Interestingly - If you had a blueprint of what Bailey identified as wrong with our club/playing list/culture and what he wanted to implement as opposed to what Neeld identified as problematic with our club and what he wanted to do and how he wanted to change things, I would say Neeld was streets ahead in indentifying where were failing. As we have painfully found out, knowing what the problems are and having the skillset to fix the problems are two entirely different things.

Very good post Nutbean.

The concern for me will be when the changeover actually happens. For the best part of three decades our players have run the club. Roos will run the place over the next 3 years, but it's the next era after that where I am concerned.

Can Roos change in three years what has been happening for three decades? If he signed a 5 year deal I'd be feeling more confident of the longevity of the culture change.

Neeld's captaincy master stroke. Keeping the two captains on the bench for the return to Geelong after 186 so they will not be molested and traumatised by those Geelong brutes. WTF was he doing? Exposed his lack of confidence they were up to the job?

I have a different take on Neeld. His tenure was doomed from the start because he had to work under Schwab. I believe no matter who coached us with Schwab in control would have failed. The club disintegration was complete after Bailey was sacked and Schwab remained. The burning of the senior players for political reasons was fatal and irreversable.

I really don't see why Dawes name gets thrown up as a leadership candidate. The only thing that ever really lifted him above anyone else is that he knew what success looked like coming from a dominate club of the competition. But he was not held in a leadership regard there either.

When has he ever taken the game on and said "Come on boys, follow me!"?

The closest thing we have to that has to be Nathan Jones. He is still not the ideal captain. By that I mean he is not the leader on men to the calibre of a Nick Riewoldt, Jonathan Brown Joel Selwood but is going to have to do until the next bloke is actually ready. We all know that Jack Viney will be that man but until he is a man lets not throw that burden on him, look what that did to Trengove.

It is time though that more then one bloke stood up to be counted as a leader. Garland tried last year and good on him. But where was Frawley? Dunn? Jamar? Watts? The senior blokes that went missing when the club needed someone to lead them on. Watts is the most disappointing for my mind as he actually sat there and complained last year that the club had no real leaders rather then taking it on and having a crack himself.

If Jones and Grimes are the only blokes at this stage ready and able. Give them the job

Paul Roos is the teflon man. Nothing sticks to the guy. He can even rise above the pack to praise Neeld for some of the elite aspirations he had. The positivity that flows from the man has permeated the maze of the office at the club. Players are even getting to training earlier than necessary. The dinner at Roos' place recently with assistants was the culmination of togetherness and love and positivity. In the past I'd puke, but Roos gives it substance.

Neeld cops a lot, and he copped more from me than anybody...and that is for most of his tenure. What irks me though is standing next to supporters who lazily criticise his decision to go with Trengove and Grimes as captain. You can be a monkey and state that "Grimes and Trenners" were too young and should not have been given the gig. Fact is, they were the best 2 of a very average lot. I'd say the only choices.

Nathan Jones gets tossed up, because prospectively, he was the best player in one of the worst outfits in memory. That is great, but nowhere near excellence. Jones is an introvert and should never be captain material in my book. He is favorite for the job in 2014 I would guess, but I reckon Roos is a better judge than that.

That left the wild boys Moloney and Sylvia. Gee wiz, enough said.

Mitch Clark had just arrived from Brisbane, and your Barry Davis - Chris Judd decisions are 2 in 50 years; and they were captains of their clubs pre-trade. Clark was not.

My 5c for 2014 is that Jack Viney will be in the leadership group. Too young many say. Well, no player had his intensity and repeat efforts per his tank at Melbourne in 2013. Dawes might be our Nick Maxwell too. Captain because of his brain rather than his footy ability.

Rubbish! But beautifully spoken!

Not sure where you get the "Jones is an introvert" line. Do you sit anywhere near the fence MCG on game day? Nathan Jones leads by example and voice. Very vocal, leads by both voice and action out on the field.

I think he is a big chance to get the Captaincy role or share it in 2014.

As for Neeld, my take is that he ran things the way he thought was right and gave it his best shot. He was a poor fit for the role when he took over but as they say "hindsight is a wonderful thing".

The thing I saw that was really strange in the season gone by was that players had lost confidence around half time of round one!!!!

Heads had already dropped and they went about their football as their confidence was shot!

That was really bizarre! What did the coaching staff do to them in the pre season to make them respond in this way.We're they getting bagged by the coaching staff pre season rather than encouraged.We're they petrified to make a mistake?

James Frawley was one notable but there were many others. Did anyone else notice this? I know it happens in football that players drop their heads and lose their confidence however I have never seen it happen half time of round one.

What did Neeld and co do to destroy their confidence pre season?

Moving forward I believe Roos is a afr better man manager than Neeld and expect to see the players reasonably bouyant and felling good about themselves at the start of the season as they should.

By that I assume you think that Dawes will not be fit for the first game of the season?

Just had a rotten run last year, not a full pre season, followed by one niggle and another, he still managed half the games

If we go with more than one captain, I expect him to be in the mix

He hasnt had a pre season for the last 4 years.. on going knee problems even when he was at Collingwood.

No way should he be in the mix, needs to get his body right first before being out on the park being a leader.

If Fitzpatrick continues to improve rapidly like he did last year then sorry but Dawes will be find it very tough to break into the side.

Very good post Nutbean.

The concern for me will be when the changeover actually happens. For the best part of three decades our players have run the club. Roos will run the place over the next 3 years, but it's the next era after that where I am concerned.

Can Roos change in three years what has been happening for three decades? If he signed a 5 year deal I'd be feeling more confident of the longevity of the culture change.

That's the million dollar question - Neeld undoubtedly wanted to break the acceptance of "close enough good enough" from the past. This permeated through all sections of the club ( as I saw it) - he just didn't have the people skills to do it. From an outsiders viewpoint Peter Jackson looks like a very professional customer who seems to work with people and I have always admired Roos engaging approach and the way he brings people along. The big question is whether he gets buy in from everyone ( and this buy in gets difficult to maintain when you are not winning games so this will be the test)

watched the sheahan sheedy interview from 2012 last night

he said PJ was the best FM he worked with

your right in my opinion about neeld,

had the ideas,not the technique

On captaincy ? I seriously don't care. What I do want to see happen next season is what I see at other clubs. I want what we consider our top tier players/leaders leading the way. It speaks volumes about last year that Terlich finished third in the Bluey, Matt Jones fourth and Dunn sixth. This is not disrespect to these players but is damning on other players who we know should producing more.

Just want to comment on the OP suggestion that Viney should be in the leadership group in 2014. I don't think that's wise. If he is "captain material" he'll get there when he's a bit older. In the meantime, just let him develop his game.

As this thread proves, many are quick to suggest it was a mistake, without actually saying who should have got the gig. And remember this, Jones' form was better post-decision rather than pre-decision.

Dawes is a paradox. He is the smart hard-working solid character the MFC will benefit from, but unfortunately can't clunk it. I think with the Dawes pick, Collingwood got a gem in Grundy. Its not what we gave up that will kill us; it is who they got with what we gave up.

As this thread proves, many are quick to suggest it was a mistake, without actually saying who should have got the gig. And remember this, Jones' form was better post-decision rather than pre-decision.

Dawes is a paradox. He is the smart hard-working solid character the MFC will benefit from, but unfortunately can't clunk it. I think with the Dawes pick, Collingwood got a gem in Grundy. Its not what we gave up that will kill us; it is who they got with what we gave up.

We traded picks 20 and 45 for Dawes. Grundy was drafted with pick 18. Collingwood used pick 20 on Broomhead.

As this thread proves, many are quick to suggest it was a mistake, without actually saying who should have got the gig. And remember this, Jones' form was better post-decision rather than pre-decision.

Dawes is a paradox. He is the smart hard-working solid character the MFC will benefit from, but unfortunately can't clunk it. I think with the Dawes pick, Collingwood got a gem in Grundy. Its not what we gave up that will kill us; it is who they got with what we gave up.

That's a misrepresentation of the facts.

We gave up pick 20, but Collingwood already had picks 18 & 19, and Grundy was chosen at 18.

If Broomhead becomes a star, maybe you'd have some sort of point.

edit: as CB has already pointed out.

I really don't see why Dawes name gets thrown up as a leadership candidate. The only thing that ever really lifted him above anyone else is that he knew what success looked like coming from a dominate club of the competition. But he was not held in a leadership regard there either.

When has he ever taken the game on and said "Come on boys, follow me!"?

The closest thing we have to that has to be Nathan Jones. He is still not the ideal captain. By that I mean he is not the leader on men to the calibre of a Nick Riewoldt, Jonathan Brown Joel Selwood but is going to have to do until the next bloke is actually ready. We all know that Jack Viney will be that man but until he is a man lets not throw that burden on him, look what that did to Trengove.

It is time though that more then one bloke stood up to be counted as a leader. Garland tried last year and good on him. But where was Frawley? Dunn? Jamar? Watts? The senior blokes that went missing when the club needed someone to lead them on. Watts is the most disappointing for my mind as he actually sat there and complained last year that the club had no real leaders rather then taking it on and having a crack himself.

If Jones and Grimes are the only blokes at this stage ready and able. Give them the job

When Family day comes around or you can get to training, go and speak to Chris Dawes you will soon see why his name gets put up

He hasnt had a pre season for the last 4 years.. on going knee problems even when he was at Collingwood.

No way should he be in the mix, needs to get his body right first before being out on the park being a leader.

If Fitzpatrick continues to improve rapidly like he did last year then sorry but Dawes will be find it very tough to break into the side.

His knee is fixed, he is out bike riding to build up the aerobic fitness and he is doing gym work, as I said in my training post, they want everybody cherry ripe after Xmas, he was as frustrated as everybody else last year, 85 over 5-6 seasons years is not "injured all the time" ask Scott Gumbleton and Ross Lyon has taken him, Dawes will come good

He hasnt had a pre season for the last 4 years.. on going knee problems even when he was at Collingwood.

No way should he be in the mix, needs to get his body right first before being out on the park being a leader.

If Fitzpatrick continues to improve rapidly like he did last year then sorry but Dawes will be find it very tough to break into the side.

Dawes broke a knuckle in 2011 and missed 6 games. He played 61 out of a possible 76 in his last three years at Collingwood. Are you sure you are not recalling the knuckle injury in 2011?

And would we have a leadership group if it was defined by form and injury?

BTW, Fitzpatrick can't play Dawes' role. He is slight, far from proven, and does not have the ability to assert himself on the field.

That's a misrepresentation of the facts.

On Demonland, I am shocked!!!!

On Demonland, I am shocked!!!!

Are you speaking from personal experience?

As this thread proves, many are quick to suggest it was a mistake, without actually saying who should have got the gig. And remember this, Jones' form was better post-decision rather than pre-decision.

Dawes is a paradox. He is the smart hard-working solid character the MFC will benefit from, but unfortunately can't clunk it. I think with the Dawes pick, Collingwood got a gem in Grundy. Its not what we gave up that will kill us; it is who they got with what we gave up.

We traded picks 20 and 45 for Dawes. Grundy was drafted with pick 18. Collingwood used pick 20 on Broomhead.

That's a misrepresentation of the facts.

We gave up pick 20, but Collingwood already had picks 18 & 19, and Grundy was chosen at 18.

If Broomhead becomes a star, maybe you'd have some sort of point.

edit: as CB has already pointed out.

We don't really know who and in what order Collingwood would have picked if they only had 18 & 19, they might have gone Kennedy and Broomhead.

Pretty sure it would have been Grundy but the point is we gave away a good pick on Dawes and to date he hasn't delivered, he needs to this year.

We don't really know who and in what order Collingwood would have picked if they only had 18 & 19, they might have gone Kennedy and Broomhead.

Pretty sure it would have been Grundy but the point is we gave away a good pick on Dawes and to date he hasn't delivered, he needs to this year.

That is a good point - we did give up a bit to get him.

The point that it was not Grundy is also a good point.

Are you speaking from personal experience?

Actually you are misinterpreting who that was aimed at and by........

Actually you are misinterpreting who that was aimed at and by........

No, you would be doing that. I thought you were giving a self-appraisal.

Dawes broke a knuckle in 2011 and missed 6 games. He played 61 out of a possible 76 in his last three years at Collingwood. Are you sure you are not recalling the knuckle injury in 2011?

And would we have a leadership group if it was defined by form and injury?

BTW, Fitzpatrick can't play Dawes' role. He is slight, far from proven, and does not have the ability to assert himself on the field.

He had a knee reco when he was drafted and has played up on and off since. It will continue untill end of his career. Thats a fact.

And thats why if he continues to improve. Fitzy has massive upside. He all proved to us that this year.

Why couldnt he take the next level up and take Dawes position? He has already improved his contested marking, something Dawes struggles to do overhead..

When Family day comes around or you can get to training, go and speak to Chris Dawes you will soon see why his name gets put up

I have no doubt he is a ripping bloke, speaks well, loves the club and wants the best for the MFC, but I'm speaking as a footballer myself.

I have never really seen him throw his over the footy just to make sure he made a contest of it, pick up a bloke off the ground and get him going again. I haven't seen him drag everyone over when they were down and really get them to lift.

This club needs a leader on the ground who wont put up with the [censored] that has been dished up for the last 5 years and will go out of his way to make everyone around him better. We need a bloke that will do something extraordinary and look back at the others and say that's how we want to do it. That is the kind of bloke players want at front.

Chris Dawes just doesn't seem like that bloke.

I have no doubt he is a ripping bloke, speaks well, loves the club and wants the best for the MFC, but I'm speaking as a footballer myself.

I have never really seen him throw his over the footy just to make sure he made a contest of it, pick up a bloke off the ground and get him going again. I haven't seen him drag everyone over when they were down and really get them to lift.

This club needs a leader on the ground who wont put up with the [censored] that has been dished up for the last 5 years and will go out of his way to make everyone around him better. We need a bloke that will do something extraordinary and look back at the others and say that's how we want to do it. That is the kind of bloke players want at front.

Chris Dawes just doesn't seem like that bloke.

we will have 3 of them doing that....Hogan, Dawes and Clark......that's what was wanted unfortunately due to injury it didn't happen, this year who knows, imagine being a defender and watching those three walking towards you before the first bounce, if Dawes gets it right and Clark, and I have spoken to both of them, I reckon they will tear the arms of the first defender who goes near them......they both feel they have let everybody down and want to prove themselves again

Are you speaking from personal experience?

No I did the self appraisal.....it only resulted in what I thought....I am wonderful

we will have 3 of them doing that....Hogan, Dawes and Clark......that's what was wanted unfortunately due to injury it didn't happen, this year who knows, imagine being a defender and watching those three walking towards you before the first bounce, if Dawes gets it right and Clark, and I have spoken to both of them, I reckon they will tear the arms of the first defender who goes near them......they both feel they have let everybody down and want to prove themselves again

And let hope that they do. It been a long time since the Dees played a win at all costs game