I'm sure Brisbane didn't expect the output they've been getting from Stef Martin after the season he'd had with us, (who was a rookie pick or psd pick if I recall correctly).

Leuy was a top 10 pick so he's certainly talented. He's endured some shocking injuries so his form this year is not really a concern. He's stay on the park factor is though.

I think a change of scenery would be perfect for him and I think we should have a crack.

What has he been like on the rare occasions he's been fully fit. i don't ever remember him doing a great deal. I think we all get seduced sometimes by the high pick someone is picked at when in fact they are spuds. Not saying that necessarily applies to him but just wondering.

I'm sure Brisbane didn't expect the output they've been getting from Stef Martin after the season he'd had with us, (who was a rookie pick or psd pick if I recall correctly).

Leuy was a top 10 pick so he's certainly talented. He's endured some shocking injuries so his form this year is not really a concern. He's stay on the park factor is though.

I think a change of scenery would be perfect for him and I think we should have a crack.

Further to this - two pure ruckman in the same team rarely work. Steph Martin is in great form relegating Leuy to limited minutes in the position he plays best - he is not a key forward.

To a certain extent - that is why I prefer that we don't have Gawn and Spencer in the same team. Both can only really ruck. As opposed to Pedo who can pinch hit in the ruck to give the no 1 ruckman a breather and then has value as a marking forward or a marking back.

Further to this - two pure ruckman in the same team rarely work. Steph Martin is in great form relegating Leuy to limited minutes in the position he plays best - he is not a key forward.

To a certain extent - that is why I prefer that we don't have Gawn and Spencer in the same team. Both can only really ruck. As opposed to Pedo who can pinch hit in the ruck to give the no 1 ruckman a breather and then has value as a marking forward or a marking back.

So Leuey would be an improved version of Spencer, with the same problem of having him & Gawn in the team at the same time.

Edited June 12, 201510 yr by Akum

So Leuey would be an improved version of Spencer, with the same problem of having him & Gawn in the team at the same time.

To be fair, Leuenberger has had some very good seasons. I would still be keen on recruiting him, but think his value could be quite modest at the moment due to his run of form and injuries. Would be a good get at a reasonable price for mine.

Plus he has a killer last name!

So Leuey would be an improved version of Spencer, with the same problem of having him & Gawn in the team at the same time.

I think Gawn has really good attributes and big men do take longer to come on. His resume to do date -absolute work in progress and to a large degree, an unknown quantity.

Leuey is probably in the same boat - but i think has shown just a touch more.

I don't see Leuey as an improved Spencer - I see him as genuine competitor for the number one ruck spot - and yes, you cant have both he and Gawn in the same team - both are ruckman - nothing more.

I may be proven wrong on Spencer but he hasn't shown enough to suggest he is going to be in the top echelon of ruckman - Leuey and Gawn could be ( that is a very guarded "could")

I think whenever Gawn has played first ruck he's done really well. His problem is he can't last four quarters, so he needs someone else to ruck for at least about 40% of the game, and playing a field position for the rest. Pedo comes close, but being first ruck for 40% of the game is beyond him. Fitzy might do it, but it's hard to replace a defender who goes into the ruck, and he doesn't match up in defence against many teams. So it's a problem, and maybe that's why we have both Fitz & Pedo in the team, with a big risk of being too top-heavy.

And Spencer & Jamar are not capable of playing a field position while resting. They have to change off the bench.

So to pick Gawn with Spencer only makes sense if Spencer rucks and Gawn plays most of the game in FP, where he's not nearly effective and can be easily nullified. It's the Stef Martin dilemma all over again.

Someone mentioned Leuenberger. He's in the same position at Brisbane, where both he & Stef are much more effective as No.1 ruck & not nearly as good as forwards. So Leuey probably isn't the guy we need either.

We need someone more like David Hale, who can be a dangerous tall forward, but ruck for a lot of the game if he has to. And they are very very hard to find (tho' if that's how King develops, then we're looking good for 2018!!)

good analysis

So we should play Gawn for the rest for the year as first ruck. He can develop his tank and keep learning his craft. At least then we might have a decent 1st ruck

then try to recruit a 2nd ruck/fwd or mould Frost/Pedo. (fitzy back up)

Jamar retires. Speno kept as back up for Gawnski

I think whenever Gawn has played first ruck he's done really well. His problem is he can't last four quarters, so he needs someone else to ruck for at least about 40% of the game, and playing a field position for the rest. Pedo comes close, but being first ruck for 40% of the game is beyond him. Fitzy might do it, but it's hard to replace a defender who goes into the ruck, and he doesn't match up in defence against many teams. So it's a problem, and maybe that's why we have both Fitz & Pedo in the team, with a big risk of being too top-heavy.

And Spencer & Jamar are not capable of playing a field position while resting. They have to change off the bench.

So to pick Gawn with Spencer only makes sense if Spencer rucks and Gawn plays most of the game in FP, where he's not nearly effective and can be easily nullified. It's the Stef Martin dilemma all over again.

Someone mentioned Leuenberger. He's in the same position at Brisbane, where both he & Stef are much more effective as No.1 ruck & not nearly as good as forwards. So Leuey probably isn't the guy we need either.

We need someone more like David Hale, who can be a dangerous tall forward, but ruck for a lot of the game if he has to. And they are very very hard to find (tho' if that's how King develops, then we're looking good for 2018!!)

I agree with your analysis - however - "David Hales" don't grow on trees - we have a very poor man's version in Pedo - Hales is better around the ground as a ruckman. If we could find one I would be ecstatic.

I like Leuey and would take him - but not to play alongside Gawn - but to compete against him for the number one spot - whoever grows and develops better gets the gig.

Gawn is currently being chased by other Afl clubs and not willing to sign a new contract with Mfc arm.

Carlton are working pretty hard to get him.

Gawn is currently being chased by other Afl clubs and not willing to sign a new contract with Mfc arm.

Carlton are working pretty hard to get him.

Having nursed him through 2 knee recos, he'd be a [censored] to leave imo

I think Chris Scott has beaten a lot of coaches to the rucking panacea. A poster once spoke about multi-dimensional-talls a while back. Chris Scott has single-handedly raised the Geelong-rebuild-trough with his innovation and forward thinking with ruckmen.

Blicavs and Stanley were obtained for basically nothing. Scott's use of them has been brilliant. Blicavs on Pendelbury, allowing the 3rd man up to tap away from the tag was a master-stroke. Howe should be one dominant player in our 3rd man up strategy.

Maybe Watts on Blicavs next week; or Bernie.

Maybe the injury to Stanley will mean we don't have to combat both of them.

The ruckman against Geelong doesn't know who or what he is up against at most stoppages.

Having nursed him through 2 knee recos, he'd be a [censored] to leave imo

Totally agree, frustrated at minimal Afl game time, now is his time to shine I guess....

Gawn is currently being chased by other Afl clubs and not willing to sign a new contract with Mfc arm.

Carlton are working pretty hard to get him.

Interesting. If Carlton end up 18th they could take him in the preseason draft with their first pick, so no trade value for us.

I get that he wants more AFL game time.

But he would be going from the 'frying pan to the fire' and spend another 5 years at a bottom of the ladder team.

If that is what he wants so be it. Hopefully, he would do the right thing by us and ask to be traded to Carlton.

His recent AFL games may be to say 'ok, this is what you wanted; he is your chance to show what you can do'.

But it may be to 'showcase' him to other teams that generates trade competition at eos. (eg WB, EFC need a ruckman)

It would really peeve me tho if he went to Carlton and we get zip in return.

Edited June 14, 201510 yr by Lucifer's Hero

wow ....a simple question leads to a conundrum.

Jamar.....can ruck/run all day...but overall is summed up as , very good at tapping ball to feet. Effectiveness.......next to zero I reckon

Spencer...has that wonderful menacing mongrel about him. I like that. Rucking, not so crash hot but second efforts etc are good. Has some tank

Gawn. Best skilled of all, CAN actually ruck to advantage...kinda novel. Can actually kick a ball to a position....doubly novel. Can he run all day ??? ahhhhh the $64 question...answer....wtfk !!

I think the Russian can see the writing... Can Spencil develop more or are we sort of thereabouts with him ? Can Maxxy stay on the paddock ?? I honestly thought Max was all but Gawn before this past weekend.

Who do I like the best , push come to shove ? Max...am I convinced, far from it. Its very Melbourne isnt it !! lol

Gawn has to show some mean machine mongrel, he's currently like a puppy dog with whiskers on his chinny chin chin. needs get some whiskers on his dog, ga!

pencil is a must keep to at the least, provide a high hurdle for those behind him. aggro' is an underrated skill & necessity,,, at the dees supporter base sadly. we Have to Hurt the opposition, at every opportunity.

if we start to value outright aggression more, around this club, it will take on more Mean-ing, for our recruits...

if the question is who has the most potential, then Gawn wins hand down. But he has shown very little so far that he can make it at AFL (aside from potential). He has been in and out of the team over the past 4 years, injuries have not helped but mostly, he has been dropped for performing poorly and not impacting games. I still have massive hopes for him and hope he turns the corner

but to answer the question: we do not have a No 1 ruckman- We only have 2nd and 3rd choice ruckmen. If I had to pick, based on form this year and impact on games I would pick Spencer. These days in footy you need a competitor, and someone strong around the contest giving 2nd and 3rd efforts

Recruitment will be interesting: do we target a talented No 1 ruckman? if so, get worried Speno

Or do we target a fwd/2nd ruck (I know we have Frost but he could be more a defender) and back Gawn and Speno

Talent wise, ruckman do not grow on trees - just look at how the Bombers are coping.

Gawn to mo is on the Robbie Warnock planetary alignment. 2 moons harmlessly revolving around the one planet.

Gawn is currently being chased by other Afl clubs and not willing to sign a new contract with Mfc arm.

Carlton are working pretty hard to get him.

OK, Gawn & Dawes + our 3nd Rnd pick, for Henderson & Yarran/Kreuzer.

Edited June 14, 201510 yr by dee-luded

Accepting all apologies here if they come quickly.

Gawn is great in theory. In reality, he is a heartless lump who can barely run out a half, never jumps or leads, and only has the one trick which is to palm it behind him and hope we get there.

You'd never see Jamar refusing to lead, let alone in the third bloody quarter!

Get Mark in, now.

Max has problems, but he is the best of a bad bunch.

Perhaps not the best timing for this but anyway ...

Get out your crystal balls (shut up BBO! ), and assume that the AFL abolishes the sub rule in 2016, giving us back a 4-man interchange. Presumably this at least provides the option to have 2 recognised rucks rotating off the bench. Who would be our 2 if we did this? Gawn and Jamar? Gawn and Spencer? Or ... ???

Well according to the stats for their careers so far, and keeping in mind that Gawn is the youngest:

Gawn averages:

More Kicks

More Handballs

More Disposals

More Marks

More Behinds

Less Free Kicks against then both Jamar & Spencer per game

Is equal with Jamar for goals per game also/

Jamar & Spencer are equal for hotouts per game.

Spencer averages more tackles per game

Gives away more free kicks and that's it.

So personally I'd be going with Gawn. Play Jamar in Darwin as you need someone who you know will run out the game there and a farewell game in Round 23, but for the other 10 games it's time to get miles into Gawn for me.

LOL

You re comparing ruckmen and you don't mention hitouts or hitouts to advantage

Accepting all apologies here if they come quickly.

Gawn is great in theory. In reality, he is a heartless lump who can barely run out a half, never jumps or leads, and only has the one trick which is to palm it behind him and hope we get there.

You'd never see Jamar refusing to lead, let alone in the third bloody quarter!

Get Mark in, now.

the players that had it hardest at our club when they were kids (rookies), are the ones who succeeded mostly.... all our past talented kids (higher draft picks) mostly failed. because they were all spoiled...

Jamar is one who had it tough, Spencer another. Gawn has had it too easy, for too long. he's forgotten how to fight & scrap for his talent & games.

he's another who was allowed to get soft.

Perhaps not the best timing for this but anyway ...

Get out your crystal balls (shut up BBO! ), and assume that the AFL abolishes the sub rule in 2016, giving us back a 4-man interchange. Presumably this at least provides the option to have 2 recognised rucks rotating off the bench. Who would be our 2 if we did this? Gawn and Jamar? Gawn and Spencer? Or ... ???

I'd go a step further & get rid of the sub & no extra bench players.... just the 3 of them. & a cap on rotations of 20 per quarter.

this will then allow 2 tall rucks to play as in the old days. more space & time for the dinosaurs to get a kick away.

Accepting all apologies here if they come quickly.

Gawn is great in theory. In reality, he is a heartless lump who can barely run out a half, never jumps or leads, and only has the one trick which is to palm it behind him and hope we get there.

You'd never see Jamar refusing to lead, let alone in the third bloody quarter!

Get Mark in, now.

Jamar is finished. All he does is drop the occasional tap he wins at his feet and then is hopeless when the ball hits the deck. He'll retire or be delisted. He should hang the boots up at the end of the season.

Max has problems, but he is the best of a bad bunch.

This is pretty much it. His taps and work around the stoppages is pretty good and, while his tank is not flash, he generally gets to most contests well. Plus his kicking is the best of the 3 although that's not saying much.

Jamar is finished. All he does is drop the occasional tap he wins at his feet and then is hopeless when the ball hits the deck. He'll retire or be delisted. He should hang the boots up at the end of the season.

Jamar averages 30 touches a game this year, and here's a list of the ruckmen he has played against.

• Zac Smith
• Shane Mumford
• Sam Jacobs
• Ivan Maric
• Aaron Sandilands

In almost all of those games, he rucked alone with a very small amount of help from Frost and Dawes.

Yet he ran the games out - no labouring to get to the footy, no balls sailing through his hands, no hesitancy to jump because of his messed up knee.

It is revisionism at its finest to suggest that Jamar is finished, and reminds me of 2010 when Junior Mac was done and Jordie McKenzie/Jordan Gysberts had to take his spot.

Jamar averages 30 touches a game this year, and here's a list of the ruckmen he has played against.

• Zac Smith
• Shane Mumford
• Sam Jacobs
• Ivan Maric
• Aaron Sandilands

In almost all of those games, he rucked alone with a very small amount of help from Frost and Dawes.

Yet he ran the games out - no labouring to get to the footy, no balls sailing through his hands, no hesitancy to jump because of his messed up knee.

It is revisionism at its finest to suggest that Jamar is finished, and reminds me of 2010 when Junior Mac was done and Jordie McKenzie/Jordan Gysberts had to take his spot.

Mate he is finished.

Mate he is finished.

Great, glad we cleared that up