TRADES, DELIST, PROMOTE

[xman97 108]

1 hour ago, A F said:

I love this sort of stuff, but what are you trying to tie this to? Are you saying that our list is far less experienced than the other two lists? 

Not really tying it to anything, nor do I think we should do too many changes like the Saints did last year. I’ve just had a bit of a look through some data this afternoon which got me thinking, do we go hard at the trade table or do just a couple of trades.

I’ve always been a believer in stability, with not more than say 7 changes a year. Team chemistry and mastering a game plan takes time together. But what the Saints did last year makes me want to go hard.

What’s your thoughts mate?

[adonski 10,805]

1 minute ago, xman97 said:

Not really tying it to anything, nor do I think we should do too many changes like the Saints did last year. I’ve just had a bit of a look through some data this afternoon which got me thinking, do we go hard at the trade table or do just a couple of trades.

I’ve always been a believer in stability, with not more than say 7 changes a year. Team chemistry and mastering a game plan takes time together. But what the Saints did last year makes me want to go hard.

What’s your thoughts mate?

Saints bought in players that their previous clubs were happy to let go. I don't put their improvement down to a few B grades. I think the Saints have overachieved.

[Adam The God 29,333]

14 minutes ago, xman97 said:

Not really tying it to anything, nor do I think we should do too many changes like the Saints did last year. I’ve just had a bit of a look through some data this afternoon which got me thinking, do we go hard at the trade table or do just a couple of trades.

I’ve always been a believer in stability, with not more than say 7 changes a year. Team chemistry and mastering a game plan takes time together. But what the Saints did last year makes me want to go hard.

What’s your thoughts mate?

I like the idea of bringing in outside depth. We're not sure if Baker will make it, so we need to be looking at the Polec's, the Smith's and anyone else that can provide run and carry, and good foot skills.

Likewise with the forwardline, we need to be target someone that can provide Weideman the support he needs, because I don't think we can trust McDonald to get his body right.

I'd be fine with bringing in 5 or 6 blokes from other teams and maybe 2 or 3 draftees. The core IMV that has had the continuity (and needs the continuity) you refer to is the midfield and the backline. Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Langdon have now had at least a year together (in the case of Langdon) and many more in the case of the other guys. Lever and May have played a whole season together. I like Tomlinson back there with them. Rivers gets another pre season under his belt, as do Pickett and Jackson. Add in Polec, Smith, Ben Brown and two more draftees and I think we'll be able to balance continuity with depth and improvement across all lines.

In other words, I reckon we need to be pretty active, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

[xman97 108]

9 minutes ago, A F said:

I like the idea of bringing in outside depth. We're not sure if Baker will make it, so we need to be looking at the Polec's, the Smith's and anyone else that can provide run and carry, and good foot skills.

Likewise with the forwardline, we need to be target someone that can provide Weideman the support he needs, because I don't think we can trust McDonald to get his body right.

I'd be fine with bringing in 5 or 6 blokes from other teams and maybe 2 or 3 draftees. The core IMV that has had the continuity (and needs the continuity) you refer to is the midfield and the backline. Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Langdon have now had at least a year together (in the case of Langdon) and many more in the case of the other guys. Lever and May have played a whole season together. I like Tomlinson back there with them. Rivers gets another pre season under his belt, as do Pickett and Jackson. Add in Polec, Smith, Ben Brown and two more draftees and I think we'll be able to balance continuity with depth and improvement across all lines.

In other words, I reckon we need to be pretty active, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

Yeh agree, I think the non negotiable is a Winger and a Key Forward which we’d be able to fit in with not too much issue in terms of salary cap. If we go for 5 or 6 A and B graders, we’re looking at making some hard calls on players to free up some space. 

[DeeSpencer 24,696]

4 hours ago, Turner said:

1yr: Bedford, Hibbo, Hore, Jordon, Spargo, Lockhart, Bradtke, Brown, Nietschke

2yrs: Fritsch ? , Sparrow ? , Petty ? , Viney 

Off the list: Hannan, Hunt, OMac, Chandler, Jones, Smith, Bennell

but its decisions like vanders 3yrs, melky's still got another two, nibblers 2 last year, TMac for crying out loud! that the club has managed poorly. Jetta and KK should've fallen off this year too realistically and these are the kinds of decisions that show the FD is a year behind. how Jagner survived as long as he did i'll never understand. and this time next year everyone will be saying Smith has to go, Hannan, Hunt etc when we had the opportunity this year to make those calls. theyre flashy players with limitations that hold them back and hold the club back.

Look at PA's 2018 exits they had so many middling players that they axed who were just getting by year on year without actually starring and they made the calls to cut them all and they've shone, even a 29yo Broadbent last year with 170odd games. a player like that we would allow to just exist on 1yr deals for a couple of years till they retired. or sam gray who played 17 games in his final season but they delist him and actively seek a better option. We cant even chop a player who scrapped their way to 5 games gifted mostly out of lack of decent alternative options! 

Viney's not signing for a 2 year deal. It's either keep him for 4-5 or lose him, probably for a 2nd round pick in compensation. 

We had to give Vanders 3 years or lose him for stuff all to the Swans. Given he was in the best 22 and an important player we made a reasonable choice. Jetta and KK may well retire, we haven't heard anything that says they won't. But payout negotiations take time and depend on list sizes, salary cap etc. KK was a mistake, hence why we have new fitness and medical supervision at the club now. Jetta's deal wasn't, he deserved a long extension.

So Port chopped a whole bunch of bad players, how is that relevant to their current success? It didn't help them build their current best 22 who have all either been on the list for a long time or were picked up with first round picks in the 18 draft. The only player who's come on as an unusual addition is McKenzie and he's exactly the kind of player you're saying to get rid of.

They are also the club that picked up Watts, Trengove and Toumpas.

We've kept too many players for too long but the bigger issues are poor draft/recruiting, inconsistent development and inconsistent team play. It's really hard to rate the performance of the fringe players when the best players in the side don't provide a solid base. 

[trac5665 32]

Carlton's board on bigfooty seems quite confident oliver is going to them this offseason? Anyone heard anything apart from McClure's comment on footy classified the other week?

[TRIGON 4,768]

52 minutes ago, trac5665 said:

Carlton's board on bigfooty seems quite confident oliver is going to them this offseason? Anyone heard anything apart from McClure's comment on footy classified the other week?

Is your first name Sam?

 

[Dr.D 1,771]

how on earth could the footy club possibly think that OMac was better than Frost. Mind boggling stuff. For a team that is slow we trade away our quickest player. real smart

Edited October 5, 2020 by Dr.D

[Turner 1,489]

52 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

how on earth could the footy club possibly think that OMac was better than Frost. Mind boggling stuff. For a team that is slow we trade away our quickest player. real smart

send him to the dogs who knows maybe he'll become a star. definitely an upgrade on that sod gardner

[spirit of norm smith 15,117]

1 hour ago, Dr.D said:

how on earth could the footy club possibly think that OMac was better than Frost. Mind boggling stuff. For a team that is slow we trade away our quickest player. real smart

Dees need a tall and quick defender to play key back and let Lever play as a 3rd intercept defender. I think we had Petty marked for that in 2020 but injury robbed us of his breakout year. ?for HP in 2021

[Demondan75 179]

Just read an article on the AFL website, here's a screenshot. Rival clubs sniffing around Toby Bedford???

[DeeSpencer 24,696]

2 hours ago, Dr.D said:

how on earth could the footy club possibly think that OMac was better than Frost. Mind boggling stuff. For a team that is slow we trade away our quickest player. real smart

Because the speed of a  key defender doesn't have anything to do with the issues you are complaining about which are flanker/outside mid speed.

I'm sure the plan was to have Oscar play a role similar to Jordan Roughead as the Pies or David Astbury at Richmond. The 2 best backlines in the comp. A big defensively sound tall who positions well and does the simple defensive acts. 

While May and Lever - who are both well above average speed for tall defenders took the quicker opponents. 

Our backline did a very good job this year with very limited 5th, 6th, 7th defensive starters for most of the year. In many ways that franks  the decision to move Frost on whilst he had value. Oscar just hasn't been good enough. We don't need a super quick player to replace his role, just someone far more defensively sound.

[Turner 1,489]

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Because the speed of a  key defender doesn't have anything to do with the issues you are complaining about which are flanker/outside mid speed.

I'm sure the plan was to have Oscar play a role similar to Jordan Roughead as the Pies or David Astbury at Richmond. The 2 best backlines in the comp. A big defensively sound tall who positions well and does the simple defensive acts. 

While May and Lever - who are both well above average speed for tall defenders took the quicker opponents. 

Our backline did a very good job this year with very limited 5th, 6th, 7th defensive starters for most of the year. In many ways that franks  the decision to move Frost on whilst he had value. Oscar just hasn't been good enough. We don't need a super quick player to replace his role, just someone far more defensively sound.

mass exodus at the roos - is tarrant gettable? talia at the crows too. before petty takes over

[Turner 1,489]

so Preuss to GWS we think

ANBs only suitors you'd imagine are Adelaide (not sure what profile he fits for them except for SA born)

Hunt could get strong career security at the dons on a back flank and he'd go with my blessing 

Omac would suit Dogs, Cats Hawks and he'd also go with my blessing

and i'd feel so much better about our list after those moves. we can be active aggressive with our own targets and draft picks

secondary thoughts Dons surely in market for Witherden now and Shaw too possibly (i dont want shaw here but he doesnt really have any other options, roos said no)

[Turner 1,489]

guys ive had a brainwave - if jones gets to 300 games before the mid season rookie draft (is this even happening who knows) he can retire, he gets an MCG farewell game and we applaud him and live him. but we also get to turnover the spot on a list and get an extra half a season of development into someone we like who sneaks through due to the circumstances of this years draft.

only problem i see with it is he wont want to quit mid project he'l be determined to get us to finals. but we all know if he goes around again next year (likely) its for that milestone and that alone.

am i right or am i right

[old55 22,777]

On 10/5/2020 at 12:25 PM, Half forward flank said:

You have nt answered my question 

Look it's clear you can't actually back up your claim of greater list management expertise and need to resort to some diversion.  All froth and no substance.

Yes, I haven't answered your question and it's dangerous to try to imagine what "like that" means to a person "like you".

[Half forward flank 1,022]

17 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Look it's clear you can't actually back up your claim of greater list management expertise and need to resort to some diversion.  All froth and no substance.

Yes, I haven't answered your question and it's dangerous to try to imagine what "like that" means to a person "like you".

pretty straight forward question, put it another way.

Are you always rude when you ask questions?

[DeeSpencer 24,696]

4 hours ago, Turner said:

guys ive had a brainwave - if jones gets to 300 games before the mid season rookie draft (is this even happening who knows) he can retire, he gets an MCG farewell game and we applaud him and live him. but we also get to turnover the spot on a list and get an extra half a season of development into someone we like who sneaks through due to the circumstances of this years draft.

only problem i see with it is he wont want to quit mid project he'l be determined to get us to finals. but we all know if he goes around again next year (likely) its for that milestone and that alone.

am i right or am i right

1. Will there be a midseason draft?

2. How do we pay him to be a coach/player under the playing salary cap and then retire him?

3. If Jones has played 6 games by midseason just how stuffed are we?

[Turner 1,489]

23 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

1. Will there be a midseason draft?

2. How do we pay him to be a coach/player under the playing salary cap and then retire him?

3. If Jones has played 6 games by midseason just how stuffed are we?

1. absolutely no clue

2. if he retires he's on the inactives list so he still gets paid but doesnt play/take a list spot

3. well let him play the first 8 and if he's injured theres nothing we coulda done more to get him there

[old55 22,777]

On 10/4/2020 at 6:41 PM, Pollyanna said:

You're the one supposedly with the handle on it. Give me who will and won't make it.

 

On 10/4/2020 at 6:45 PM, Half forward flank said:

Do you speak to your husband like that?

 

14 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

pretty straight forward question, put it another way.

Are you always rude when you ask questions?

Wow, thin skinned. You've dodged the question in 5 posts now.

Does your wife refer to you as "all talk, no action" too?

[Half forward flank 1,022]

14 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

 

 

Wow, thin skinned. You've dodged the question in 5 posts now.

Does your wife refer to you as "all talk, no action" too?

No.

[old55 22,777]

3 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

No.

I'll be moving on to discuss football with @Turner on this topic since you clearly have nothing to offer on the topic.

[old55 22,777]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:05 PM, Turner said:

1yr: Bedford, Hibbo, Hore, Jordon, Spargo, Lockhart, Bradtke, Brown, Nietschke

2yrs: Fritsch ? , Sparrow ? , Petty ? , Viney 

Off the list: Hannan, Hunt, OMac, Chandler, Jones, Smith, Bennell

but its decisions like vanders 3yrs, melky's still got another two, nibblers 2 last year, TMac for crying out loud! that the club has managed poorly. Jetta and KK should've fallen off this year too realistically and these are the kinds of decisions that show the FD is a year behind. how Jagner survived as long as he did i'll never understand. and this time next year everyone will be saying Smith has to go, Hannan, Hunt etc when we had the opportunity this year to make those calls. theyre flashy players with limitations that hold them back and hold the club back.

Look at PA's 2018 exits they had so many middling players that they axed who were just getting by year on year without actually starring and they made the calls to cut them all and they've shone, even a 29yo Broadbent last year with 170odd games. a player like that we would allow to just exist on 1yr deals for a couple of years till they retired. or sam gray who played 17 games in his final season but they delist him and actively seek a better option. We cant even chop a player who scrapped their way to 5 games gifted mostly out of lack of decent alternative options! 

Thanks for the effort to give a detailed answer.

I don't think it's a simple as you make out.

You've just exited Viney to FA with that insulting 2 year contract offer.  Why not just say "let him go to FA".  Or maybe you don't realise that would be the undeniable outcome of that offer?

We just gave 2 years to the other 3 - so where's the problem?

What if any of the 1 year contact players get offered 2 elsewhere - will you match any or let them go?

Every team needs some mature depth - we used 36 players this season.  I think a mature depth player definitely earns his keep at around 6+ games per season.  It will be interesting to see if any of those you've delisting achieve that at MFC or another club.

Finally on past decisions - VDB would be playing for Sydney now if we didn't give him 3 years, Melky had a bad year but he's been a very good player and has a good chance to redeem himself - I'm not writing him off.

ANB, Jetta - 1 year or 2 - it's not the sky falling. It's not a great year to have list vacancies anyway.  I think if we're not making errors like KK then we're being too conservative - there will be mistakes if you take a sufficiently aggressive list management position.

TMac was dominating in 2018 when he got the extension - 2020 Harry Hindsight - please link me to your post at the time that was against this.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Pollyanna

[spirit of norm smith 15,117]

Mitch Hannan ? Did he resign or remains out of contract? He went backwards after an excellent 2018 like a few others.  
 

Seems to be inconsistent and wants to fly for marks against taller teammates and opponents rather than crumb the pack. He could be a very good half forward with skills and pace but seems let down by his footy IQ.  
 

I’d like to see him retained at least for another year but his 2020 form didn’t make his new contract a no-brainer. 

[Devil In Disguise 2,258]

Hunt should be a keeper. His ability to kick goals when we need them is a real asset to the team.