1 hour ago, stuie said:

 

July 27, 2010

"The way that they played the game you would think you are seeing the superpower of the future," Voss said

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-07-27/demons-afls-next-superpower-voss/921380

 

The big difference there is that one quote came from Paul Roos' mouth, one of the best coaches the game has seen in recent years, and the other came from Michael Voss.

22 minutes ago, Abe said:

I don't think what he's suggesting is that we'll magically wait it out, i think what he was suggesting that another 18 months under quality coaching, development and natural progession and this side should be a top 8 side like the Bulldogs, keeping in mind that they finished 7th, i think that should be the expectation.  

I do understand what he means when he uses the Bulldogs as a comparison because as a club they're quite similar to us in being a smaller, less rich club.

That's fine, if you get something out of it then that's great. But in my opinion (which is what these forums are for in the end) it's a waste of time to compare us to another club. They've had more recent finals success, a completely different list, totally different circumstances and a guy in charge who must be pretty close to being rated the best coach in the competition. Reality is, we have a very highly rated guy in charge now, but he is yet to coach a real game.

To say we're 18 months behind them development wise is a useless comment given we're not the 2014 Western Bulldogs but the 2016 Melbourne Demons.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Luther said:

The big difference there is that one quote came from Paul Roos' mouth, one of the best coaches the game has seen in recent years, and the other came from Michael Voss.

My point wasn't to compare Roos and Voss as coaches obviously, it's about the frivolity of predicting the future.

 

1 minute ago, stuie said:

That's fine, if you get something out of it then that's great. But in my opinion (which is what these forums are for in the end) it's a waste of time to compare us to another club. They've had more recent finals success, a completely different list, totally different circumstances and a guy in charge who must be pretty close to being rated the best coach in the competition. Reality is, we have a very highly rated guy in charge now, but he is yet to coach a real game.

To say we're 18 months behind them development wise is a useless comment given we're not the 2014 Western Bulldogs but the 2016 Melbourne Demons.

 

 

as you said, you're more than welcome to your opinion, i just disagree, i reckon comparisons would be things used in the footy department quite often. 

telling Jack Viney to watch tapes of Joel Selwood to me is the same thing, he's a different person, different player, but aspiring to be like a team or player ahead of us would be fairly regular practice. 

it's not saying in 18 months we'll be exactly the same as the bulldogs but given we've built our side the same way (contested ball and now layering attack ) i reckon it's fair for us to compare ourselves to them and aspire to follow that pathway, the same way teams try to copy the Hawks and Swans and so on

2 minutes ago, Abe said:

as you said, you're more than welcome to your opinion, i just disagree, i reckon comparisons would be things used in the footy department quite often. 

telling Jack Viney to watch tapes of Joel Selwood to me is the same thing, he's a different person, different player, but aspiring to be like a team or player ahead of us would be fairly regular practice. 

it's not saying in 18 months we'll be exactly the same as the bulldogs but given we've built our side the same way (contested ball and now layering attack ) i reckon it's fair for us to compare ourselves to them and aspire to follow that pathway, the same way teams try to copy the Hawks and Swans and so on

Telling Jack Viney to learn from Selwood, or our players to learn from the Doggies (which is different to comparing btw) is pretty different to saying we're better than a team we've been compared to 18 months ago. A team that has a better recent history than us it should be said again.

But hey, I guess we can lock in the 2018 Grand Final now yeah?

 

Just now, stuie said:

Telling Jack Viney to learn from Selwood, or our players to learn from the Doggies (which is different to comparing btw) is pretty different to saying we're better than a team we've been compared to 18 months ago. A team that has a better recent history than us it should be said again.

But hey, I guess we can lock in the 2018 Grand Final now yeah?

 

It's making a comparison to a similar player or team in order to take certain lessons for your own development plan, the recent finals history is totally irrelevant it's a direct comparison of them at that time to us now.

under Macca they focused on contest and defense and when Bevo took over they added an attacking layer to their game

under Roos we focused on contest and defense and now Goody is adding the attacking layer to our game. 

ProDee was the one who suggested we were better, so using that argument against me is as irrelevant as their recent finals history to this discussion. 

i am suggesting they're a good comparison to where we are now in terms of the way they've built and developed their players and i think 18 months is a reasonable time frame for us to be finishing around the 7th mark on the ladder as they did this year. 

 

11 minutes ago, Abe said:

It's making a comparison to a similar player or team in order to take certain lessons for your own development plan, the recent finals history is totally irrelevant it's a direct comparison of them at that time to us now.

under Macca they focused on contest and defense and when Bevo took over they added an attacking layer to their game

under Roos we focused on contest and defense and now Goody is adding the attacking layer to our game. 

ProDee was the one who suggested we were better, so using that argument against me is as irrelevant as their recent finals history to this discussion. 

i am suggesting they're a good comparison to where we are now in terms of the way they've built and developed their players and i think 18 months is a reasonable time frame for us to be finishing around the 7th mark on the ladder as they did this year. 

 

You're moving the goal posts now. We weren't talking about game plan we were talking about development.

Let's agree to disagree. I don't see the point in comparing us to a totally different team with totally different circumstances, you do. We differ that's all.

 

1 hour ago, stuie said:

My point wasn't to compare Roos and Voss as coaches obviously, it's about the frivolity of predicting the future.

 

But my point was to allude to the fact that Roos is a far better coach than Voss, not to mention that one of those comments was from inside the club while the other was from outside. Therefore I'd be much more inclined to trust Roos statement.

And I can see for myself that we have the building blocks in place - it always felt a bit precarious back in the Bailey glory days, and then we fell off the edge with 182.

38 minutes ago, Luther said:

But my point was to allude to the fact that Roos is a far better coach than Voss, not to mention that one of those comments was from inside the club while the other was from outside. Therefore I'd be much more inclined to trust Roos statement.

And I can see for myself that we have the building blocks in place - it always felt a bit precarious back in the Bailey glory days, and then we fell off the edge with 182.

Roos is clearly a million times the coach Voss was, doesn't mean he's any better at predicting the future though...

 

Anyway, as for Ben Kennedy, I still think he can be a valuable depth player for us.

The guys a tough competitor and has decent pace. He started the year in very good form but seemed to tire as the year went on with him playing more games this year then in any previous.

I don't think he's ever going to be a star, but a more then handy depth player who can rotate through the midfield and as a small forward to keep the likes of Garlett & Kent honest.

40 minutes ago, AngryAtCasey said:

Anyway, as for Ben Kennedy, I still think he can be a valuable depth player for us.

The guys a tough competitor and has decent pace. He started the year in very good form but seemed to tire as the year went on with him playing more games this year then in any previous.

I don't think he's ever going to be a star, but a more then handy depth player who can rotate through the midfield and as a small forward to keep the likes of Garlett & Kent honest.

I agree with the first sentence AAC.

He played this year in the same way he used to at the Pies. Good for parts of games then next to useless for the next few games.

He was in and out of the side.

Sound familiar?

He is depth at best IMO

5 hours ago, Luther said:

But my point was to allude to the fact that Roos is a far better coach than Voss, not to mention that one of those comments was from inside the club while the other was from outside. Therefore I'd be much more inclined to trust Roos statement.

And I can see for myself that we have the building blocks in place - it always felt a bit precarious back in the Bailey glory days, and then we fell off the edge with 182.

186

2 hours ago, old dee said:

I agree with the first sentence AAC.

He played this year in the same way he used to at the Pies. Good for parts of games then next to useless for the next few games.

He was in and out of the side.

Sound familiar?

He is depth at best IMO

Yes and no...

i believe if a player shows they are capable of good games then that is a level they can reach consistently with the right mindset, dedication and coaching. He is an inconsistent performer in that sometimes he's there to play, other days he barely shows up.

At best, he could be a consistent and valuable contributor... but there are quite a few ifs and maybes in there.

2 hours ago, Diamond said:

186

Thrust a needle into my bubble of ignorant bliss why don't you.

1 hour ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Yes and no...

i believe if a player shows they are capable of good games then that is a level they can reach consistently with the right mindset, dedication and coaching. He is an inconsistent performer in that sometimes he's there to play, other days he barely shows up.

At best, he could be a consistent and valuable contributor... but there are quite a few ifs and maybes in there.

Depends how fit he is when he comes back to preseason...If Ben Ken is serious he has to return super fit and ready

What Roosy said in his parting speech is so important..It is up to the players how far they want to go

I think he's talented, but he needs to find another level if he wants to cement his spot in the AFL team, he was very good early in the year so would need to hold that form consistently to have any chance. 

 

On 9/25/2016 at 8:05 PM, Luther said:

Do you think VFL players can't progress to become AFL players?

Michael Tuck played over 50 reserve games.....

21 hours ago, stuie said:

That's fine, if you get something out of it then that's great. But in my opinion (which is what these forums are for in the end) it's a waste of time to compare us to another club. They've had more recent finals success, a completely different list, totally different circumstances and a guy in charge who must be pretty close to being rated the best coach in the competition. Reality is, we have a very highly rated guy in charge now, but he is yet to coach a real game.

To say we're 18 months behind them development wise is a useless comment given we're not the 2014 Western Bulldogs but the 2016 Melbourne Demons.

 

 

Rarely agree Stuie but spot on. Wait for the reality. Comparisons at this stage are meaningless. Who could have judged Freos far fall in 12 months.

3 hours ago, jackaub said:

Rarely agree Stuie but spot on. Wait for the reality. Comparisons at this stage are meaningless. Who could have judged Freos far fall in 12 months.

It's more to show what can be done, not what will happen.

We have as much innate talent as the Bulldogs with a better balance across the field.  

They don't have a Gawn or Hogan and while they're managing without that type of key position talent they'd love to get their hands on them. 

Our list is evolving very nicely and the Dogs show what is possible with the right development and player buy in.

 

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

It's more to show what can be done, not what will happen.

We have as much innate talent as the Bulldogs with a better balance across the field.  

They don't have a Gawn or Hogan and while they're managing without that type of key position talent they'd love to get their hands on them. 

Our list is evolving very nicely and the Dogs show what is possible with the right development and player buy in, and match day coaching.