Demons could get priority pick

[The Chazz 4,077]

This is brought up by commentators, fans, and even some Landers - if I had time I would do some quote pulling - they are using the argument that because we are incompetent we shouldn't receive the compensatory devices that incompetent teams receive.

It is a ridiculous closed cycle of an argument and it should be explored and dismissed by Jackson to whomever if (or when) the time comes to make our case for the rules of the game to be properly applied.

I fully appreciate (and hear) what you are saying.

Regardless of the "rules" that are/were in place, the AFL had no option in giving us assistance last year. It was the year we were found "not guilty" of losing games for priority picks, then a matter of weeks after that decision, we are asking for a priority pick? To further complicate our case, we had an AFL endorsed CEO appointed, who went to the AFL, cap in hand asking for a financial bail out package, which we were successful in obtaining. While I, and most supporters are no doubt disappointed we didn't receive a PP last year, I can understand some of the things that we had working against us. I can picture Vlad rejecting our claim, mainly because of the vibe of the thing!

This year is a totally different scenario. We all expected some sign of improvement, which is barely visible (as of Round 3). I hold little hope that it'll be a number 1 pick, which will no doubt disappoint some on here. But, when there is no clear understanding of the formula used, and more to the point, the definition of any outcome based on what the formula results are, then it'll always be a grey area and open to discussion/disagreement/argument!

[The Chazz 4,077]

We could trade a high pick for Patton who GWS can on trade for Fyfe.

Then trade for Danger if Adelaide get iffy. Patton and Danger would be great gets.

Now your throwing personal attacks because I added some examples of what picks could get us?

Grow up mate.

Olisik, with "examples" like the one above, how can you blame me?

At best, we could possibly get pick 1 & 2. You want to trade one of those picks for Patton, and the other for Danger?

That IS an example of a trade, but so is me saying trade our pick 68 for Ablett. What a "get" that would be.

[olisik 4,060]

Olisik, with "examples" like the one above, how can you blame me?

At best, we could possibly get pick 1 & 2. You want to trade one of those picks for Patton, and the other for Danger?

That IS an example of a trade, but so is me saying trade our pick 68 for Ablett. What a "get" that would be.

Settle down buddy. Your getting a tad overworked.

Patton for pick 1 and Danger for pick 2 is different to Ablett for pick 68.

[Machsy 2,858]

Settle down buddy. Your getting a tad overworked.

Patton for pick 1 and Danger for pick 2 is different to Ablett for pick 68.

Pinching steve's tactic?

It may work for simpletons, but most can see that he's just giving an honest appraisal of your posting habits...

[olisik 4,060]

Pinching steve's tactic?

It may work for simpletons, but most can see that he's just giving an honest appraisal of your posting habits...

No idea who Steve is.

Personal attacks as an appraisal is not called for and very immature, as is an appraisal in general. Unless he has decided he wants to be in the forum posting police.

We are here to discuss Priority picks, not banter with fellow supporters.

That said it would be good to get these picks as we need them. We will not get out of the hole we are in without them

[wretched.sylph 164]

We lack "champions" — genuine game-breakers.

We don't have a Hodge or Pendlebury or Ablett or Roughead or Riewoldt. These players were all PPs (IIRC).

And it's not possible to trade for a champion (certainly not from our position). Any PP that we have to trade would be of very little use.

We need 3 or 4 players we can build around. At the moment we have, potentially, 1 or 2 (Watts + Hogan).

[Ted Lasso 19,332]

We lack "champions" — genuine game-breakers.

We don't have a Hodge or Pendlebury or Ablett or Roughead or Riewoldt. These players were all PPs (IIRC).

And it's not possible to trade for a champion (certainly not from our position). Any PP that we have to trade would be of very little use.

We need 3 or 4 players we can build around. At the moment we have, potentially, 1 or 2 (Watts + Hogan).

when you have as many top 5 picks as us and haven't got a superstar you know something is going wrong.

[titan_uranus 24,978]

Makes no sense to me. Who do you support?

It's sad we have to have this argument again so early 'P-man'. I think we should just read our posts from last year rather than repeat our arguments. We didn't get one then and it looks like we are not in a great position.

Let me just say this, Hawthorn and Collingwood's premierships were built on the back of PP's, Geelong's on previous Father/Son rules. They got a leg up.

Rubbish. Hawthorn, Collingwood and Geelong's (and Sydney's) premierships were built on the back of hard work, strong culture, good coaching, leadership, and talent from the entire list. They most certainly did not come from a couple of talented players drafted with PPs or from Father/Son kids.

Obviously they helped, but your statement distorts reality wildly and ignores the multitude of other important factors.

TU, give us a break. I like your work, but what else have we had to look forward to, in what has been the leanest period in AFL history? I don't lament MFC supporters looking towards the draft. Particularly, when our season is usually shot by Round 2. I'm not so sure 30,000 supporters would have stuck fat across 7 years of rubbish at many of the other AFL clubs. We saw what two lean years did to Essendon. We saw what three lean years did to Carlton. We're a remarkably resilient supporter base and whatever we turn to for solace is completely understandable.

I did word it a bit strongly when I said I was sick of people talking about it, but my general point is that I am over Melbourne supporters continually focusing their attention on the draft and considering it the be-all-and-end-all of any potential improvement.

It's obviously important, but it's not going to get us there on it's own. If it was, we'd be there by now.

I disagree about having to wait 3 years for improvement. Early picks can have good first seasons. Daniel Rich. Oliver Wines David Swallow Dustin Martin. Mature bodies.

I do not disagree with the principle however that a PP should be traded.

It's definitely true that new draftees can have good first years (and second, and third). But I don't think you can go from that to saying the entire list improves simply because of one player.

Vince and Tyson were obtained by trading high draft picks. Hence without the picks we have no currency to bring in Talent.

We will not become a good team without quality draft picks.

This is the kind of warped logic that is not useful to us at all.

We will not become a good team until we have 22 decent players, plus more for depth. Draft picks, whether used in the draft or traded, don't get us those 22. Furthermore, as we've seen in the past, bringing in talent is for nought if you can't develop them, if there is an insipid culture which doesn't help retain them, or if you can't provide them with a future.

Ergo, whilst we may well become a good team without quality draft picks, we can't become a good team without internal change.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,195]

We will not become a good team until we have 22 decent players, plus more for depth. Draft picks, whether used in the draft or traded, don't get us those 22.

Where do we get them from then? No one is going to give them to us for the hell of it. I appreciate what you're saying about the culture/development etc but we still need talented players to work within that culture. No matter how great your culture is it's not going to turn Pedersen into Riewoldt or Terlich into Hodge.

[rjay 24,888]

Rubbish. Hawthorn, Collingwood and Geelong's (and Sydney's) premierships were built on the back of hard work, strong culture, good coaching, leadership, and talent from the entire list. They most certainly did not come from a couple of talented players drafted with PPs or from Father/Son kids.

Obviously they helped, but your statement distorts reality wildly and ignores the multitude of other important factors.

I did word it a bit strongly when I said I was sick of people talking about it, but my general point is that I am over Melbourne supporters continually focusing their attention on the draft and considering it the be-all-and-end-all of any potential improvement.

It's obviously important, but it's not going to get us there on it's own. If it was, we'd be there by now.

It's definitely true that new draftees can have good first years (and second, and third). But I don't think you can go from that to saying the entire list improves simply because of one player.

This is the kind of warped logic that is not useful to us at all.

We will not become a good team until we have 22 decent players, plus more for depth. Draft picks, whether used in the draft or traded, don't get us those 22. Furthermore, as we've seen in the past, bringing in talent is for nought if you can't develop them, if there is an insipid culture which doesn't help retain them, or if you can't provide them with a future.

Ergo, whilst we may well become a good team without quality draft picks, we can't become a good team without internal change.

Talking through your titan again mate. No PP's or father/son...no premiership for those clubs. For Sydney no cap allowance, no flag.

Look I understand it is more that just that but those clubs were able to take advantage of the situation that prevailed at the time. Roughy/Buddy, Pendles/Thomas were really important acquisitions in the premiership race for their clubs. Scarlett, Hawkins, Ablett for Geelong key players in that clubs success.

Now those clubs are on top the climate has changed with free agency and player movement and again those clubs are taking advantage.

...and how else do you get players apart from draft picks or trading. If you have another method please let us know.

[titan_uranus 24,978]

Where do we get them from then? No one is going to give them to us for the hell of it. I appreciate what you're saying about the culture/development etc but we still need talented players to work within that culture. No matter how great your culture is it's not going to turn Pedersen into Riewoldt or Terlich into Hodge.

I'm not saying we shouldn't draft at all, obviously.

What I'm saying is that I don't subscribe to the view that if we don't get a stack of high draft picks that we can't improve.

There is a lot we need to change within the cub that will assist in pushing us up the ladder. Improvement from within may see players like Viney, Toumpas, Trengove, Watts, Blease, Salem, Gawn, McDonald become those A-grade players that you think we will get with high quality draft picks.

Talking through your titan again mate. No PP's or father/son...no premiership for those clubs. For Sydney no cap allowance, no flag.

Look I understand it is more that just that but those clubs were able to take advantage of the situation that prevailed at the time. Roughy/Buddy, Pendles/Thomas were really important acquisitions in the premiership race for their clubs. Scarlett, Hawkins, Ablett for Geelong key players in that clubs success.

Now those clubs are on top the climate has changed with free agency and player movement and again those clubs are taking advantage.

...and how else do you get players apart from draft picks or trading. If you have another method please let us know.

Take as many PPs or father/sons as you want, but without a strong culture, leadership, good coaching, and everything else I mentioned, also no premiership.

It is not all about drafting. Obviously pick 1 is better than pick 100, or even pick 20. But the point is, I do not believe that the correct approach to fixing this club is to rely on more drafting. It may be helpful, maybe very helpful, but without that internal change, it won't be sufficient. And I'd rather see us focusing on those internal things than once again sitting back, waiting until November, and hoping that the kids we take will change this club.

[Machsy 2,858]

A lot of it is about driving standards to get better.

There's a lot of work to do, in the 1s and the 2s.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,195]

I'm not saying we shouldn't draft at all, obviously.

What I'm saying is that I don't subscribe to the view that if we don't get a stack of high draft picks that we can't improve.

There is a lot we need to change within the cub that will assist in pushing us up the ladder. Improvement from within may see players like Viney, Toumpas, Trengove, Watts, Blease, Salem, Gawn, McDonald become those A-grade players that you think we will get with high quality draft picks.

Take as many PPs or father/sons as you want, but without a strong culture, leadership, good coaching, and everything else I mentioned, also no premiership.

It is not all about drafting. Obviously pick 1 is better than pick 100, or even pick 20. But the point is, I do not believe that the correct approach to fixing this club is to rely on more drafting. It may be helpful, maybe very helpful, but without that internal change, it won't be sufficient. And I'd rather see us focusing on those internal things than once again sitting back, waiting until November, and hoping that the kids we take will change this club.

I agree that you need a good culture/standards etc - but our list is in such a diabolical state at the moment that we really do need additional early picks to be competitive in the short term. If that means using the picks as currency to trade out for top line players or guys wth time in the system like Tyson then so be it, but we need some currency; it won't come from our current list and we can't really afford another couple of years being uncompetitive while we turn the list over.

[rjay 24,888]

I'm not saying we shouldn't draft at all, obviously.

What I'm saying is that I don't subscribe to the view that if we don't get a stack of high draft picks that we can't improve.

There is a lot we need to change within the cub that will assist in pushing us up the ladder. Improvement from within may see players like Viney, Toumpas, Trengove, Watts, Blease, Salem, Gawn, McDonald become those A-grade players that you think we will get with high quality draft picks.

Take as many PPs or father/sons as you want, but without a strong culture, leadership, good coaching, and everything else I mentioned, also no premiership.

It is not all about drafting. Obviously pick 1 is better than pick 100, or even pick 20. But the point is, I do not believe that the correct approach to fixing this club is to rely on more drafting. It may be helpful, maybe very helpful, but without that internal change, it won't be sufficient. And I'd rather see us focusing on those internal things than once again sitting back, waiting until November, and hoping that the kids we take will change this club.

Add picking the right players and I completely agree with you. As a club we pretty much prove the point here, but a well run club having a choice of top end talent will set itself up for the future. I hope we are in this position now, an extra top end choice will help.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Melbourne need to go to rehab for draft pick addiction... maybe a few posters on here could go too and we might get a package deal

actually they need ReHab for Bulimia draftosis.

we're withering on the vine.

[Adam The God 30,130]

I'm not saying we shouldn't draft at all, obviously.

What I'm saying is that I don't subscribe to the view that if we don't get a stack of high draft picks that we can't improve.

There is a lot we need to change within the cub that will assist in pushing us up the ladder. Improvement from within may see players like Viney, Toumpas, Trengove, Watts, Blease, Salem, Gawn, McDonald become those A-grade players that you think we will get with high quality draft picks.

Except, you'll note all those guys (with the exception of Gawn and McDonald) were high draft picks. I agree that we need to change club culture. I don't think rjay is debating that though.

Take as many PPs or father/sons as you want, but without a strong culture, leadership, good coaching, and everything else I mentioned, also no premiership.

It is not all about drafting. Obviously pick 1 is better than pick 100, or even pick 20. But the point is, I do not believe that the correct approach to fixing this club is to rely on more drafting. It may be helpful, maybe very helpful, but without that internal change, it won't be sufficient. And I'd rather see us focusing on those internal things than once again sitting back, waiting until November, and hoping that the kids we take will change this club.

I agree with this. There is also the element of luck in all of this, which I'm sure we all acknowledge.

--

I think in order to fast track some of this though, IMO, we'll need to receive PPs, as we require assets to trade and/or recruit. Personally, I think if we draft well over the next two to three years and we start to lay the foundation for cultural change, our list's current core can still achieve success. That is, providing they can overcome the psychological battering they've taken.

Edited April 10, 2014 by AdamFarr

[Deez 298]

Now your throwing personal attacks because I added some examples of what picks could get us?

Grow up mate.

I agree, go to bed billy. We don't read this thread to scroll through pages of your shite comments directed at other users.

[Moonshadow 17,675]

I agree, go to bed billy. We don't read this thread to scroll through pages of your shite comments directed at other users.

Says the poster directing similar comments to another.

[olisik 4,060]

A lot of it is about driving standards to get better.

There's a lot of work to do, in the 1s and the 2s.

Well lets hope we do due dilligence and interview the touted #3 even if we only have pick 1 and 2

[Machsy 2,858]

SMH.

Really?

Ignoring that its completely off topic to my post, are you really going back to the reporter Dustin Martin non-interview?

I'd say that has proved to have been a sound decision.

Not only is he vastly overrated, but he'd have surely gone well off the rails if he'd been at MFC the last 5 years.

We'd be cutting our losses and wishing we'd picked Trengove.

[Ted Lasso 19,332]

We need a genuine superstar, Cross and jones are good but we need a gary ablett type player like other sides have that the young players can watch train and pick up what's required to become a genuine quality AFL player.

[rjay 24,888]

We need a genuine superstar, Cross and jones are good but we need a gary ablett type player like other sides have that the young players can watch train and pick up what's required to become a genuine quality AFL player.

Only one side has a Gary Ablett type...one of the all time greats.

I get your point re training and I think Cross is a really good pick up in this regard. He gets the most from himself and leaves nothing on the track during training or on game day. Always gives 100%.

It would be nice to have a superstar to go and watch though.

[Ted Lasso 19,332]

Only one side has a Gary Ablett type...one of the all time greats.

I get your point re training and I think Cross is a really good pick up in this regard. He gets the most from himself and leaves nothing on the track during training or on game day. Always gives 100%.

It would be nice to have a superstar to go and watch though.

Very true, probably unfair to compare Ablett to any of the current players, which is scary in itself, personally think he is going to go down as the best player of all time by the time he retires, maybe 3-4 brownlows, 350-400 games, few premierships

really puts our side into perspective when you consider our better players over the last 10 years would be stretching to be a quarter of as good as the bloke.

[The Chazz 4,077]

We need a genuine superstar, Cross and jones are good but we need a gary ablett type player like other sides have that the young players can watch train and pick up what's required to become a genuine quality AFL player.

What we really need, Sassy, is having multiple players considered in the Top 50 at the start of the year, then that number increasing at the end of the year.

We will barely make finals, let alone win premierships, when our B&F winner isn't considered in the top 30 of the compeition.

[Ted Lasso 19,332]

What we really need, Sassy, is having multiple players considered in the Top 50 at the start of the year, then that number increasing at the end of the year.

We will barely make finals, let alone win premierships, when our B&F winner isn't considered in the top 30 of the compeition.

I'm not really interested in the AFL ratings of players, i reckon we have 10-12 AFL standard players and a few strong VFL performers who plug gaps, not surprising we go how we do, Roos will have a massive cleanout at the end of the year and get some better types in