Superstar Month on Fox

[Gator 17,479]

36 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

No answer Dazzle?  I'm going to assume that you're a young guy who probably wasn't born when he played.

 

He still didn't answer your question.

[H_T 3,049]

18 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Fantastic stuff Pro!  Flower would have stood rightfully on the stage with any player to play in the modern era.  As well as his brilliance he was versatile.  Perhaps it was in a game against WA above but in the last quarter and with the game in the balance Victoria had no key position forwards and Flower was moved to CHF where he was opposed to Ross Glendinning.  He won the match for the Vics taking Glendinning apart.

He was a superstar and anyone who doesn't think it didn't see his career.  I saw much of it.  I started going to the footy every week where possible from about 1970 onward and reckon I saw him play on 200 or more occasions.  He is clearly the best player I've seen in red and blue and the only players who come anywhere near having his level of skill and match day influence were a pre knee David Schwarz and the fruit cake who was Allen Jakovich.  As good as players like Neitz, Lyon and Stynes were they didn't hold a candle to Flower.

 

He was a superstar. When stars of the time talk of Robbie nowadays, many brush it aside. But when you hear guys like Dipper, Greig, Tuck, and Doug Hawkins - guys who he played against and with in the Victorian side, talk of Flower, and how they recognise his football prowess, and how good he was, you take note - at least I do. 

Superstar who sits head and shoulders above many, and equally with many greats of the game - including Buckley, Voss and the like. What a footballer. All time favourite of mine. 

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

Just now, ProDee said:

He still didn't answer your question.

Was only little when he just retired. As i said we have a whole DvD chock full of Robbie Flowers best years which is seriously worth the watch. 

As i mentioned he was 2 decades ahead of his time.

[nutbean 8,838]

11 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Fair enough to everyone who said so. Of course i didn't watch evey single game  of his career and im sure many didn't due to lack of coverage on tv. Btw i bought grandad a special Robbie Flower DVD for his birthday of most of highlights from his All Australian years and the 1987. Great package. He was 2 decades ahead of the the game in terms of skill and silkyness. He was a star no doubt.

During the 90s i watched alot of Carey Voss Ablett Buckley and these guys would no doubt take over games and just dominate through pure physical presence and ability to change course of the game. 

This is in no way of mocking R Flower at all just an opinion that i think he was just that one step below being the absolute superstar that those 4 get spoken about a fair bit.

 

 

 

The four you mention were superstars - Robbie played through a period where besides a couple of false dawn under Skilton and the very beginnings of Northey we were exceptionally poor.

Robert Flower also dominated games through his freakish abilities and could change the course of the games. The problem he faced is that it takes more than one talented footballer to turn a game and he had many ordinary footballers around him ( as opposed to the four you mentioned) 

I do wonder if he had played in a great team and importantly successful teams ( Carey and Voss -  premiership players, Buckley and Ablett played in teams that were constantly in the finals) if he would be spoken in the same sentences as those you mentioned. This is rhetorical pondering as he was genuinely as good as anyone who played the game and through no fault of his own, the only things missing from his resume is perennial finals performer/premiership player. ( you only have to look at the first two finals he played - body was breaking down  - he kicked 4 goals and 5 goals. In the preliminary final he did his arm.)

Edited December 22, 2015 by nutbean

[H_T 3,049]

9 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

During the 90s i watched alot of Carey Voss Ablett Buckley and these guys would no doubt take over games and just dominate through pure physical presence and ability to change course of the game. 

This is in no way of mocking R Flower at all just an opinion that i think he was just that one step below being the absolute superstar that those 4 get spoken about a fair bit which probably bit unfair on Robbie because i think the lack of success during that era played a role in that. 

Bit like whats happening to Nathan Jones now.. 

Robbie did these things. And he didn't need brute physical presence. His physical presence in terms of agility, speed and fluent skill set him apart from the rest.

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

1 minute ago, nutbean said:

The four you mention were superstars - Robbie played through a period where besides a couple of false dawn under Skilton and the very beginnings of Northey we were exceptionally poor.

Robert Flower also dominated games through his freakish abilities and could change the course of the games. The problem he faced is that it takes more than one talented footballer to turn a game and he had many ordinary footballers around him ( as opposed to the four you mentioned) 

I do wonder if he had played in a great team and importantly successful teams ( Carey and Voss -  premiership players, Buckley and Ablett played in teams that were constantly in the finals) if he would be spoken in the same sentences as those you mentioned. This is rhetorical pondering as he was genuinely as good as anyone who played the game and through no fault of his own, the only things missing from his resume is perennial finals performer/premiership player. ( you only have to look at the first two finals he played - body was breaking down  - he kicked 4 goals and 5 goals. In the preliminary final he did his arm.)

Exactly. I think the lack of success was   a big part in his name probably not in the same bracket as those guys. 

Personally i think David Schwarz was about to hit superstar status if it wasn't for his knee unfortunately.

 

And now i think we are watching one Jesse Hogan appear before our eyes.

[Gator 17,479]

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

Was only little when he just retired. As i said we have a whole DvD chock full of Robbie Flowers best years which is seriously worth the watch. 

As i mentioned he was 2 decades ahead of his time.

Fair enough.

You can only judge players against other players from their own era.  Flower is named on the wing in every "best of" team of the 1980's and has been named on the wing in some from the 1970's.  In my opinion he was without peer as a wingman in his era.  He was a better footballer than Keith Greig.  Flower kicked 315 goals, Grieg kicked 47.  To this day it annoys me that Flower didn't take Greig's place on the wing in the TOC.  By the way, I'm not just judging them on goals kicked, but overall skill and ability.  You wouldn't see a better mark for their size than Flower.  And no-one sold candy like Flower.

Craig Bradley, Dipper, Hawkins and others rated him the best they played against.

He's not in the same stratosphere as Matthews, Whitten and Carey, but he's definitely worthy of superstar status and sits comfortably alongside anyone the next rung below.  Flower wasn't a key forward, so it was virtually impossible to have that type of impact, and we must remember that the game was played differently in those days.  

It's also worth bearing in mind how hard it is to play in a crap side.  It is FAR more difficult.  Imagine how Flower would be remembered if he was surrounded by quality for the bulk of his career.

Flower and Peter Matera are the two best wingmen I've seen.

[binman 43,816]

No doubt a superstar. A loyal one at that. In the time i have followed the dees (i started regularly going to games by myself in 1977) he has been our only superstar (Schwarz pre knee injury was oh so close).

I really believe he is the most underrated player in my time following football. He wasn't as dynamic (in the crash and bash sense) as a player like Carey or Matthews but was every bit as influential. Funnily enough i see a lot of Flower in Fyfe.

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

1 minute ago, binman said:

No doubt a superstar. A loyal one at that. In the time i have followed the dees (i started regularly going to games by myself in 1977) he has been our only superstar (Schwarz pre knee injury was oh so close).

I really believe he is the most underrated player in my time following football. He wasn't as dynamic (in the crash and bash sense) as a player like Carey or Matthews but was every bit as influential. Funnily enough i see a lot of Flower in Fyfe.

Really? Bit odd i reckon because i think they are two different players apart.

Seen games where flower would dash off a half back, take 3 or 4 bounces weave through a couple of players and slot a goal from outside 50.. yet to see Fyfe do that.

[Sir Why You Little 37,134]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Fair enough to everyone who said so. Of course i didn't watch evey single game  of his career and im sure many didn't due to lack of coverage on tv. Btw i bought grandad a special Robbie Flower DVD for his birthday of most of highlights from his All Australian years and the 1987. Great package. He was 2 decades ahead of the the game in terms of skill and silkyness. He was a star no doubt.

During the 90s i watched alot of Carey Voss Ablett Buckley and these guys would no doubt take over games and just dominate through pure physical presence and ability to change course of the game. 

This is in no way of mocking R Flower at all just an opinion that i think he was just that one step below being the absolute superstar that those 4 get spoken about a fair bit which probably bit unfair on Robbie because i think the lack of success during that era played a role in that. 

Bit like whats happening to Nathan Jones now.. 

 

 

 

 

But you are wrong...

[H_T 3,049]

As PD mentioned the game has changed a bit. But if you want another comparison with Robbie, think a more attacking skillful player than the 2015 Bob Murphy version who had an outsanding year... with a little more flair. 

Note: Flower was better equipped than Murphy on the left foot. Better mark. 

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But you are wrong...

Ok

[daisycutter 29,743]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Fair enough to everyone who said so. Of course i didn't watch evey single game  of his career and im sure many didn't due to lack of coverage on tv. Btw i bought grandad a special Robbie Flower DVD for his birthday of most of highlights from his All Australian years and the 1987. Great package. He was 2 decades ahead of the the game in terms of skill and silkyness. He was a star no doubt.

During the 90s i watched alot of Carey Voss Ablett Buckley and these guys would no doubt take over games and just dominate through pure physical presence and ability to change course of the game. 

This is in no way of mocking R Flower at all just an opinion that i think he was just that one step below being the absolute superstar that those 4 get spoken about a fair bit which probably bit unfair on Robbie because i think the lack of success during that era played a role in that. 

Bit like whats happening to Nathan Jones now.. 

 

 

 

 

buckley in the superstar category....and ahead of flower....you really have lost the plot dazzle.....you should have quit while you were behind

[Slartibartfast 17,634]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Fair enough.

He's not in the same stratosphere as Matthews, Whitten and Carey,

Not really.  Dazzle judged him without seeing him and then said "I've seen enough" to the question of how many games he'd seen him play.  

I can't judge Whitten as I think for me he is the same as Flower is to Dazzle.  I just didn't see him play. In Ted's day there was not the media coverage and for much of his time he played in a poor team who got little if any coverage.  And as a kid I didn't go to Western Oval.

I accept Whitten was a legend, not just a superstar.  Sadly I missed him.  It's sad you missed Flower Dazzle but what is sadder is you dismissed a player of your own club having never seen him, or if you did see him you saw him well past his best.

Time to move on.

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

36 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Not really.  Dazzle judged him without seeing him and then said "I've seen enough" to the question of how many games he'd seen him play.  

I can't judge Whitten as I think for me he is the same as Flower is to Dazzle.  I just didn't see him play. In Ted's day there was not the media coverage and for much of his time he played in a poor team who got little if any coverage.  And as a kid I didn't go to Western Oval.

I accept Whitten was a legend, not just a superstar.  Sadly I missed him.  It's sad you missed Flower Dazzle but what is sadder is you dismissed a player of your own club having never seen him, or if you did see him you saw him well past his best.

Time to move on.

As i mentioned we got a DVD made of Robbie Flower from his best years. From his AA days, BnF to his 1987 year which he turned it on. 

Now i understand there was lack of coverage in football back then compared to now but i honestly don't think its not much difference so say some people who did see him around that time.

There is no harm that i have dismissed him in fact i think thats a silly word to use. I have already stated that this was no intention at all to put Robbie Flower down in anyway but in my personal opinion i just though he was just that one step off from being the absolute superstar of the game in the way the likes of Voss, Carey Ablett are spoken about today.

Edited December 22, 2015 by dazzledavey36

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

30 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

buckley in the superstar category....and ahead of flower....you really have lost the plot dazzle.....you should have quit while you were behind

Ok..

Hated Buckley as a player with pure passion and with the utmost respect to the greag Robbie.. but your being a bit delusional here..

I think you should stop..

[H_T 3,049]

2 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Ok..

Hated Buckley as a player with pure passion and with the utmost respect to the greag Robbie.. but your being a bit delusional here..

I think you should stop..

Having read posts here Dazzle, in all honesty, and what you have or haven't seen of Robbie. I think it's a stretch for you to be asking dc to stop and calling him delusional.

 

[dazzledavey36 55,361]

5 minutes ago, H_T said:

Having read posts here Dazzle, in all honesty, and what you have or haven't seen of Robbie. I think it's a stretch for you to be asking dc to stop and calling him delusional.

 

But its ok for him to say i have lost the plot..?

Right i see..

Fmd..

[nutbean 8,838]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Ok..

Hated Buckley as a player with pure passion and with the utmost respect to the greag Robbie.. but your being a bit delusional here..

I think you should stop..

probably the two he sits behind is Matthews and Carey. I can't comment on Whitten as he was just finished when i started watching.

Bob Murphy has been the current day comparison. I also see a lot of Robbie in Harley Bennell (on field only !). Pure Silk.

I cant remember who the coach was but one of the first real tactics I saw involved RF. When setting up for a kick out from full back after an opposition point he would push everyone to one side of the ground and leave Robbie one out with his opponent on the other wing and the full back would kick out to him and 13 times out of 10 he would outmark him then take off, take a couple of bounces to  kick the ball beautifully into the forward line ( to see the mark spilled , rebound straight back over his head for an opposition goal..sigh...alas...).

I remember Robbie playing CHF against the much taller and heavier Ross Glendenning in a state of origin match and towel him by running him ragged. The only time I remember him getting badly burned was when Barassi thought it a good idea to start him at full back against Malcolm Blight who wasn't taller than Robbie but had 15 kilos on him in weight and got outmuscled in the first three contests.

[Gator 17,479]

Bob Murphy had been a terrific player, but he's 3 rungs below Flower.

Buckley was a great player and certainly accumulated more than Flower, but he was more robotic and lacked Flower's brilliance. 

It's very hard to rate different types from different eras, but if the ball was kicked to Buckley and Flower in a 1 v 1 I'd back Robbie to end up with it 7-8 times out of 10.

[Strapping Young Lad 227]

Robbie was an absolute pure footballer. Voss, Buckley, Carey all great footballers too. But Robbie played in a team that was Sh!te and had very little protection from other top shelf players, and the guy was held in high regard by all of the "superstars" of his era. That being said word's are being devalued too easily nowadays, over hyping everything so that it can be marketed and a profit made from it. Point and case is the collector cards sold to the kiddies, all gold and silver with holographs on them! Jesus the old stimrol cards I got was a crappy photo and some really crappy chewing gum to go with it!

[binman 43,816]

9 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Really? Bit odd i reckon because i think they are two different players apart.

Seen games where flower would dash off a half back, take 3 or 4 bounces weave through a couple of players and slot a goal from outside 50.. yet to see Fyfe do that.

Well he is so good id be surprised if he hadn't done it. But the similarities i see are:

• He's built now but actually Fyfe actually started his career with a very similar build to Robby. If RF played now he's put some muscle on too
• Both are out and out superstars
• Flower read the ball and the game brilliantly and just knew where to be. Fyfe has similar traits
• Both brilliant overhead. Flower was unbelievable in the air, something that often went unnoticed. Brilliant hands and incredible one on one, even aginst much bigger. Fyfe has similar ability  
• Finished his career playing half forward and was a goals kicker, like Fyfe has had to do at Freo and says will have to do more off. But as PD has said was a golas kicker throughout his career. Just knew where the golas were. Like Fyfe
• Flower was a brilliant kick (and handball) from both left and right as is Fyfe
• Robbie had a standard and win lose or draw played to it. Incredibly consistent. Like Fyfe
• Robbie was a talisman and brilliant leader, respected by his teammates and opposition. Like Fyfe
• Robbie could, like ll superstars, turn games through sheer will and talent as Fyfe has done.
• Played through pain as Fyfe has done. In the 87 finals played injured throughout, with a broken thumb i believe and possibly a bung shoulder. Indeed as i recall played through much of his last 3 seasons with problems with his thumb and had to have pain killing injection before and during games
• Both players very courageous
• Robbie could sell candy to a diabetic and Fyfe aint bad either in this regard
• I could go on but that will do

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

On 18/12/2015 at 9:58 AM, Gorgoroth said:

Cotchin is a decent player, but as you stated goes missing badly. They had Reiwoldt earlier as well. Jones also goes missing and previous years Bernie too. Delidio is better than Cotchin.

Someone at Fox footy must like really like Richmond with Rance on today that makes 3 supposedly " super " stars that still can't crack a finals win. Over used term today anyways....should just have been a superstars week, far more realistic, 

At least I know when we get to September our players will actually turn up. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we won a final before Richmond 

[Gorgoroth 13,023]

yeah I saw Rance is the new "superstar"

 

obviously not playing the Melb v Richmond game from this year ?

[Slartibartfast 17,634]

On 22/12/2015 at 6:30 PM, ProDee said:

Bob Murphy had been a terrific player, but he's 3 rungs below Flower.

Buckley was a great player and certainly accumulated more than Flower, but he was more robotic and lacked Flower's brilliance. 

It's very hard to rate different types from different eras, but if the ball was kicked to Buckley and Flower in a 1 v 1 I'd back Robbie to end up with it 7-8 times out of 10.

Agree with all of this.  

The player I've seen that is most like Flower is James Hird (sad that I have to compare Robbie to the narcissist). Murphy is a good comparison for "grace" but he's in a much different (lower) league to Robbie.

On Buckley.  I hated him initially.  Arrogant, self-centred, flashy and soft.  At least that's what I thought.  Then I went to a corporate box one night when Collingwood were playing and I was discussing Buckley with a Pie supporter.  He had a different view.  In the end he said "I'll tell you what.  Lets sit together and we'll count the number of times Buckley wins his own ball".  Easy meat I thought.  Half way through the second quarter we stopped counting and I conceded and I've admired Buckley since.  I particularly like him as a coach.  He calls it like it is, he's the most interesting of a mostly generic group and he's shown Roos up on 360 time and time again which is no mean effort because Roos is good.  I thought he was the best special comments man on TV and when he and Matthews discussed footy I thought they gave an insight you don't get now.

I know it's the done thing to hate Collingwood and it's almost unacceptable to like a Collingwood identity.  But I think Buckley will be an outstanding coach and is a highly intelligent person who is willing to share his insights.  I'm a big fan.