The players that traditionally improve quite a bit are those 21-24 who have enough experience, confidence in themselves, and their body is beginning to let them do what they want.

We don't have too many talents in that age range.

Tyson, Viney, McDonald, and Jetta are running near capacity.

McKenzie, Fitz, Riley, and Michie look to be limited footballers (but they may turn into handy players).

Frost, Newton, Howe and Watts are where we are looking for improvement but the last two have had such incremental improvement that fans can't see it - it's like continental drift...

I am looking forward to Garlett, Lumumba, Frost, and Hogan being thrown into that side, but the talents I am looking at for big improvements are not ready for that to be demanded of them - they are too young.

Tyson - 21 years old, 35 games. An absolute gun who we are yet to see the best off.

Viney - 20 years old, 33 games. Reminds of Jones in early days, no need to barge your way through every contest,

McDonald - 22 years old 60 games holding down a key defensive post in a backline constantly under the pump.

Jetta - 24 years old, 57 games. A breakout year at 24, an automatic selection and plans to work in his aerobic capacity during this off season.

You talk about players improving from ages 21-24 then go on to say that the above mentioned are running near capacity? Nathan Jones turned 26 last year and for mine had his best season. I put this down to the coaching of Roos/Stone, having the likes of Vince, Cross and Tyson helping out but mainly he now starts to think his way through situation rather than barge his way through. Dunn is another senior player that took his game to a new level.

I think Michie has the goods, has shown some glimpses, if he remains injury free this shapes up as a crucial year for him.

As you've mentioned once their body fills out their confidence increases, good coaching/development helps, natural ability is another one, for as hard as Jordie try's he lacks class but the main one for me is "the want". The want to succeed, the want to be the best, the want to put your body on the line when it's your turn. Watts is a perfect example of someone who has endless improvement in front of him but doesn't "want it" enough. He holds his spot for now because of his elite disposal and awareness but in the next year or two could find himself overtaken by players with a skill set on par with his but they also pocess "the want".

Edited January 1, 201510 yr by Al's Demons

Tyson - 21 years old, 35 games. An absolute gun who we are yet to see the best off.

Viney - 20 years old, 33 games. Reminds of Jones in early days, no need to barge your way through every contest,

McDonald - 22 years old 60 games holding down a key defensive post in a backline constantly under the pump.

Jetta - 24 years old, 57 games. A breakout year at 24, an automatic selection and plans to work in his aerobic capacity during this off season.

You talk about players improving from ages 21-24 then go on to say that the above mentioned are running near capacity? Nathan Jones turned 26 last year and for mine had his best season. I put this down to the coaching of Roos/Stone, having the likes of Vince, Cross and Tyson helping out but mainly he now starts to think his way through situation rather than barge his way through. Dunn is another senior player that took his game to a new level.

I think Michie has the goods, has shown some glimpses, if he remains injury free this shapes up as a crucial year for him.

As you've mentioned once their body fills out their confidence increases, good coaching/development helps, natural ability is another one, for as hard as Jordie try's he lacks class but the main one for me is "the want". The want to succeed, the want to be the best, the want to put your body on the line when it's your turn. Watts is a perfect example of someone who has endless improvement in front of him but doesn't "want it" enough. He holds his spot for now because of his elite disposal and awareness but in the next year or two could find himself overtaken by players with a skill set on par with his but they also pocess "the want".

My point about them running near capacity is to say that they are nearing their ceilings and won't bring a massive improvement - they are all playing so well already.

If we take Nathan Jones as an example - he is improving but only marginally, and evidently, not enough to push us up the ladder. He is the benchmark for Tyson and Viney and McDonald to not rest on their laurels and continue to improve their games - I just think they are near to their peak levels right now.

You speak of 'the want' in players, and I don't think we have lacked that in our players - we have lacked the talent to realise that want.

I would love to see wholesale improvement in 2014 but I am not sure there are many avenues for it to come, nor much scope for dealing with injuries - we need our new players to come in seamlessly, all our best players to injury free and in-form, the bulk of the list to regain lost confidnce, and for our kids to come on quickly.

It is a cocktail that rarely happens.

I thought you meant McDonald. My apologies.

Wrong Bailey was set to offer Mcdonald a one year contract only to be overturned by two flogs in Schwab and Connelly.

True story

Wrong Bailey was set to offer Mcdonald a one year contract only to be overturned by two flogs in Schwab and Connelly.

True story

I am so glad they no longer run this club. I hope we never go through something like that again.

Let the skilled footy minds deal with coaching/recruiting. Leave admin to the business minds.

Viney - 20 years old, 33 games. Reminds of Jones in early days, no need to barge your way through every contest,

Are you serious? I remember back then how much everyone enjoyed having a whinge about this bc NJ would occasionally get a holding the ball decision against him. Boo-hoo. I argued at the time that the fact he kept doing was indicative of the instructions his coaches had given him, and that as he gained experience and body mass he would stop getting caught holding it and shed the would-be-tacklers, winning us hardball gets and first use of the pill from stoppages. Of course I was completely right about that and years later I read the same shortsighted criticism of Viney! The ability to stand up under pressure, and burst through a tackle in heavy congestion is just about the no.1 most valuable asset of any footballer IMHO. Think of players like J.Selwood and Mitchell, this is what separates them as players. The only way to become a master at it is to keep practicing it. I would be shattered to learn that anybody would try to coach it out of a kid like Viney, as this skill is what will distinguish him from being an also-ran to a league elite.

Edited January 2, 201510 yr by Curry & Beer

Are you serious? I remember back then how much everyone enjoyed having a whinge about this bc NJ would occasionally get a holding the ball decision against him. Boo-hoo. I argued at the time that the fact he kept doing was indicative of the instructions his coaches had given him, and that as he gained experience and body mass he would stop getting caught holding it and shed the would-be-tacklers, winning us hardball gets and first use of the pill from stoppages. Of course I was completely right about that and years later I read the same shortsighted criticism of Viney! The ability to stand up under pressure, and burst through a tackle in heavy congestion is just about the no.1 most valuable asset of any footballer IMHO. Think of players like J.Selwood and Mitchell, this is what separates them as players. The only way to become a master at it is to keep practicing it. I would be shattered to learn that anybody would try to coach it out of a kid like Viney, as this skill is what will distinguish him from being an also-ran to a league elite.

No I'm not serious I made it up. And yes having the ability to burst through a tackle is a great attribute to have but I would have after being able to kick the footy. What sets J.Selwood and Mitchell, J Kennedy(the penny dropped for Jones this year) and others apart is having the ability to think their way through what's before them. Sometimes trying to burst your way through is the best option but sometimes it's not, sometimes it's a sidestep, sometimes it's the give and get. If you are always relying on brut strength you will quickly get found out and found wanting as used to be the case for Jones. He has become a much smarter footballer and we are a better team for it.

I think Viney will be a gun but as I said I see a lot of a young Nate Jones in him. Viney is always like a bull at a gate. I love the fact he's aggressive and takes the game on, but he just needs to pick his moments.

We will see who's right in a few years.

Edited January 2, 201510 yr by Al's Demons

I wonder how Pendlebury and Fyfe get by?.........

surprise surprise. Someone on DLand gets called out on a stupid comment and instead of just conceding it they try to spin their way around it. The quality of his disposal is NOT something you mentioned in your post and has NOTHING to do with taking on tacklers. You are basically suggesting that he will become a better player if he softens up the way he plays the game which is something I could not possibly agree with less

You're fired up for the NY C+B. Who's the new squeeze?

No I'm not serious I made it up. And yes having the ability to burst through a tackle is a great attribute to have but I would have after being able to kick the footy. What sets J.Selwood and Mitchell, J Kennedy(the penny dropped for Jones this year) and others apart is having the ability to think their way through what's before them. Sometimes trying to burst your way through is the best option but sometimes it's not, sometimes it's a sidestep, sometimes it's the give and get. If you are always relying on brut strength you will quickly get found out and found wanting as used to be the case for Jones. He has become a much smarter footballer and we are a better team for it.

I think Viney will be a gun but as I said I see a lot of a young Nate Jones in him. Viney is always like a bull at a gate. I love the fact he's aggressive and takes the game on, but he just needs to pick his moments.

We will see who's right in a few years.

I don't know about thinking your way through a pack but Selwood, Mitchell and you can add the likes of Kerr and Voss and other elite mids, they have strength but also elusive moves that allow them to nearly always have their hands free for the offload to a free player. My memory of Voss was you just could not stop him getting the ball out. I love Jonesy but he just doesn't quite have that ability to throw in a side step that gives him time to get his hands free, neither does Viney at this stage but he can develop that ability I believe. In Jones defence of course in the past he often had no one to pass off too.

My point about them running near capacity is to say that they are nearing their ceilings and won't bring a massive improvement - they are all playing so well already.

If we take Nathan Jones as an example - he is improving but only marginally, and evidently, not enough to push us up the ladder. He is the benchmark for Tyson and Viney and McDonald to not rest on their laurels and continue to improve their games - I just think they are near to their peak levels right now.

You speak of 'the want' in players, and I don't think we have lacked that in our players - we have lacked the talent to realise that want.

I would love to see wholesale improvement in 2014 but I am not sure there are many avenues for it to come, nor much scope for dealing with injuries - we need our new players to come in seamlessly, all our best players to injury free and in-form, the bulk of the list to regain lost confidnce, and for our kids to come on quickly.

It is a cocktail that rarely happens.

Personally I think Viney had an average season but one I would expect from a 2nd year player, I hope he is a long way from his peak.

Tyson I expect to be in the top 5 mids in the comp so he has a bit more improvement left yet. I think we will see it this year.

Tommy Mc should be aiming at AA honours, if Chip can do it (and I do rate Chip) then so can Tommy.

You're fired up for the NY C+B. Who's the new squeeze?

Dutch hockey player Ellen Hoog. You're welcome.

Dutch hockey player Ellen Hoog. You're welcome.

You're a very lucky man c&b.

surprise surprise. Someone on DLand gets called out on a stupid comment and instead of just conceding it they try to spin their way around it. The quality of his disposal is NOT something you mentioned in your post and has NOTHING to do with taking on tacklers. You are basically suggesting that he will become a better player if he softens up the way he plays the game which is something I could not possibly agree with less

My initial comments were responding to RPFC about players ability to improve. I made reference to Viney reminding me of a young Nate Jones, which he does. I went on to say that there's no need to try and barge you way through every contest. I went on to say that Jones now thinks his way through situations which he does. I'll break it down for you, "thinking your way through a situation" or in this case "footy smarts". The abilty to sum up the situation in a split second at times in heavy traffic and more often than not come out with the right option. Again sometimes the best option is to try and barge your way through but sometimes it's not, sometimes the best option is just a quick forward to clear the congestion and gain some ground, sometimes it's a sidestep or as some refer to it elusive moves which gets you free from would be tacklers and the possibility of free your hands up to off load a hand ball. In your response after you finished banging on about how you called it years ago, please note you called it wrong(again....if you are purely relying on barging your way through at every contest you will quickly get worked out and the opposition will shut you down). You then went on to say that the abilty to break a tackle is the no. 1 asset of any footballer(standing up under pressure and the abilty to break tackle are two different things). Thats when I said that having the abilty to kick is more important than the ability to break a tackle, I would also have footy smarts and love for the contest before abilty to break a tackle. A friend of mine who coached TAC under 16's attends AFL coaching clinics where current and former AFL coaches speak. Hawthorn recruiting manager spoke about Ckarko's directive, "find me kids who can kick the footy and love the contest", but then again what would Clarko know? You called it five years ago.

Where did I suggest players soften up? I said think their way through situations which is completely different and its what Jones did last year making him a more dangerous footballer, not only having the ability to barge through and break a tackle but knowing when it's the right option.

If you don't understand what I've written is there an older brother or sister at home or maybe mum and dad that could sit down and explain it to you?

Edited January 2, 201510 yr by Al's Demons

I don't know about thinking your way through a pack but Selwood, Mitchell and you can add the likes of Kerr and Voss and other elite mids, they have strength but also elusive moves that allow them to nearly always have their hands free for the offload to a free player. My memory of Voss was you just could not stop him getting the ball out. I love Jonesy but he just doesn't quite have that ability to throw in a side step that gives him time to get his hands free, neither does Viney at this stage but he can develop that ability I believe. In Jones defence of course in the past he often had no one to pass off too.

I use the term side step, you use the term elusive moves.

Think your way through a pack/contested situation, a quick example would be Geelong doing 5-6 handballs in rapid succession to stationary teammates/sometimes moving until a loose player is found who can break away from the congestion. They perfected it, their first option wasnt always barge your way through.

you are trying to pretend you have been talking about 'footy smarts' all along, which you obviously haven't.. but I will play along -

you concede that Jones has improved since his younger days in terms of what he does when in possession in heavy traffic - correct?

you claim that this is because he 'thinks about it more' now than he used to- correct?

well how do you think he improved his thinking? It is called experience - it is called getting it wrong a bunch of times over a bunch of years and developing. It is the same reason a good backman knows when to stay with his man or move to cover someone else's - correct?

so, given the above statements, why were you initially critical of the way Viney plays as a 20 year old, as if you expect him to have the maturity of players 5+ years his senior?

feel free at any time to just admit your initial statement was bollocks and you can jump off this ride;)

you are trying to pretend you have been talking about 'footy smarts' all along, which you obviously haven't.. but I will play along -

you concede that Jones has improved since his younger days in terms of what he does when in possession in heavy traffic - correct?

you claim that this is because he 'thinks about it more' now than he used to- correct?

well how do you think he improved his thinking? It is called experience - it is called getting it wrong a bunch of times over a bunch of years and developing. It is the same reason a good backman knows when to stay with his man or move to cover someone else's - correct?

so, given the above statements, why were you initially critical of the way Viney plays as a 20 year old, as if you expect him to have the maturity of players 5+ years his senior?

feel free at any time to just admit your initial statement was bollocks and you can jump off this ride;)

Read post 276(my response to RPFC) in that I mentioned that Jones now thinks his way through situations. Then in post 289 I had to break it down for you so you could keep up, I used the term footy smarts ie thinking your way through situations. So I'm not pretending to do anything. Once again you are wrong, there's a theme emerging here.....can you pick it? Jones was 25 and had played 7 seasons under 4-5 coaches ,I've lost track, leading into last year. Seven seasons of trying and in some cases failing, so what changed? Enter Roos and Stone(again mentioned in post 276) and there is your answer. Stone's resume reads something like worked with the Hawks and the Swans. Yes I was and still am critical of Viney, players get 1 on 1 coaching with their line coaches and spend hours reviewing match footage, learn what works with similar type players and introduce that to your own game. If you think I'm being harsh ask the players if Roos minces his words when critiquing their petformances.

The days of babying players is over.

As the Hood eluded to in his post Jones in the past has had to carry the bulk of the load but now as we grow as a team and the load evens out we need to become smarter. The Hawks killed Sydney in last years GF, not just because they outmuscled them because they outsmarted them. They are a well drilled unit coached by one of the smartest blokes to sit in a coaches box.

Again where did I sugguest players soften up as opposed to pick their moments?

Gary Lyons books Specky Magee would be a great starting point for you to learn the game.

Edited January 3, 201510 yr by Al's Demons

Read post 276(my response to RPFC) in that I mentioned that Jones now thinks his way through situations. Then in post 289 I had to break it down for you so you could keep up, I used the term footy smarts ie thinking your way through situations. So I'm not pretending to do anything. Once again you are wrong, there's a theme emerging here.....can you pick it? Jones was 25 and had played 7 seasons under 4-5 coaches ,I've lost track, leading into last year. Seven seasons of trying and in some cases failing, so what changed? Enter Roos and Stone(again mentioned in post 276) and there is your answer. Stone's resume reads something like worked with the Hawks and the Swans. Yes I was and still am critical of Viney, players get 1 on 1 coaching with their line coaches and spend hours reviewing match footage, learn what works with similar type players and introduce that to your own game. If you think I'm being harsh ask the players if Roos minces his words when critiquing their petformances.

The days of babying players is over.

As the Hood eluded to in his post Jones in the past has had to carry the bulk of the load but now as we grow as a team and the load evens out we need to become smarter. The Hawks killed Sydney in last years GF, not just because they outmuscled them because they outsmarted them. They are a well drilled unit coached by one of the smartest blokes to sit in a coaches box.

Again where did I sugguest players soften up as opposed to pick their moments?

Gary Lyons books Specky Magee would be a great starting point for you to learn the game.

no need to get your frilly little pink panties in a bunch, princess :D

what you are saying is all well and good but you can't make it part of your original reply unless you know a crazy old scientist with a De Lorean :D

Would not be surprised to see Nev Jetta take another step up and run through the middle.

New Guys ?

"The Hulk" will not be as impressive as we think.

I expect about 30 goals from him and Dawes each

Garlett maybe 30,Howe 20,Watts 40 and about 100 to 150 between the mids.

The ruck division is supposedly going as well as it ever has so with the improvement of JKH.Salem,Viney,

some new pace, some skill execution ,we could turn it around very quickly.

I'm usually over optomistic and this year is no exception.

9th or 10th.

8th if the stars align.

Anywhooo..... I see us making top 4 next yearwith 3 players kicking 50+ sausage rolls and Dom winning the Charlie. Roosy for PM in 2016 as well...

Would not be surprised to see Nev Jetta take another step up and run through the middle.

New Guys ?

"The Hulk" will not be as impressive as we think.

I expect about 30 goals from him and Dawes each

Garlett maybe 30,Howe 20,Watts 40 and about 100 to 150 between the mids.

The ruck division is supposedly going as well as it ever has so with the improvement of JKH.Salem,Viney,

some new pace, some skill execution ,we could turn it around very quickly.

I'm usually over optomistic and this year is no exception.

9th or 10th.

8th if the stars align.

you've forecasted 90 goals for Dawes/Howe/Watts vs their 2014 output of 38. Then you've added 60 from Hogan/Garlett. That's an extra 5 goals a week in total, I hope you're right, because we are only 4 behind the AFL average with a defense that is on par

Would not be surprised to see Nev Jetta take another step up and run through the middle.

New Guys ?

"The Hulk" will not be as impressive as we think.

I expect about 30 goals from him and Dawes each

Garlett maybe 30,Howe 20,Watts 40 and about 100 to 150 between the mids.

The ruck division is supposedly going as well as it ever has so with the improvement of JKH.Salem,Viney,

some new pace, some skill execution ,we could turn it around very quickly.

I'm usually over optomistic and this year is no exception.

9th or 10th.

8th if the stars align.

Christ Biff ... get off the grass.

Christ Biff ... get off the grass.

Ok.will refrain from making football related discussion from now on.

I'm only right every 10 years or so.

I use the term side step, you use the term elusive moves.

Think your way through a pack/contested situation, a quick example would be Geelong doing 5-6 handballs in rapid succession to stationary teammates/sometimes moving until a loose player is found who can break away from the congestion. They perfected it, their first option wasnt always barge your way through.

I agree we have really struggled with a centre bounce setup or strategy if you like over the past 10 years. The Cats and the Hawks not only have elite players in the middle but also a setup and set play as you elude to. The Hawks setup will have an insider like Sewell get first touch out to Mitchell who will have it for a nano second before it is passed off to Burgoyne, Hodge, Lewis etc, etc. they have a set up and set plays. I note Ratten is one of their coaches and the last time we had any idea of midfield play was when he was at MFC.

The norm for MFC is to have nothing more at the centre bounce than see ball, get ball and kick.? Maybe we started to see some semblance of a midfield setup last year. I think Bailey tried to emulate Geelong in 2010/11 but didn't have the cattle or the strategic knowledge and help to make it work. In 2010 with Maloney, Junior, Jones, and help from Bruce, Green, Scully, Trengove and Sylvia and Jamar dominating the ruck we managed to rag doll some interstate sides and hold our own against the better sides in the midfield. After that we turned to Shyte in the middle,no system that I could see, just barge through, pick it and kick if possible.

Can we poach Ratten back? I note our midfield coach is Ben Mathews. is he any good because as you say it is not just about elite players, it is about a stoppage setup and strategy! Maybe with our new talent it starts to happen. Fingers crossed because if we start to dominate clearances everything else will fall into place. Suddenly forwards will play better because the ball is being delivered better and more often.

We r not very good, we have castoffs in vince, cross, newton et al and some young talent which will take 2 to 3 years to show value, viney is gutsy but undersized imo, Hogan too young to dominate yet, jury still out on that little Italian, can't remember name too many grandma's slippers, frost no replacement for frawley as yet, all in all we will struggle in 2015 my friends