Has lack of exposure to backslappers played a role in our rise this year?

[Guest]

I need to establish two things before I proceed:

Firstly, I am not going full Doctor Who and blaming the fans (though he went from an entirely opposite perspective to what I am about to say).

Secondly, there are clearly a lot of other factors that have gone into why we have been as good as we have been: canny recruiting, age profile, revamped coaching group and change in mentality from ‘chaos football’ to ‘strangulation football’.

With that out of the way, I have been thinking about how lockdowns have affected the AFL season and in particular Melbourne.

This, and last year, the AFL has been robbed of a genuine ‘September football experience’. When I say that, I mean that everywhere the players go, be that the servo, the corner cafe or at their kid’s primary school, people aren’t wanting to talk about the footy and aren’t patting them on the back. Supporters aren’t allowed into the ground, but they aren’t also allowed into training either. Sure, there are still puff pieces in the paper and on TV, but the amount of bath water for the players to drink has been rationed.

With that being said, has this lesser exposure to Victorian football culture been helpful for us? I wrote in previous threads that this year seems surreal. By this stage, we have usually shown what type of team we are, and collapsed in a heap when the pressure is on and accolades handed out. 

This hasn’t been the case and we have held our nerve so far (this statement will bear scrutiny over the next few weeks). It’s only a theory, but what do others think?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Colin B. Flaubert
One slight change not worth mentioning

[Lord Nev 13,512]

I've always thought the 'backslapping' and 'bath water drinking' was more an issue in the playing group around each other, rather than coming from Dees supporters who are famously fragile and weary of any kind of success.

 

[Pates 9,672]

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I've always thought the 'backslapping' and 'bath water drinking' was more an issue in the playing group around each other, rather than coming from Dees supporters who are famously fragile and weary of any kind of success.

 

Agreed, I think any time Melbourne has been up and about the fans have been cautiously optimistic about the form (see 9-0 and still fans being hesitant to actually considering us as a good footy club). The backslapping has been down more to players getting ahead of themselves and not focusing on the job at hand, which we’ve experienced with stupid losses to lesser teams. The difference this year is that the club has been able to refocus and get back on the straight and narrow. Not losing twice in a row in a H&A season is unheard of in my time as a Dees fan. 

I also feel like there’s a big “jobs not done” feeling, whereas I felt that in 2018 when we won those finals the players felt they’d already accomplish something. They had but it meant there was very little fire against West Coast. 

[daisycutter 29,892]

don't forget social media

has not been affected by lockdowns......if anything has increased

plenty of exposure to fans (and critics and trolls)

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

I think the 'drinking your own bath water' narrative/argument is pretty weak and doesn't come with much to support it.

It comes across as an emotional response from angry supporters, rather than a rational one.

I'm certainly not saying it doesn't happen, but rather it is not as likely as other explanations for a lack of success e.g personnel, strategy, experience etc.

I think this is particularly true at the elite level where the mental aspects of the game are analysed and picked apart to the nth degree.

[daisycutter 29,892]

56 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I think this is particularly true at the elite level where the mental aspects of the game are analysed and picked apart to the nth degree.

and they still can't fix basic goal kicking skills......lol

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I think the 'drinking your own bath water' narrative/argument is pretty weak and doesn't come with much to support it.

It comes across as an emotional response from angry supporters, rather than a rational one.

I'm certainly not saying it doesn't happen, but rather it is not as likely as other explanations for a lack of success e.g personnel, strategy, experience etc.

I think this is particularly true at the elite level where the mental aspects of the game are analysed and picked apart to the nth degree.

It’s not something I’d say is the sole reason why we’ve collapsed some years. It’s the same as why we’ve succeeded this year as well (so far).

For example, while I personally think the mid ‘00’s team were not great at handling expectations (highlighted by Neale saying after our loss to the Crows in the ‘02 SF that we needed to get ruthless as a club), we had a lot of other issues that stopped us from getting to the top. A lack of genuine A grade talent (we had a lot of B and B+ players but not the three or four A graders we have now), a fairly ad hoc backline, board instability, and subpar facilities all played a part as well. 

It’s not an either or equation by any stretch. 

While I must admit that it’s a bit removed from now, I remember Melbourne players of ‘88 saying that their exposure to the brighter glare of expectation in Grand Final week was definitely a factor in why they performed as badly as they did. I think Neita as well may have said something similar in ‘00. Garry Lyon wrote in ‘Demon Within’ that the players got ahead of themselves prior to losing to the Eagles in the ‘90 SF.

Those are not ‘bath water drinking’ per se (and admittedly, some are a bit long in the tooth), but it does show that mindset can impact how a team does perform.

[Engorged Onion 10,224]

45 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

It’s not something I’d say is the sole reason why we’ve collapsed some years. It’s the same as why we’ve succeeded this year as well (so far).

For example, while I personally think the mid ‘00’s team were not great at handling expectations (highlighted by Neale saying after our loss to the Crows in the ‘02 SF that we needed to get ruthless as a club), we had a lot of other issues that stopped us from getting to the top. A lack of genuine A grade talent (we had a lot of B and B+ players but not the three or four A graders we have now), a fairly ad hoc backline, board instability, and subpar facilities all played a part as well. 

It’s not an either or equation by any stretch. 

While I must admit that it’s a bit removed from now, I remember Melbourne players of ‘88 saying that their exposure to the brighter glare of expectation in Grand Final week was definitely a factor in why they performed as badly as they did. I think Neita as well may have said something similar in ‘00. Garry Lyon wrote in ‘Demon Within’ that the players got ahead of themselves prior to losing to the Eagles in the ‘90 SF.

Those are not ‘bath water drinking’ per se (and admittedly, some are a bit long in the tooth), but it does show that mindset can impact how a team does perform.

Picking apart language is important.

Inevitably under stress - you start to perform what we call 'safety behaviours;' - typically self protection, at this expense of the team.

For example , this may look like (flight) short little dinky kicks, unwillingness to zone off to 'try to influence' or (fight) see ball get ball midfielder - at the expense of structure.

So... in a big match - all of a sudden you are behind... so because of your stress you switch into safety behaviours  *note this is not getting ahead of your self

But supporters see it as the getting ahead/drinking the bathwater narrative. Because they are not in the maelstrom.

The beauty of Clarkson, Hardwick and now Goodwin (and I mean that seriously) - is that the system that he implemented becomes the default, and now its the maturity of the players (3-5 years) within that particular system -  that now becomes the default safety behaviours, its no longer guided by individual excellence, (historically , Lyon, Schwarz, Neitz, Farmer...) or individual anxiety (as much) as the expectation to get us over the line, the excellence is now adherance to structure - with clearly some very very good players elite at their roles - because a range of supporting players default back to their role/ (which are non safety behaviours) more effecitively and in a more timely manner - irrespective of the game (stress) situation.

It's  incredibly important  stuff - that we've never had as a club and importantly now have the players to implement certain roles at certain times.

It's not about individual excellence now for us - but we're fortunate that we do have a smattering of that across all lines now.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Picking apart language is important.

Inevitably under stress - you start to perform what we call 'safety behaviours;' - typically self protection, at this expense of the team.

This may look like (flight) short little dinky kicks or (fight) see ball get ball midfielder - at the expense of structure.

So... in a big match - all of a sudden you are behind... you switch into safety behaviours because you are stressed *note this is not getting ahead of your self

But supporters see it as drinking the bathwater narrative. Because they are not in the maelstrom.

The beauty of Clarkson, Hardwick and now Goodwin (and I mean that seriously) - is that the system that he implemented becomes the default, and now its the maturity of the players (3-5 years) within that particular system -  that now becomes the default safety behaviours, its no longer guided by individual excellence as the expectation to get us over the line, the excellence is now adherance to structure - with clearly some very very good players elite at their roles - because a range of supporting players default back to their role/ (which are non safety behaviours) more effecitively and in a more timely manner - irrespective of the game (stress) situation.

It's      f     u    c    k   i    n    g         fantastic stuff - that we've never had as a club. (and that's so important to empahsise, that i'm up for a scolding if the the censor lets that word through.

While not related to what you mentioned, you could see a phenomenon during 2013.

Blokes were so obsessed with trying to pull the iron out of the fire, which was often, they’d all be going for the pill with no regard to structure or outside outlets. Many were also scared for their future and wanted to rack up stats to avoid getting dropped.

 

[Engorged Onion 10,224]

6 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

While not related to what you mentioned, you could see a phenomenon during 2013.

Blokes were so obsessed with trying to pull the iron out of the fire, which was often, they’d all be going for the pill with no regard to structure or outside outlets. Many were also scared for their future and wanted to rack up stats to avoid getting dropped.

 

I am so impressed of peoples encyclopaedic memories of their football team (or anything really)...  You (amongst others on here), amaze me!

Edited August 21, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[Little Goffy 14,750]

It's a thing often noted with child prodigies that when they finally come up against something they can't do they can really struggle to focus on working through the problem systematically and they can get very emotional and angry about it.

Similar stories are told of the 'big' teenagers who developed a little earlier and had a bit more bulk and power as key forwards, dominating their teenage opponents but then getting a serious shock when they find themselves always the smaller guy at AFL level.

Just a hypothesis, but I think a lot of the tragic faliures of high draft picks (ours and in general) are partly that shock of suddenly finding you're only okay or, very commonly, hit the second-year blues where your game reaches a ceiling and opponents have worked you out. It takes a lot of personal courage to acknowledge you can't go on the same way that worked just fine for your first 18 years of life and to then change the way you go about things.

Jackson is our only very high draft pick since back in 2015 (Oliver and Weideman) and 2014 (Petracca and Brayshaw). He seems to have come in with a terrific attitude while the three midfielders have all been on the proverbial personal journeys to get where they are now. Weideman is the odd one out and I think his story supports the theory - he always seems to be playing with enormous pressure that he's put on himself. He'll miss doing the 'outstanding' and then the confidence drops and he'll struggle to follow up with the grunt work that keeps you involved in games.

I think it served us well to not have a couple of very early draft pick kids for a couple of years - not to mention that got us the very important characters of Lever and May.

Meanwhile, every other new kid on our list has had to prove themselves -after- they were drafted and do so by following instruction and playing according to the team's needs.

Sure, Pickett was a pretty early pick and had some pre-draft hype... but he is Aboriginal so, you know, has never really been allowed to feel completely secure.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

Sure, Pickett was a pretty early pick and had some pre-draft hype... but he is Aboriginal so, you know, has never really been allowed to feel completely secure.

Can you extrapolate on this? I’m not sure how to react to this as I’m not sure what premise this statement is based on. 😶

[Little Goffy 14,750]

3 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Can you extrapolate on this? I’m not sure how to react to this as I’m not sure what premise this statement is based on. 😶

I was hesitant to add that thought because it is all so complex, but then didn't want to add a further wall of text.

I don't personally favour the polarising 'Australia is wildly racist all the time' angle but there's no doubt that close enough to every Aboriginal person in Australia goes through life just a few steps away from the next time some b43t4rd will openly insult them or, much worse, undermine them.

But, yeah, not looking for a political angle here so much as just noting that for an Aboriginal kid there's... how to say it... always someone ready to tell you you don't belong.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

I was hesitant to add that thought because it is all so complex, but then didn't want to add a further wall of text.

I don't personally favour the polarising 'Australia is wildly racist all the time' angle but there's no doubt that close enough to every Aboriginal person in Australia goes through life just a few steps away from the next time some b43t4rd will openly insult them or, much worse, undermine them.

But, yeah, not looking for a political angle here so much as just noting that for an Aboriginal kid there's... how to say it... always someone ready to tell you you don't belong.

I see your point now, and I’m glad you clarified it. Sometimes, statements taken at face value can be misinterpreted and need to be walked through.  😎

Though it’s hard to individualize to Kozzie’s individual set of circumstances, if the week after the Eagles game is anything to judge by, he’s indubitably copped a lot of the same type of shif that countless Indigenous players have suffered.

Good examples probably are Matt Rendell’s comments of yesteryear, and the recruiting records of clubs like Geelong and Collingwood up to the ‘00s.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Colin B. Flaubert

[Engorged Onion 10,224]

5 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I see your point now, and I’m glad you clarified your point.Sometimes, statements taken at face value can be misinterpreted and need to be walked through.  😎

Though it’s hard to individualize to Kozzie’s individual set of circumstances, if the week after the Eagles game is anything to judge by, he’s indubitably copped a lot of the same type of shif that countless Indigenous players have suffered.

Good examples probably are Matt Rendell’s comments of yesteryear, and the recruiting records of clubs like Geelong and Collingwood up to the ‘00s.

Err - what where they? (pm if required)

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Err - what where they? (pm if required)

They’re on the public record so no need to worry about lawsuits: 

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/sorry-rendell-im-not-racist-20120319-1vg7l.html

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

5 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

It’s not something I’d say is the sole reason why we’ve collapsed some years. It’s the same as why we’ve succeeded this year as well (so far).

For example, while I personally think the mid ‘00’s team were not great at handling expectations (highlighted by Neale saying after our loss to the Crows in the ‘02 SF that we needed to get ruthless as a club), we had a lot of other issues that stopped us from getting to the top. A lack of genuine A grade talent (we had a lot of B and B+ players but not the three or four A graders we have now), a fairly ad hoc backline, board instability, and subpar facilities all played a part as well. 

It’s not an either or equation by any stretch. 

While I must admit that it’s a bit removed from now, I remember Melbourne players of ‘88 saying that their exposure to the brighter glare of expectation in Grand Final week was definitely a factor in why they performed as badly as they did. I think Neita as well may have said something similar in ‘00. Garry Lyon wrote in ‘Demon Within’ that the players got ahead of themselves prior to losing to the Eagles in the ‘90 SF.

Those are not ‘bath water drinking’ per se (and admittedly, some are a bit long in the tooth), but it does show that mindset can impact how a team does perform.

Yeah, that's a fair summation.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Not exactly relevant to the topic but in the last quarter when we were kicking all those goals our players weren’t getting too excited and over celebrating.

I liked it, it was just business as usual.

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,766]

The backslappers would have been in over drive after a win like that if people were allowed in the rooms after the game.

[Timothy Reddan-A'Blew 5,561]

12 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

but they aren’t also allowed into training either.

As an aside to the core thrust of the OP, this is a part of the 'September experience' normally gifted fans of the finals teams that is snatched from us. And no Gosch's sausage sizzling for me this year😒