Islam in the West

[dieter 3,325]

34 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'm talking about Islamic adherents in the purest sense.

If someone considers themself a Muslim, but doesn't practice the orthodoxy of the Qur'an then no problem.

You're referencing westernised Muslims, who for the purposes of this discussion I don't consider orthodox Muslims.  There's no ambiguity in Islam.  

The Muslims you're referencing wouldn't attend mosques.  Those that do are not able to befriend the kaffir.  

I've always said that I have no issue with Muslims, because many take out of Islam what they want to in varying degrees.  But I have a massive issue with Islam.  It's insidious and there's NO wriggle room.  It's an all encompassing set of beliefs and laws.  It has complete governance over society.  Study sharia and you'll appreciate Islam and all it holds dear.  It's as much a political ideology as a religion.  

Thankfully, not all Muslims want to live under sharia.  Those that do are a huge concern.

I hear Jacqui Lambie is looking for love. You two could spend post coital hours enumerating the vicissitudes of Sharia law. 

[DEE fence 5,042]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I'm talking about Islamic adherents in the purest sense.

If someone considers themself a Muslim, but doesn't practice the orthodoxy of the Qur'an then no problem.

You're referencing westernised Muslims, who for the purposes of this discussion I don't consider orthodox Muslims.  There's no ambiguity in Islam.  

The Muslims you're referencing wouldn't attend mosques.  Those that do are not able to befriend the kaffir.  

 

I'm sorry but you cannot define what is pure or orthodox when it comes to Islam. One of my many personal muslim friends is Farid Esack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farid_Esack#cite_note-3 who I first met 32 years ago, and tips on its head everything you have said. He is not a saint, just a man doing his best to get along with other men and women in the world. I have been in Sierra Leone where the Muslim cleric gets up and recites the lords prayer before a public meeting (in company with the priest, followed by the local priest reciting the Qur'an. I have been invited into the homes of Afghans, Pakistani, Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Azerbaijan, Malaysian, Indonesian, Bangladeshi, Moroccon, Libyan, Mauritanian, Palestinian, Kenyan, Saudi, Yemeni and Somali (and there are more) muslims (both Sunni and Shi'a) and had meals with families and wives and daughters of people who all attend mosque. These are not 'tame' or westernised muslims, but they are human and they are decent, they educate their daughters, they don't necessarily flout local clothing customs, and some of them are very angry at the ongoing incessant slaughter of civilians by western militaries. But they are not preaching kill the infidel or subvert western states to sharia law. I have also met radicals who would happily have kidnapped me and I have had hate spewed at me by men who are muslim. I firmly believe in a secular Australia, with rule of law and a separation of powers as defined by the Westminster doctrine. In the same way we argue over the southern cross, is it a racist symbol (I say no) Islam is argued over. It would be helpful in a mature debate if we went after the real targets which are the extremist sects and called them by their names and not with the use of Islam as a generic one size fits all label. If we use this generic approach to labelling people, I honestly feel like I should refer to the gun nuts in the US that shoot up schools and kindergartens, blowing holes in innocent children and call them Christians, it has the same level of accuracy.

[dieter 3,325]

19 minutes ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

I'm sorry but you cannot define what is pure or orthodox when it comes to Islam. One of my many personal muslim friends is Farid Esack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farid_Esack#cite_note-3 who I first met 32 years ago, and tips on its head everything you have said. He is not a saint, just a man doing his best to get along with other men and women in the world. I have been in Sierra Leone where the Muslim cleric gets up and recites the lords prayer before a public meeting (in company with the priest, followed by the local priest reciting the Qur'an. I have been invited into the homes of Afghans, Pakistani, Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Azerbaijan, Malaysian, Indonesian, Bangladeshi, Moroccon, Libyan, Mauritanian, Palestinian, Kenyan, Saudi, Yemeni and Somali (and there are more) muslims (both Sunni and Shi'a) and had meals with families and wives and daughters of people who all attend mosque. These are not 'tame' or westernised muslims, but they are human and they are decent, they educate their daughters, they don't necessarily flout local clothing customs, and some of them are very angry at the ongoing incessant slaughter of civilians by western militaries. But they are not preaching kill the infidel or subvert western states to sharia law. I have also met radicals who would happily have kidnapped me and I have had hate spewed at me by men who are muslim. I firmly believe in a secular Australia, with rule of law and a separation of powers as defined by the Westminster doctrine. In the same way we argue over the southern cross, is it a racist symbol (I say no) Islam is argued over. It would be helpful in a mature debate if we went after the real targets which are the extremist sects and called them by their names and not with the use of Islam as a generic one size fits all label. If we use this generic approach to labelling people, I honestly feel like I should refer to the gun nuts in the US that shoot up schools and kindergartens, blowing holes in innocent children and call them Christians, it has the same level of accuracy.

Wow. Truly wonderful stuff. Thank you so much!!!!

[Gator 17,629]

58 minutes ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

I'm sorry but you cannot define what is pure or orthodox when it comes to Islam. One of my many personal muslim friends is Farid Esack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farid_Esack#cite_note-3 who I first met 32 years ago, and tips on its head everything you have said. He is not a saint, just a man doing his best to get along with other men and women in the world. I have been in Sierra Leone where the Muslim cleric gets up and recites the lords prayer before a public meeting (in company with the priest, followed by the local priest reciting the Qur'an. I have been invited into the homes of Afghans, Pakistani, Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Azerbaijan, Malaysian, Indonesian, Bangladeshi, Moroccon, Libyan, Mauritanian, Palestinian, Kenyan, Saudi, Yemeni and Somali (and there are more) muslims (both Sunni and Shi'a) and had meals with families and wives and daughters of people who all attend mosque. These are not 'tame' or westernised muslims, but they are human and they are decent, they educate their daughters, they don't necessarily flout local clothing customs, and some of them are very angry at the ongoing incessant slaughter of civilians by western militaries. But they are not preaching kill the infidel or subvert western states to sharia law. I have also met radicals who would happily have kidnapped me and I have had hate spewed at me by men who are muslim. I firmly believe in a secular Australia, with rule of law and a separation of powers as defined by the Westminster doctrine. In the same way we argue over the southern cross, is it a racist symbol (I say no) Islam is argued over. It would be helpful in a mature debate if we went after the real targets which are the extremist sects and called them by their names and not with the use of Islam as a generic one size fits all label. If we use this generic approach to labelling people, I honestly feel like I should refer to the gun nuts in the US that shoot up schools and kindergartens, blowing holes in innocent children and call them Christians, it has the same level of accuracy.

This is hogwash.  It's just a copy and paste.

Islam is Islam.  You either practice it or you don't.

You clearly have no clue about Islam.

Don't be offended, but you're wasting my time.

[DEE fence 5,042]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

This is hogwash.  It's just a copy and paste.

Islam is Islam.  You either practice it or you don't.

You clearly have no clue about Islam.

Don't be offended, but you're wasting my time.

i am not offended, you are not credible on this subject, i get that you are scared.

[Jara 1,153]

7 hours ago, ProDee said:

This is hogwash.  It's just a copy and paste.

Islam is Islam.  You either practice it or you don't.

You clearly have no clue about Islam.

Don't be offended, but you're wasting my time.

Got it. Thanks Pro. I'll tell the guys at work when I get there. They'll be thrilled to hear that 

1) They're not real Muslims

2) Even if they are, it's not a religion, it's a cult 

 

Now, my question remains.

You say you are such an "expert" on the Muslim faith, and that there is a growing danger of radicalisation. 

What is your strategy for dealing with this problem in Australia? How do we ensure that our community continues to be a relatively harmonious one (which, by any criteria, it is)? How do we keep the communication lines open with the 2% of our compatriots who call themselves Muslim?     

[Jara 1,153]

Oh and by the way, I was disappointed with your saying you doubt that I've got dozens of Muslim friends and colleagues. 

 

You may live in a world where lying is the norm, but I don't. I work in international education in a major Victorian university. Hundreds of employees from a very culturally diverse backgrounds - lots of Muslims - we all get on fine. As a family we've got four or five good Muslim friends, and I do volunteer work with refugees. And also, as I said, I've had hundreds of Muslim students over the years, starting with Bosnians back in the mid-90s. 

[Gator 17,629]

2 hours ago, Jara said:

Oh and by the way, I was disappointed with your saying you doubt that I've got dozens of Muslim friends and colleagues. 

 

You may live in a world where lying is the norm, but I don't. I work in international education in a major Victorian university. Hundreds of employees from a very culturally diverse backgrounds - lots of Muslims - we all get on fine. As a family we've got four or five good Muslim friends, and I do volunteer work with refugees. And also, as I said, I've had hundreds of Muslim students over the years, starting with Bosnians back in the mid-90s. 

I'm shocked that a rabid Lefty works at a University ?  Who'd have thought.

Thanks for fessing up that you have 4-5 Muslim friends and not dozens.  I suspect they're acquaintances and not "break bread and drink wine" type of friends.

As for a strategy to deal with the dangers of Islam within Australia ?  Firstly, don't import anymore.  Don't permit any new mosques to be built.  And monitor the activities of known radicals.  

Islam is completely incompatible with freedom and democracy.  ALL practising Muslims want to live under sharia.  If they don't want to live under sharia they're either ignorant of their own theocracy or pretend Muslims.

Are you familiar with sharia, Jara ?

[hardtack 10,704]

11 hours ago, ProDee said:

This is hogwash.  It's just a copy and paste.

Islam is Islam.  You either practice it or you don't.

You clearly have no clue about Islam.

Don't be offended, but you're wasting my time.

Someone offers up first hand experience and you brush it off as "copy and paste"?  Should we do the same with your posts ProDee; copy and paste from the Xenophobic's Handbook?

[dieter 3,325]

1 minute ago, hardtack said:

Someone offers up first hand experience and you brush it off as "copy and paste"?  Should we do the same with your posts ProDee; copy and paste from the Xenophobic's Handbook?

More like the ftinge lunatic right....

[Gator 17,629]

3 minutes ago, hardtack said:

Someone offers up first hand experience and you brush it off as "copy and paste"?  Should we do the same with your posts ProDee; copy and paste from the Xenophobic's Handbook?

It didn't address a single element of Islam.  It was totally irrelevant.

But, by all means, point out to me the aspects of Islam that were addressed ?

[hardtack 10,704]

4 minutes ago, ProDee said:

It didn't address a single element of Islam.  It was totally irrelevant.

But, by all means, point out to me the aspects of Islam that were addressed ?

He addressed the fact that those practicing Islam in Islamic states are NOT all out to kill the infidels as you would have us believe.  It addressed the fact that they are open to people of non-Islamic faith or background and it acknowledged that there are fundamentalists who would like to do us harm.  It was, unlike what I've seen from you, a balanced view of Islam as practiced in the physical world of Islam. 

As DD suggested, don't conveniently bundle them all into one little compartment to justify your xenophobic tendencies; recognise those who would like to do us harm for what they are... fundamentalists who do not represent all of Islam... just as Fundamentalist Christians do not represent all of Christianity.

[hardtack 10,704]

11 hours ago, ProDee said:

This is hogwash.  It's just a copy and paste.

Islam is Islam.  You either practice it or you don't.

You clearly have no clue about Islam.

Don't be offended, but you're wasting my time.

And further to your response to DaisyDeeciple, I find it interesting in light of your first sentence in the opening of this thread:

"There needs to be a mature conversation not the shutting down of debate."

DD's post was probably the most mature and level headed response in this entire thread, yet what do you attempt to do with your response?

[Gator 17,629]

1 minute ago, hardtack said:

He addressed the fact that those practicing Islam in Islamic states are NOT all out to kill the infidels as you would have us believe.  It addressed the fact that they are open to people of non-Islamic faith or background and it acknowledged that there are fundamentalists who would like to do us harm.  It was, unlike what I've seen from you, a balanced view of Islam as practiced in the physical world of Islam. 

As DD suggested, don't conveniently bundle them all into one little compartment to justify your xenophobic tendencies; recognise those who would like to do us harm for what they are... fundamentalists who do not represent all of Islam... just as Fundamentalist Christians do not represent all of Christianity.

This is disingenuous rubbish.

I've stated clearly, and often, that I have no issue with Muslims.  I have a massive issue with Islam.

Clearly and obviously, not all Muslims practice Islam as it's intended.  However, Islam is unambiguous.  There is no wriggle room.  NONE

I recommend you actually learn something about Islam rather than concentrate on the thoughts and actions of some Muslims.  They are COMPLETELY different issues.

Thankfully, many Muslims are Westernised.  Thankfully, many Muslims don't understand the Qur'an and their own religion.  Thankfully, many who know what's expected of them under Islam don't have the inclination to practice what's expected.  Thankfully, many recognise that Islam needs to be modernised.  Thankfully, more than half of Muslims around the world don't want to indoctrinate the rest of the world.

They're not the ones who concern me.

Like all lessons throughout history, it's not the silent peace loving citizens who present the dangers, but unfortunately, despite their goodwill they don't stop the dangers from happening.

Most Germans weren't blood thirst Nazis.  Most Japanese were peace loving.  And the list of examples goes on.  But atrocities still happened despite their goodwill because the fundamentalists controlled their societies.  We have a very small percentage of Muslims and a very very small percentage of fundamentalists.  I'd like to keep it that way.  Because, as the Muslim population grows so too does the danger to your boy and his future offspring.

[dieter 3,325]

13 minutes ago, ProDee said:

This is disingenuous rubbish.

I've stated clearly, and often, that I have no issue with Muslims.  I have a massive issue with Islam.

Clearly and obviously, not all Muslims practice Islam as it's intended.  However, Islam is unambiguous.  There is no wriggle room.  NONE

I recommend you actually learn something about Islam rather than concentrate on the thoughts and actions of some Muslims.  They are COMPLETELY different issues.

Thankfully, many Muslims are Westernised.  Thankfully, many Muslims don't understand the Qur'an and their own religion.  Thankfully, many who know what's expected of them under Islam don't have the inclination to practice what's expected.  Thankfully, many recognise that Islam needs to be modernised.  Thankfully, more than half of Muslims around the world don't want to indoctrinate the rest of the world.

They're not the ones who concern me.

Like all lessons throughout history, it's not the silent peace loving citizens who present the dangers, but unfortunately, despite their goodwill they don't stop the dangers from happening.

Most Germans weren't blood thirst Nazis.  Most Japanese were peace loving.  And the list of examples goes on.  But atrocities still happened despite their goodwill because the fundamentalists controlled their societies.  We have a very small percentage of Muslims and a very very small percentage of fundamentalists.  I'd like to keep it that way.  Because, as the Muslim population grows so too does the danger to your boy and his future offspring.

You seem to have nothing better to do except post racist porn which the moderators of this site allow you to do. Don't you have anything better to do? Let me guess: you're retired? A student? In gaol? A public servant with access to a computer?

[hardtack 10,704]

37 minutes ago, ProDee said:

This is disingenuous rubbish.

I've stated clearly, and often, that I have no issue with Muslims.  I have a massive issue with Islam.

Clearly and obviously, not all Muslims practice Islam as it's intended.  However, Islam is unambiguous.  There is no wriggle room.  NONE

I recommend you actually learn something about Islam rather than concentrate on the thoughts and actions of some Muslims.  They are COMPLETELY different issues.

Thankfully, many Muslims are Westernised.  Thankfully, many Muslims don't understand the Qur'an and their own religion.  Thankfully, many who know what's expected of them under Islam don't have the inclination to practice what's expected.  Thankfully, many recognise that Islam needs to be modernised.  Thankfully, more than half of Muslims around the world don't want to indoctrinate the rest of the world.

They're not the ones who concern me.

Like all lessons throughout history, it's not the silent peace loving citizens who present the dangers, but unfortunately, despite their goodwill they don't stop the dangers from happening.

Most Germans weren't blood thirst Nazis.  Most Japanese were peace loving.  And the list of examples goes on.  But atrocities still happened despite their goodwill because the fundamentalists controlled their societies.  We have a very small percentage of Muslims and a very very small percentage of fundamentalists.  I'd like to keep it that way.  Because, as the Muslim population grows so too does the danger to your boy and his future offspring.

And again I quote ProDee: "There needs to be a mature conversation not the shutting down of debate."

Way to start a "mature conversation"... and as for that last sentence... refer to the first line of your quoted post.

[Jara 1,153]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I'm shocked that a rabid Lefty works at a University ?  Who'd have thought.

Thanks for fessing up that you have 4-5 Muslim friends and not dozens.  I suspect they're acquaintances and not "break bread and drink wine" type of friends.

As for a strategy to deal with the dangers of Islam within Australia ?  Firstly, don't import anymore.  Don't permit any new mosques to be built.  And monitor the activities of known radicals.  

Islam is completely incompatible with freedom and democracy.  ALL practising Muslims want to live under sharia.  If they don't want to live under sharia they're either ignorant of their own theocracy or pretend Muslims.

Are you familiar with sharia, Jara ?

Pro - you appear to be functionally literate - would you be a good boy and pop back and check what I actually said before you accuse me of "fessing up" - I said I've had dozens of "friends and colleagues" - which is true. Just because you have a problem with cross-cultural communication, don't assume that others do.

 

As for your "strategy" for ensuring smooth relations between Muslims and the wider community: risible.

 

You boast about being some kind of "expert".

 

What a joke. You're an expert at nothing other than sitting in a dark and lonely room dragging hate-speech in off the net and dumping it on the only website liberal enough to give you an outlet: a football supporters' site (to be fair, you do seem pretty knowledgeable about footy). 

 

If you really want to be an "expert" at something, I'd suggest you look up the Dunning-Kruger effect: you could be a poster-boy for it.

 

 

[Grapeviney 9,881]

1 hour ago, dieter said:

You seem to have nothing better to do except post racist porn which the moderators of this site allow you to do. 

This is your final warning. Criticise the moderators / administrators again and you're out of here. 

I'll re-post what Andy wrote in the other thread. 

The General Boards are not moderated like the footy ones. That is mods aren't always available to read these threads. Enter at your own risk and do not bring your fights here over to the footy boards.

I'm very close to banning politics talk here as I don't need the hassle of having to moderate between two sides who are never going to convince each other that their side is right.

[Gator 17,629]

43 minutes ago, hardtack said:

And again I quote ProDee: "There needs to be a mature conversation not the shutting down of debate."

Way to start a "mature conversation"... and as for that last sentence... refer to the first line of your quoted post.

How you don't think there's a correlation of more danger to society with an increased Islamic population is extraordinary. 

I must be imagining those security checks at the MCG.

As the Muslim population increases as a percentage of Australia's overall population there's greater risk to society.

Do you even do Europe ?

[Jara 1,153]

I don't like cutting and posting entire articles, so I'll just give a link.

 

https://theconversation.com/australia-is-in-danger-of-being-swamped-by-muslims-the-numbers-tell-a-different-story-65477

 

This article is pointing out that the Muslim population of Australia is about 2% and growing no faster than other religions. 

 

[Ethan Tremblay 31,168]

17 minutes ago, ProDee said:

How you don't think there's a correlation of more danger to society with an increased Islamic population is extraordinary. 

I must be imagining those security checks at the MCG.

As the Muslim population increases as a percentage of Australia's overall population there's greater risk to society.

Do you even do Europe ?

It’s obvious isn’t it. 

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to comprehend. 

Three killed in Belgium yesterday - the gunmen had recently converted to guess what religion..? 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Ethan Tremblay

[drysdale demon 4,837]

I don't understand why we have to have this type of thread on a footy forum site. As far as I am concerned this is no place for religious or political topics. There are plenty of sites on the internet to discuss these matters if your so inclined.

I realise that i don't have to open the thread but you can't help but see it when looking at the various threads and it annoys the crap out of me.

[Ethan Tremblay 31,168]

11 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

I don't understand why we have to have this type of thread on a footy forum site. As far as I am concerned this is no place for religious or political topics. There are plenty of sites on the internet to discuss these matters if your so inclined.

I realise that i don't have to open the thread but you can't help but see it when looking at the various threads and it annoys the crap out of me.

Sounds like something a leftie would say... 

(Joking) 

[Gator 17,629]

28 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Sounds like something a leftie would say... 

(Joking) 

Triggered !!!

[DaveyDee 421]

2 hours ago, Grapeviney said:

This is your final warning. Criticise the moderators / administrators again and you're out of here. 

I'll re-post what Andy wrote in the other thread. 

 

99% of the reason another MFC forum was closed down was due to threads like these. I'm not religious so they don't offend me. But I cant see the need for them on an AFL site.