Biff..one big difference however. Players honoured Tulips leads. I have  no definitive understanding of why Jacks were ignored ( shunned even) on a regular basis.

Much of what folk are keen to blame Jack for is actually other people's actions. Were/are they brought to task ? 

23 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Haha, no. I can't recall ever having deleted a single post that I felt better for having seen.

People do go a little loopy though. In this thread alone, one of the posters participating in this thread accused me of deleting his posts because I'm not on the same side of the argument as him, when actually I have no idea what post he is talking about, who deleted it or why he would assume it was me when there are half a dozen people it could be. I'm pretty sure I haven't deleted any posts in this thread. 

In reality, every time I log on, this thread alone has added six pages, but for some reason people think we have the time or inclination to read them all ?

Apparently the  value of my many wantonly deleted educational posts has been lost on you Gnasher.

You just can't help some people.

15 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

Basically yes.

 

Ok.  Thanks. 

Couldn't agree less. 

30 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Dees just get 30 and 33 for Watts and 45.

Give 30 to Lions for Schache.

66 to Dockers for Balic.

Go to draft with a couple of picks unless we trade out say Kent or retire Garland.

Might be the best of a poor sitting as such.

Ink it Red

23 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

30 is not a win. If that is the best that can be offered, he should be played at Casey until his brain gets “it”

To be thrown 30 (+) so Jack walks and we still have to pay a % of his salary is not a deal. 

It is a complete farce. 

I do not want even a small amount of my Membership contribution going to another club, who we have to play during the year. 

The ONLY time that is remotely acceptable is when we need to ease salary cap pressure, and even then it is an admission of guilt on list management practises...

Why can't people realise this, he won't "get it" and never has or ever will "get it." He's Jack, the nice boy who plays footy for a hobby, his heart isn't in it.

What you don't pay in your membership, I will upgrade to all the bells n whistles.

Good on the club for showing some balls and making the hard calls, no player is bigger than the club.

Also, re salary cap, I'm fairly certain this was also considered, ie; the most senior player on the most cash who's under performing.

1 minute ago, SFebey said:

Why can't people realise this, he won't "get it" and never has or ever will "get it." He's Jack, the nice boy who plays footy for a hobby, his heart isn't in it.

What you don't pay in your membership, I will upgrade to all the bells n whistles.

Good on the club for showing some balls and making the hard calls, no player is bigger than the club.

Also, re salary cap, I'm fairly certain this was also considered, ie; the most senior player on the most cash who's under performing.

Mahoney has stated this has nothing to do with salary cap

32 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Haha, no. I can't recall ever having deleted a single post that I felt better for having seen.

People do go a little loopy though. In this thread alone, one of the posters participating in this thread accused me of deleting his posts because I'm not on the same side of the argument as him, when actually I have no idea what post he is talking about, who deleted it or why he would assume it was me when there are half a dozen people it could be. I'm pretty sure I haven't deleted any posts in this thread. 

In reality, every time I log on, this thread alone has added six pages, but for some reason people think we have the time or inclination to read them all ?

page 196.

More of my brilliant retorts deleted by someone-you posted just after it.

If you start a coffee table book of fantastic insults I want a huge cut for my work.

This site is nothing without me  and a handful of others.

4 minutes ago, Biffen said:

page 196.

More of my brilliant retorts deleted by someone-you posted just after it.

If you start a coffee table book of fantastic insults I want a huge cut for my work.

This site is nothing without me  and a handful of others.

Because of my vendetta against you Biff, I'm afraid none of your material will be in the book.

(I truly haven't deleted any of your posts in this thread)

Just now, Nasher said:

Because of my vendetta against you Biff, I'm afraid none of your material will be in the book.

I'll have to write a tell all of your sordid sex-life to get even.

Won't take me long .

6 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

Mahoney has stated this has nothing to do with salary cap

I don't believe that for one second. So it's just the most senior player not performing then, thanks.

I sometimes wonder if its the individual that doesn't 'get it' or the masses that don't get 'him'

Jack has had to apply himself to many roles. Some he did ok at, some well and some he manfully surprised at. Some not his forte.

London to a brick Hinkley knows the one best suited to Jack and will play him in it to great effect.

That wont be Jacks fault, it will be his and Port's gain.

We been trying to shove square pegs in round holes at the Dees. Thats Actually OUR fault. None so foolish as those that won't learn, none so blind as those that won't see.

I hope for our club's sake we actually have people who know how to learn. Hope even more we have some that will see.

His two biggest issues are won't buy in and give 100% and lacks consistency. Roosey understood him got the best out of him, Roosey leaves and he's gets on the [censored] for two months following his best season ever, hard to fathom. Just wait till Kochie blows up, back to square one. Unlikely to ever be a Premiership player. Nice bloke but time to go.

Just now, SFebey said:

I don't believe that for one second. So it's just the most senior player not performing then, thanks.

So are you suggesting the club are not being truthful ?

6 minutes ago, Biffen said:

page 196.

More of my brilliant retorts deleted by someone-you posted just after it.

If you start a coffee table book of fantastic insults I want a huge cut for my work.

This site is nothing without me  and a handful of others.

How was the Zoo yesterday Biff? Kids enjoy it? Any Unicorns there?

1 hour ago, Sargent Shultz said:

I could not agree more

Here is a quote in support of your proposition.

Coaches who can outline plays on a blackboard are a dime a dozen. The ones who win get inside their player and motivate. Vince Lombardi

In the player/coach relationship - its the coach who has failed, if they cant motivate the player with talent.

but then again.......

 

 

 

Is Watts the only player on our list who requires motivation? Goodwin did a pretty good job motivating Oliver this year I thought. Jetta too. 

1 minute ago, Go the Biff said:

So are you suggesting the club are not being truthful ?

Do you believe every word from every player, FD, club in the AFL? I don't.

Surely with Watts going to Port we can bring back Toumpas

#BBT

51 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

Do we ‘know’ that anyone else has actually ever enquired towards Jack during his career? I mean it looks like we are giving him up for around pick 30, and even then only one club is keen. That tells you a lot about how the system views him.

I also think he got paid overs by the MFC because we didn’t have anyone else coming up and couldn’t afford to lose players and feel even more like a sinking ship. That’s not true anymore.

As for him having the best intent for the MFC, well that seems to be counter to the reports about his effort and endeavour over last preseason. 

Lets not rewrite history here. He’s a lovely guy, but he’s been paid well over market value for 75% of his career.

Rumours were he was on the trade table a few years back and there were no takers.

11 hours ago, daisycutter said:

unless he was a trumpeter

maybe he has musical fluidity, in which case we shouldn't be discriminatory but inclusive for the sake of diversity

I don’t care that he actually played a trumpet Daisy. To me he will always be the bugler, accuracy be damned.

Since we haven’t had him perform these last few years, perhaps we could throw him in as the steak knives in the Watts deal? I wonder how he would be received at Alberton?

29 minutes ago, Danelska said:

Ahhh Schulzy , that is old school thinking at its finest... coaching courses that are AFL endorsed include - SDT (Deci and Ryan) https://www.learning-theories.com/self-determination-theory-deci-and-ryan.html

tis not about getting external motivation (e.g.: do you hear any club, ever, discussing how their getting up and more motivated for a players 200/300th?)  - all about the intrinsic , and that is the players responsibility, the coach(es) can merely provide the framework.

If, this is all about effort levels from Jack - then its up to him in whatever context to produce it to a level that is mutual agreed upon - I would suspect that Goodwin and co have seen enough to acknowledge that Jack cannot do so in the MFC environment, - of course he may do elsewhere.. 

 

 

Thanks, here is a couple of other old school thinkers (Sir Alex Ferguson from MU and Bill Walsh SF 49'rs) on what make a great coach, from a HBR article

https://hbr.org/2015/02/how-to-coach-according-to-5-great-sports-coaches

And Walsh agrees with Ferguson that the stars aren’t where you need to focus your energy. “Superstars will usually take care of themselves,” said Walsh. “Anybody can coach them.”

“The difference between winning and losing is the bottom 25% of your people,” explained Walsh. “Most coaches can deliver the top 75%. But the last 25% only blossoms in the details, in the orchestration of skills, in the way you prepare.”

The interviews are well worth reading in full, but a few key lessons stand out:

• Be prepared and expect the same of your team.
• Adjust your style to each of your employees’ needs. What works for one person could be detrimental to another. Figure out the best approach for each by watching your employees in action.
• Choose encouragement over criticism; but when you must criticize, give feedback as soon after the event as possible. Be honest but compassionate, then move on.
• Have high expectations. Believe in your team.
• Don’t ignore or sideline underperformers — your team is only as good as your weakest member. Instead, help them improve.
• Make progress tangible. Set clear goals and milestones, and celebrate when you hit them.

1 minute ago, SFebey said:

How was the Zoo yesterday Biff? Kids enjoy it? Any Unicorns there?

Still getting the blood off my clothes.

Never heard kids squeal like that.

42 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

30 is not a win. If that is the best that can be offered, he should be played at Casey until his brain gets “it”

To be thrown 30 (+) so Jack walks and we still have to pay a % of his salary is not a deal. 

It is a complete farce. 

I do not want even a small amount of my Membership contribution going to another club, who we have to play during the year. 

The ONLY time that is remotely acceptable is when we need to ease salary cap pressure, and even then it is an admission of guilt on list management practises...

AFL covers TPP so you don't have to worry about your membership dollars going to waste

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Is Watts the only player on our list who requires motivation? Goodwin did a pretty good job motivating Oliver this year I thought. Jetta too. 

see my last post, explains it all 

36 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

Basically yes. although "motivate" is a very limiting word that suggests a short-term event such as a rousing speech at halftime, rather a full year of developing an individual about life & footy and dealing with all aspects of their make up. Most of the "trade JW" posts seem to point the finger of blame at JW and absolve the coach(s) of any responsibility. I suspect both Watts and Stringer will pop up at another club and emerge of the next few years as great players and both the dogs and dees will regret their decision.

here is some interesting reading.

"2012 represented a step backwards for Martin both on the field and off. On 3 July 2012, Martin and teammate Daniel Connors missed a mandatory training session at the club. According to a statement released by Richmond, the pair had taken prescription sleeping medication the night prior and had overslept. Martin had also been drinking that night and had the medication prescribed. The club said both had failed to uphold team standards and Martin was suspended for two weeks for the incident. Meanwhile, Connors, who was on a final warning under coach Hardwick, was sacked.^[11] After fourth and third place finishes in the club's best-and-fairest the years prior, Martin would only manage 10th spot in 2012"

We all know what happened after - the coaches at Richmond, mostly Hardwick I would guess, clearly decided to take on the challenge and work with Martin "to become the best he can be" and it worked.

The easy, soft option would  have been to trade him

 

Martin was 21 at the time. Watts is 26.

28 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Biff..one big difference however. Players honoured Tulips leads. I have  no definitive understanding of why Jacks were ignored ( shunned even) on a regular basis.

Much of what folk are keen to blame Jack for is actually other people's actions. Were/are they brought to task ? 

Haha this is getting ridiculous now, poor Jack it's not his fault he can't get a touch the other players just won't kick it to him ????