Trying to be constructive here for the guys on the pod; but a few thoughts.

I simply have trouble listening to this curse/loading stuff for over a third of the year as the pivot of all our ills.

And the way it is delivered is almost gaslighting which I think is what Andy is reacting to - it simply isn’t the solution to all our issues. Every team of note does it and it may play a part in form issues across the league amongst OTHER things that can be discussed without the constant retort being about loading being the reason for whatever issue is seen.

I enjoy listening to the thoughts on the pod to challenge my own and I find the pod more enjoyable than the Deebrief where you can go 20 mins with only hyena-like laughter, in jokes, nicknames of players, and pure nonsense.

So well done, but … pls…pls

4 hours ago, rpfc said:

Trying to be constructive here for the guys on the pod; but a few thoughts.

I simply have trouble listening to this curse/loading stuff for over a third of the year as the pivot of all our ills.

And the way it is delivered is almost gaslighting which I think is what Andy is reacting to - it simply isn’t the solution to all our issues. Every team of note does it and it may play a part in form issues across the league amongst OTHER things that can be discussed without the constant retort being about loading being the reason for whatever issue is seen.

I enjoy listening to the thoughts on the pod to challenge my own and I find the pod more enjoyable than the Deebrief where you can go 20 mins with only hyena-like laughter, in jokes, nicknames of players, and pure nonsense.

So well done, but … pls…pls

Agree.  Clearances is one aspect of the game that shouldn't be as affected by loading as they start from a stop in play. As others have said all top teams are probably loading anyway. Up to round 16 we are a fair way behind last year's performance and they clearly need work to get back to where we were.

Type                         Ranking 2022   2021 

Centre Clearances      13th                 7th

Stoppage clearances    7th                5th

Overall clearances        10th               4th

We are behind our main competitors on clearances Lions 4th, Cats 5th and Dockers 6th. 

We are also 11th for Hitout wins percentage behind main competitors Cats, Lions, Dockers. Against the Cats we won hitouts 49 to 36 but still lost clearances by a whopping -18, 36 to 54. They doubled us in centre clearances 16 to 8 and stoppages 38 to 28. It goes a long way to explaining the loss irrespective of loading. 

Here's a stark stat from OTC. Trac and Clarry have delivered the ball i50 46 times in the past 5 weeks for a total of 2 marks. Trac 28 times for 2, Clarry 18 for "0"!! I don't have any stats to compare these to but it can't be good. 

All our forwards are also down on last year. Ben Brown has won 7 of 45 contests, I read somewhere that he's won 1 of 21 one on ones. He's played the same amount of games as the whole of last year 13, but isn't terribly off on goals 21 to 25 last year. According to OTC Jackson is the number one marking forward in the Comp yet he's only kicked 8 goals for the year. Kossie has kicked 20 at 1.3, last year was 40 in 25 games at av 1.6, Spargo 6 at 0.4, last year 18 at av 0.7, Fritsch 34 at 2.1, last year 59 at 2.5. 

  This all seems mostly fixable. I don't know how you fix out of form players before it's too late but they seem to lay it on and off for clearances. It was a worry they didn't fix it against the Cats but far from panic stations just yet. 

1 hour ago, Its Time for Back to Back said:

Agree.  Clearances is one aspect of the game that shouldn't be as affected by loading as they start from a stop in play. As others have said all top teams are probably loading anyway. Up to round 16 we are a fair way behind last year's performance and they clearly need work to get back to where we were.

Type                         Ranking 2022   2021 

Centre Clearances      13th                 7th

Stoppage clearances    7th                5th

Overall clearances        10th               4th

We are behind our main competitors on clearances Lions 4th, Cats 5th and Dockers 6th. 

We are also 11th for Hitout wins percentage behind main competitors Cats, Lions, Dockers. Against the Cats we won hitouts 49 to 36 but still lost clearances by a whopping -18, 36 to 54. They doubled us in centre clearances 16 to 8 and stoppages 38 to 28. It goes a long way to explaining the loss irrespective of loading. 

Here's a stark stat from OTC. Trac and Clarry have delivered the ball i50 46 times in the past 5 weeks for a total of 2 marks. Trac 28 times for 2, Clarry 18 for "0"!! I don't have any stats to compare these to but it can't be good. 

All our forwards are also down on last year. Ben Brown has won 7 of 45 contests, I read somewhere that he's won 1 of 21 one on ones. He's played the same amount of games as the whole of last year 13, but isn't terribly off on goals 21 to 25 last year. According to OTC Jackson is the number one marking forward in the Comp yet he's only kicked 8 goals for the year. Kossie has kicked 20 at 1.3, last year was 40 in 25 games at av 1.6, Spargo 6 at 0.4, last year 18 at av 0.7, Fritsch 34 at 2.1, last year 59 at 2.5. 

  This all seems mostly fixable. I don't know how you fix out of form players before it's too late but they seem to lay it on and off for clearances. It was a worry they didn't fix it against the Cats but far from panic stations just yet. 

Don’t have any stats to back this up, but be interested to see if opposition teams are sharking Max’s hitouts better than last year. 

There have been many games when Max is dominating hit outs but it doesn’t appear to translate to clearances. 

Trac & Clarry had just about their best games for the year when Weid, and M.Brown were ruck. Viney was great that game also, and we won the clearances.

Does Max try and do too much, when he is dominating hitouts? Rather than just playing the percentages and letting our champion midfielders win the contested ball? Don’t know ruck craft well enough to have the answer. But be interested in other views? 
 

I might sound like a prude but I love that I can listen to a pod without any bloody swearing. I quite like the Deebrief but guys,, drop the constant F bombs. I can’t listen to it in the house because I don’t want the kids to hear it. 

Great show guys – I loved the passion and robust conversation, all done in a respectful way.

Reading through the replies on this thread, it made me think of that fast disclaimer at the end of superannuation and investment ads… “Past performance is not an indicator of future performance”.

I don’t assume @binman and others are implying that because we went through a similar form drop last year, that it must mean this year we are a certainty to improve as we did across the final seven games in 2021. But to highlight that the football department knows how to peak at the right time, and that they may likely do the same again this year. MAY. Not WILL.

In all team sports that have a post-season, the teams expecting to be there at the pointy end, all have periods where they look toward the finals / playoffs beginning. In the NBA (82 games) and MLB (162 games) there are periods where they accept that losses will occur due to fixturing and the need to rest and then load up the fitness of key players across a long season.

Across foreign and domestic competitions like these, you need a greater than 70 percent winning rate to guarantee optimal post-season conditions (home ground advantage in US sports / double chance in AFL).

Further, there is no additional benefit to running at an 85, 90, or 100 percent winning record once you guarantee the double chance. Now in an AFL season with only 22 games, you couldn’t guarantee this earlier than round 16 (going 16-0). The question becomes - do you do everything to bank those 16 wins as early as possible and then begin preparing for finals and risk it being too late? Or make judgement calls in season to prepare for the finals in the best possible way while also doing your best to (first) qualify and then finish top 4?

Reading through this forum in the off-season, the collective wisdom of users identified that we would become ‘The Hunted’, that opposition coaches will be studying our style and dissecting it, and coming up with strategies to beat us.

If we worked that out than so too did the football department. They would likely have looked at the fixture and considered each game through that lens. They would have developed a strategy on how to manage the teams mental and emotional energy given that we would be a lot of teams ‘grand final’.

They would have set targets for where they aimed to be at certain points in the season, and how they would adjust various fitness and player management schedules based on those metrics, e.g. aim to be 7-2 (or better) at round 9 to implement an aggressive loading schedule versus a record of 5-4 where a more moderate loading schedule would be applied.

This strategy would be tweaked and changed based on injuries, team form, and the quality of opposition we face. That is why it is risky to compare 2021 to 2022 too closely. In 2021 we (mostly) played poorly against bad sides whereas in 2022 we have only lost to top sides. Firstly, our fixture is different and secondly, we’re the benchmark in 2022 when we weren’t in 2021.

I’m sure this is highly biased as a dee’s supporter, but it has felt as though most teams this year have really brought the heat against us for at least a half (relative to their overall quality). I can’t be the only one who has felt that. You don’t want to exhaust the team mentally and emotionally by trying to raise the stakes for our players (across 22 games) to the same level that opposition players have instinctively purely because they are playing the reigning premiers.  

No coach or player wants to lose any given game of football. However, the FD will have what they are willing to change and risk in order to win any given game, based on their season strategy. If a team is so superior in quality and application that it can juggle it’s finals preparation objectives while also winning 22 straight games, I imagine that is what would happen.

Goodwin and the FD will plan for, and go into each match with a plan they think gives them the best chance to win the game within the context of the larger season objectives. They will have things they plan to try / test out in game, and small tweaks to the gameday tactics they will utilize to win that game.

What they can’t account for is the oppositions desire and application, and the changes in tactics they implement to wrestle back control of the game.

Goody may or may not have had answers to the tactics Geelong used to control and win Thursday nights game. However, what he now has is additional tactics that Geelong and other teams might use to beat us in the remaining (up to) 10 rounds of the season. What opposition coaches do not have is the counter measures Goodwin may employ to counter those tactics. Whether that is by chance or by design is (almost) irrelevant because the opportunities it presents are the same in either scenario.

The Bulldogs played an almost perfect 1.5 quarters in the Grand Final and got 19 points up. Goodwin had faith that our preparation would allow us to weather the storm and eventually wrestle back momentum. And that when we did, we’d have the explosiveness to pull away.

At this point in the season, we will soon learn whether there is method in the madness of our form slump, or if we’re just not as good as we hoped we would be this year. But while we’re in 2^nd and with more points For and fewer Against than at the same time last season, I’ll put faith in the FD that delivered us a premiership.

 

11 hours ago, Phil C said:

I might sound like a prude but I love that I can listen to a pod without any bloody swearing. I quite like the Deebrief but guys,, drop the constant F bombs. I can’t listen to it in the house because I don’t want the kids to hear it. 

I think I dropped a rare f-bomb in this weeks show so I apologise for that. 

On 7/13/2022 at 8:24 AM, rpfc said:

the pivot of all our ills

In binman’s defence, he’s never claimed that loading is the pivot of all our ills, only that it simply has to be a significant factor when one applies logic and history. What his work on the podcast (at the risk of repetition, the best Dees podcast) in fact adds is a sensible appreciation that footy success or otherwise comes down to multiple variables. 

1 hour ago, Webber said:

In binman’s defence, he’s never claimed that loading is the pivot of all our ills, only that it simply has to be a significant factor when one applies logic and history. What his work on the podcast (at the risk of repetition, the best Dees podcast) in fact adds is a sensible appreciation that footy success or otherwise comes down to multiple variables. 

I used the word ‘pivot’ deliberately. It’s not that it is used as a significant factor - for a few weeks it is. My issue is that whatever critique is made on something else, the pivot to loading as the reason/answer to that critique is dismissing and quite frustrating.

I will put it another way; loading is like sport in general. Sport doesn’t create character - it reveals it, in the same way that loading doesn’t create functional issues, they reveal them.

Loading has impacted our fortunes, of course it has, but it has also revealed underlying issues that were there before around connection and pressure.

And to have those concerns ameliorated with the mention of loading is getting harder to listen to.

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

Sport doesn’t create character - it reveals it,

You don’t reckon it reveals AND creates? Great chicken and egg topic on its own, or nature-nurture as you like. 

 

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

loading doesn’t create functional issues, they reveal them.

To me, this is implicit in the argument. Otherwise we’d be suggesting a level of pre-loading perfection that only loading can render imperfect.

 

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

Loading has impacted our fortunes, of course it has, but it has also revealed underlying issues that were there before around connection and pressure

Which binman has frequently illuminated, detailing how our winning game is built around pressure, which duly rolls on to improve connection in the forward line. When these are affected - by loading or otherwise - our game drops away. I don’t hear that he’s denying the natural variability of the factors our best game is built on.

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

I used the word ‘pivot’ deliberately. It’s not that it is used as a significant factor - for a few weeks it is. My issue is that whatever critique is made on something else, the pivot to loading as the reason/answer to that critique is dismissing and quite frustrating.

I will put it another way; loading is like sport in general. Sport doesn’t create character - it reveals it, in the same way that loading doesn’t create functional issues, they reveal them.

Loading has impacted our fortunes, of course it has, but it has also revealed underlying issues that were there before around connection and pressure.

And to have those concerns ameliorated with the mention of loading is getting harder to listen to.

That’s a fair comment. So what you are saying, is even if loading fixes some of the weaknesses, when we are back running on top of the ground :- in the interim why not also try and address some of the issues that have been exposed?(potentially through loading fatigue)

I think the frustrating and challenging part for supporters, is seeing us make the same mistakes without change. The difficult part is we don’t know which of these challenges the FD are comfortable to wear in the short term, because they have confidence that they won’t be there when we are at our best. 
 

Edited July 14, 20222 yr by 1964_2

A game plan can’t be assessed as working or failing if the players are simply too fatigued to execute it. Any game plan that doesn’t fit a teams fitness level (and skill and experience level) always looks dysfunctional, but because we are wedded to the game plan, we continue to use the same one during this period of fatigue because we want it to be purely instinctive for the players.  Yes, there could be better short term outcomes if the game plan is changed while we are fatigued,  but only at a possible loss to long term performance.

When the fatigue isn’t there, the hope is that all the pieces that currently look so dysfunctional will come together. From a speculative point of view, perhaps one of the reasons why loading appeared to stop 3 or 4 weeks before finals in 2021 was to give the coaching group some weeks of non-loading affected games to properly assess how the game plan looked to allow some tinkering if needed.

1 hour ago, Webber said:

You don’t reckon it reveals AND creates? Great chicken and egg topic on its own, or nature-nurture as you like. 

 

To me, this is implicit in the argument. Otherwise we’d be suggesting a level of pre-loading perfection that only loading can render imperfect.

 

Which binman has frequently illuminated, detailing how our winning game is built around pressure, which duly rolls on to improve connection in the forward line. When these are affected - by loading or otherwise - our game drops away. I don’t hear that he’s denying the natural variability of the factors our best game is built on.

And it is a fine argument, diluted by the constant refrain for two months of the season.

You know me, I love the grey; nothing is wholly right or wrong. It is in the debate that we achieve illumination. I just feel that this loading argument can be noted and argued amongst the other critiques of how we are playing and want to be playing. 

I will leave it there, at some point constructive criticism turns in on itself and I don’t mean to pick on Binman or anyone else. If I don’t like it, I don’t have to listen.

rp

6 hours ago, Demonland said:

I think I dropped a rare f-bomb in this weeks show so I apologise for that. 

I must have missed that Andy! You guys do a great job, keep it up. 

17 minutes ago, Phil C said:

I must have missed that Andy! You guys do a great job, keep it up. 

It was when describing what our situation would be like if we didn’t have Gus saving us with his intercept marking. 

I wanna know under what username “Crazy Andy” posts. I think I like Crazy Andy. 😁 

On 7/14/2022 at 2:30 PM, rpfc said:

And it is a fine argument, diluted by the constant refrain for two months of the season.

You know me, I love the grey; nothing is wholly right or wrong. It is in the debate that we achieve illumination. I just feel that this loading argument can be noted and argued amongst the other critiques of how we are playing and want to be playing. 

I will leave it there, at some point constructive criticism turns in on itself and I don’t mean to pick on Binman or anyone else. If I don’t like it, I don’t have to listen.

rp

I appreciate the feedback rpfc, and will take it on board.

Ironically, my curse shtick was an attempt to make light of the loading stuff and move on - but probably had the opposite effect.

You mentioned you felt gaslighted. That's how you feel, so I hear that.

But it's an interesting choice of words, because it means someone is trying to mess with your head with demonstrably made up stuff (came from a film from the 1940s, whose name I forget, where the husband deliberately tries to send his wife crazy by saying the gas lights are on, when they're not).

I say that, because i think you have touched on a fundamental difference in perspective.

I am firmly of the belief that the loading we have been doing IS the major factor in our from since the beginning of June.

I could not have been clearer, that I don't think it is the only issue, or that once tapering us done, all or issues will be resolved.

For example, as i pointed out the week before tmac got injured, and several times since, our second tall forward is a problem as our two tall set up us critical to our sytem and weed doesn't look likely to be an adequate replacement for Brown or tmac.

Again, an issue I have noted quite often, is our lack of a gun small defender like jetts at his best.

But in my opinion, loading IS the biggest factor and I simply don't share your concerns about the issues you highlighted in your first post in this thread (ie connection, forward line, pressure etc etc). Or at least, not nearly to the same extent. 

This quote from Vipercrunch sums up my perspective perfectly:

"The game plan can’t be assessed as working or failing if the players are simply too fatigued to execute it. Any game plan that doesn’t fit a teams fitness level (and skill and experience level) always looks dysfunctional, but because we are wedded to the game plan, we continue to use the same one during this period of fatigue because we want it to be purely instinctive for the players.  Yes, there could be better short term outcomes if the game plan is changed while we are fatigued,  but only at a possible loss to long term performance.'

I understand you disagree with me. But that doesn't mean my perspective is wrong, and certainly is not evidence of me trying to gaslight anyone.

If I was honest, perhaps there probably is an element of frustration on my behalf. I made all these same arguments last year. And got hammered on dl for those views, with the exception of a very small handfull of posters who agreed with me. Apparently  I was delusional.

So confident was i that I had assessed things correctly, I had a sizeable bet on us to win rhe flag the day after we got beaten in round 19 by the dogs. I got $5.50. The cats were favourites and the dogs second favourite.

Four weeks later we started the final series as $2.00 favourite for the flag, going on to crush the tired dogs to win tbe flag.

I was proven right - though of course the doubters and my many critics would argue we magically addressed the 'real' issues (which were basically the same as those being listed now). 

Bur it wasn't magic. As viper noted the model's effectiveness is predicated on an optimal level of fitness.

And post round 19 we were demonstrably more energised and  powerful than when we were in our loading phasse AND in comparison to our opponents. So there was no magic in our form turnaround, no sudden radical changes in game plan, attitude, personelle, tactics, strategies, roles etc. 

The sudden abilty to score 100 plus points a game and destroy opponents wasn't a function of the connection issue being 'fixed'. It was a function of our ability to maintain our swarm all game and run our hapless opponents into the turf.

Which is clearly what Scott was talking about when he said they had to do something different with their loading regime, to go 'harder' to have a chance to win this year's flag.

He didn't mention the dees. He didn't need to

And of course none of those who jumped on me for my opinion came back and said, ok in hindsight you got this one right binman.

And this year, it's not as if I have been smart in hindsight. I accurately predicted the downturn in form before it happened. And said we would struggle in much the way we have.

It seems so logical,  and tbe evidence si compelling, that loading is the major factor in our current form, that I find it hard to see how anyone could hold an alternative view.

But they do - and that's OK of course.

But equally my view is valid. 

But picking up your key point, I'll bang on about it less.

Edited July 17, 20222 yr by binman

19 minutes ago, binman said:

(came from a film from the 1930s, whose name I forget, where the husband deliberately tries to send his wife crazy by saying the gas lights are on, when they're not).

Err ... Gaslight (1944)?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1944_film)

Edited July 17, 20222 yr by Demonised
forgot to add text

11 minutes ago, Demonised said:

Err ... Gaslight (1944)?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1944_film)

That's the remake, but both were made in the 40s.

RE the discussion around being gaslit and the pivot to loading - loading has an impact on everything, so of course it's the "pivot". If you don't like it, that's your prerogative, but doesn't make it any less fundamental.

I'd argue to claim you're being gaslit and essentially to stop pivoting to the argument, you're suppressing debate.

It's not like Binman and many others on Demonland never discuss the flaws in our game from week to week, but that the loading regime can explain many of the ebbs and flows in our game, and in any team's game. It's just every team does loading differently.

 

1 hour ago, Demonised said:

Err ... Gaslight (1944)?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1944_film)

Oops. Got the decade wrong. Unforgivable 

A good film's a good film, in any decade. And this one had Ingrid Bergman. Well worth watching.

7 hours ago, binman said:

I appreciate the feedback rpfc, and will take it on board.

Ironically, my curse shtick was an attempt to make light of the loading stuff and move on - but probably had the opposite effect.

You mentioned you felt gaslighted. That's how you feel, so I hear that.

But it's an interesting choice of words, because it means someone is trying to mess with your head with demonstrably made up stuff (came from a film from the 1940s, whose name I forget, where the husband deliberately tries to send his wife crazy by saying the gas lights are on, when they're not).

I say that, because i think you have touched on a fundamental difference in perspective.

I am firmly of the belief that the loading we have been doing IS the major factor in our from since the beginning of June.

I could not have been clearer, that I don't think it is the only issue, or that once tapering us done, all or issues will be resolved.

For example, as i pointed out the week before tmac got injured, and several times since, our second tall forward is a problem as our two tall set up us critical to our sytem and weed doesn't look likely to be an adequate replacement for Brown or tmac.

Again, an issue I have noted quite often, is our lack of a gun small defender like jetts at his best.

But in my opinion, loading IS the biggest factor and I simply don't share your concerns about the issues you highlighted in your first post in this thread (ie connection, forward line, pressure etc etc). Or at least, not nearly to the same extent. 

This quote from Vipercrunch sums up my perspective perfectly:

"The game plan can’t be assessed as working or failing if the players are simply too fatigued to execute it. Any game plan that doesn’t fit a teams fitness level (and skill and experience level) always looks dysfunctional, but because we are wedded to the game plan, we continue to use the same one during this period of fatigue because we want it to be purely instinctive for the players.  Yes, there could be better short term outcomes if the game plan is changed while we are fatigued,  but only at a possible loss to long term performance.'

I understand you disagree with me. But that doesn't mean my perspective is wrong, and certainly is not evidence of me trying to gaslight anyone.

If I was honest, perhaps there probably is an element of frustration on my behalf. I made all these same arguments last year. And got hammered on dl for those views, with the exception of a very small handfull of posters who agreed with me. Apparently  I was delusional.

So confident was i that I had assessed things correctly, I had a sizeable bet on us to win rhe flag the day after we got beaten in round 19 by the dogs. I got $5.50. The cats were favourites and the dogs second favourite.

Four weeks later we started the final series as $2.00 favourite for the flag, going on to crush the tired dogs to win tbe flag.

I was proven right - though of course the doubters and my many critics would argue we magically addressed the 'real' issues (which were basically the same as those being listed now). 

Bur it wasn't magic. As viper noted the model's effectiveness is predicated on an optimal level of fitness.

And post round 19 we were demonstrably more energised and  powerful than when we were in our loading phasse AND in comparison to our opponents. So there was no magic in our form turnaround, no sudden radical changes in game plan, attitude, personelle, tactics, strategies, roles etc. 

The sudden abilty to score 100 plus points a game and destroy opponents wasn't a function of the connection issue being 'fixed'. It was a function of our ability to maintain our swarm all game and run our hapless opponents into the turf.

Which is clearly what Scott was talking about when he said they had to do something different with their loading regime, to go 'harder' to have a chance to win this year's flag.

He didn't mention the dees. He didn't need to

And of course none of those who jumped on me for my opinion came back and said, ok in hindsight you got this one right binman.

And this year, it's not as if I have been smart in hindsight. I accurately predicted the downturn in form before it happened. And said we would struggle in much the way we have.

It seems so logical,  and tbe evidence si compelling, that loading is the major factor in our current form, that I find it hard to see how anyone could hold an alternative view.

But they do - and that's OK of course.

But equally my view is valid. 

But picking up your key point, I'll bang on about it less.

Thanks Binman. We disagree and that’s ok. Gaslight was not the right word and we agree on most things with emphasis on different things. 

Look forward to the podcast, and my worries remain about our pressure and ball movement with a really crucial game coming up for a home QF chance.

My biggest worry is the players mindset in contests is not instinctive and immediate and the same for their positioning and run. We just don’t turn it over where we do when we are at our best.

It can come back to us but the players that drove us to a flag were not the stars - they got us in the conversation - the players that made us dominant were the role players that are really struggling right now (Spargo, Fritsch, Sparrow, Harmes, et al).

16 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Thanks Binman. We disagree and that’s ok. Gaslight was not the right word and we agree on most things with emphasis on different things. 

Look forward to the podcast, and my worries remain about our pressure and ball movement with a really crucial game coming up for a home QF chance.

My biggest worry is the players mindset in contests is not instinctive and immediate and the same for their positioning and run. We just don’t turn it over where we do when we are at our best.

It can come back to us but the players that drove us to a flag were not the stars - they got us in the conversation - the players that made us dominant were the role players that are really struggling right now (Spargo, Fritsch, Sparrow, Harmes, et al).

Everything you just said is pretty much exactly the same “issues” identified after our R18 draw to Hawthorn last year (and R19 loss to the dogs) 

But I will also take a hint and not mention the forbidden subject. 
 

29 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Everything you just said is pretty much exactly the same “issues” identified after our R18 draw to Hawthorn last year (and R19 loss to the dogs) 

But I will also take a hint and not mention the forbidden subject. 
 

They’re the fundamentals of how we play, so that shouldn’t surprise.

On 7/11/2022 at 6:56 PM, Doug Reemer said:

Won’t happen.

Did happen