossible to win the premiership from. After 17 rounds this season St Kilda in 6th position have a 9-8 record and a percentage of 104.3%, but more typically you would need a 10-7 record. On that basis fans of lower teams would be tuning out after about Round 10. At least now, apart from the absolute bottom teams, there's still a mathematical chance of getting Top 8 (even Top 5 or 6). Do we really want to consign teams to the rubbish heap so early in the season? Very demotivating for fans. Also, it really works against teams coming home with a big rush and playing good footy coming into the finals.

Let's look at what's going to happen post-Round 17. You'll potentially have teams in the lower reaches of the Top 6 resting players once they know they can't make Top 4. Contrary to the idea of 8-point games, for the last 2-3 rounds of the season you'll have teams not really being competitive because they know they can't drop any lower on the ladder. That compromises the whole fixture. Right now you've got teams needing to keep winning and being extremely motivated. There's about 6 or 7 games each week involving at least 1 team that's competing for finals. Instead we'll have at least 3 games every week between 13th-18th teams (and maybe even a game in the 7th-12th bracket) that are of absolutely no interest. In fact, for those tanking conspiracy theorists, there's every reason to tank in the bottom bracket, you can't get higher than 13th so you might as well finish lower and get better draft picks.

And finally, this only works with 18 teams and 22 rounds.

There's nothing wrong with the current system. Yes, its inequitable but so is the draft. Why do we need a totally equitable fixture? It's all part of equalisation which is a good thing. Even if the AFL do want to improve equity, surely they could just change the fixture to distribute the 6 second-team games more evenly. A much easier solution and then there's still the flexibility to play 23 or 24 rounds of 9 matches.