Should we pick up Tom Boyd if we get pick 1 as PP (or he is still there at 2)?

[rjay 24,885]

it wouldn't do him any harm starting out like Neita did. anyway, hogan won't be ready to play All 20147 games as an 18 yr old against the monsters of the AFL... most likely he'd play as a 3rd tall on a flank.

Lets NOT do to Hogan, what happened to Watts.

Very, very different types. Hogan will be intimidating the senior opposition from game one, that's the way he plays and he has the size to back it up. watts doesn't and didn't.

[McQueen 17,864]

Not really, who are the A grade forwards we have on the list now? We don't have one, we have 2 who could be in Hogan and Clark but the others are nowhere near it and as 'Young Dee' identifies we wouldn't get much on the trade table for them.

I think the argument is that we have not been able to witness the quality of the forwards we have because the delivery to them has been really low and of poor quality. Our Inside 50 average is pathetic.

The group of Clark, Dawes, Howe, Watts and Hogan all have the ability to mark and kick the ball well. Just need to get it down to them.

[Young Dee 1,303]

I think the argument is that we have not been able to witness the quality of the forwards we have because the delivery to them has been really low and of poor quality. Our Inside 50 average is pathetic.

The group of Clark, Dawes, Howe, Watts and Hogan all have the ability to mark and kick the ball well. Just need to get it down to them.

Not just delivery but also the fact that - Clark Dawes and Hogan have been injured/VFL (We have never had more than one of those players in our a team)

Get them all on the field and get some ready to go mifielders (instead of Boyd) and see how they go.

Add Watts, Howe and a small forward (Barry/Kent/Blease or trade)

Edited September 9, 2013 by Young Dee

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

I'd grab Boyd if we got a PP but not if he was our only top 10 pick.

I'm not overly confident relying on Dawes or Clark to play a full season.

Clark has got 2 years left of his contract. If he can't get himself on the park this year, I would kiss him good bye.

Ditto for Dawes chronic calf injuries has sidelined him. Chronic conditions never seem to go away.

We definitely need one of our top 10 picks to trade for a top midfielder.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I don't think i'd be making an outrageous statement by saying that Hogan has a lot more going for him then Watts. I'd also go as far to say that Hogan is more ready to be a KPP now then Watts will ever be

of course he is destined for KPP, & I think you know what I'm saying. and I think your playing games with my post.... Neitz was always going to be KPP, but often its better to play a kid who is capable of it, in defence first, so he isn't the Hunted straight off...

Watts has never shown since he started, an ability to be a Power Forward, & doesn't like the attention... by contrast Hogan does, but he's a puppy compared to the key defenders atmo.

Hogan has KPP written all over him, & potentially a Pavlich style as well? but to make him a Key Posi player straight off has dangers about it. IMO he won't play all games next year, as I think he'll need to take breaks. & no doubt some at Casey.

Watts, I think we'll see him on the wing next year.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Very, very different types. Hogan will be intimidating the senior opposition from game one, that's the way he plays and he has the size to back it up. watts doesn't and didn't.

Intimidating,,, game 1. Nah.

he'll play 3rd tall, or he'll play back.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

of course he is destined for KPP, & I think you know what I'm saying. and I think your playing games with my post.... Neitz was always going to be KPP, but often its better to play a kid who is capable of it, in defence first, so he isn't the Hunted straight off...

Watts has never shown since he started, an ability to be a Power Forward, & doesn't like the attention... by contrast Hogan does, but he's a puppy compared to the key defenders atmo.

Hogan has KPP written all over him, & potentially a Pavlich style as well? but to make him a Key Posi player straight off has dangers about it. IMO he won't play all games next year, as I think he'll need to take breaks. & no doubt some at Casey.

Watts, I think we'll see him on the wing next year.

All good Deeluded - I reckon Hogan is one bloke that will benefit more from playing AFL then letting him develop in the VFL - the blokes a beast he's one bloke who is ready to go now IMO

[Axis of Bob 11,685]

If we get pick 1, I'd say that the trade value of the pick is far greater than the draft value of pick 1.

We are arguing over whether or not we should take the clear number 1 pick this year, which suggests that his value is much greater to others than it is to us. As such, we should get this value from another club in a trade, rather than in the form of Boyd.

[dee-luded 2,959]

All good Deeluded - I reckon Hogan is one bloke that will benefit more from playing AFL then letting him develop in the VFL - the blokes a beast he's one bloke who is ready to go now IMO

thats what I'm saying... how did you deduce I want him to play the season at VFL? playing half back early season, isn't playing VFL. its playing in the Red & Blue Demons jumper.

DEE-velopment is The name of the game, & is the modus operandi of the Swans.

[jazza 1,323]

All good Deeluded - I reckon Hogan is one bloke that will benefit more from playing AFL then letting him develop in the VFL - the blokes a beast he's one bloke who is ready to go now IMO

spoke to a young eastern rangers player the other day and we talked about boyd/cunnington/Hogan, his take was

cunnington/played seniors at 15 and spent a year playing against grown men did him the world of good

Hogan/ has spent a year playing against men,done him the world of good

boyd/the real deal,but most eastern rangers has never played against men

the young man in question also played for metro u18s this year and commented,i ve never played against men and seeing some of them live,left me knowing im at least 2 /3 years away from competeing body on body against these blokes

[Fat Tony 5,220]

If we get pick 1, I'd say that the trade value of the pick is far greater than the draft value of pick 1.

We are arguing over whether or not we should take the clear number 1 pick this year, which suggests that his value is much greater to others than it is to us. As such, we should get this value from another club in a trade, rather than in the form of Boyd.

I also think we should (hypothetically) trade the rights to Boyd but it really depends on if we can lure sufficient value players/midfielders away from their clubs. We haven't been able to do this recently without waving big money contracts, so I won't hold my breath.

[Adam The God 30,126]

I think we all understand that a lot of our issues lie in the dearth of midfield talent. We need to strengthen this area, no doubt. Having said this, I'm bewildered that some of you would take a mid and pass up on a more talented KPF, merely because we need mids. You take best available. We need to fix our midfield, but you find other ways. You take the best kid with the pick you have.

Edited September 9, 2013 by AdamFarr

[dee-luded 2,959]

If we get pick 1, I'd say that the trade value of the pick is far greater than the draft value of pick 1.

We are arguing over whether or not we should take the clear number 1 pick this year, which suggests that his value is much greater to others than it is to us. As such, we should get this value from another club in a trade, rather than in the form of Boyd.

especially since we want urgent improvement of performance, results & ladder.

but I think the speculation is about the (PP & Pick 2) scenario. how do we spend in that scenario?

I'd like to play both sides as we are light on for real class, & for experience, & for talent in big Midfield bodies.

.... this Is why I want the experience to come from the free agency elders list with $$$$$$$, & only trade our early picks for the likes of Gaff etc.

we only need 2 years of teaching before Viney & Trengove, & others will be cherry ripe. the elders can lead, & teach, & take the pressure off somewhat.

[McQueen 17,864]

I think we all understand that a lot of our issues lie in the dearth of midfield talent. We need to strengthen this area, no doubt. Having said this, I'm bewildered that some of you would take a mid and pass up on a more talented KPF, merely because we need mids. You take best available. We need to fix our midfield, but you find other ways. You take the best kid with the pick you have.

Adam, I'm equally as bewildered that you are thinking along those lines when you agree wholeheartedly that we have no midfield depth.

How can we expect to breed a 'team first' philosophy when we go out and draft against our needs?

[dee-luded 2,959]

I also think we should (hypothetically) trade the rights to Boyd but it really depends on if we can lure sufficient value players/midfielders away from their clubs. We haven't been able to do this recently without waving big money contracts, so I won't hold my breath.

FatTony, If we got Mitch Clark fit & firing next year, & Dawes up & going & Fitzy up & going, along with our other big men, how much do you reckon one of those would be worth next year to a team needing a ready made Key Tall Forward/Ruck?

I think if we took Boyd, if we had the pick available, we could find a great deal next year for another HighQuality Mid... this could be where Gaff comes in as well?

If we didn't have Clark, if he was finished up, would we be looking to take Boyd now to replace him?

[rjay 24,885]

Intimidating,,, game 1. Nah.

he'll play 3rd tall, or he'll play back.

Yep, he will push them around like he did in the NAB and the VFL. It's the way he plays, you can't liken him to Watts.

[Fat Tony 5,220]

FatTony, If we got Mitch Clark fit & firing next year, & Dawes up & going & Fitzy up & going, along with our other big men, how much do you reckon one of those would be worth next year to a team needing a ready made Key Tall Forward/Ruck?

I think if we took Boyd, if we had the pick available, we could find a great deal next year for another HighQuality Mid... this could be where Gaff comes in as well?

If we didn't have Clark, if he was finished up, would we be looking to take Boyd now to replace him?

I really don’t think we want another KPF. IMO we could build our whole forward line around Hogan as the sole KPF if required. The kid is that good but will need space around him. Remember Freo has one foot in the Grand Final with Pavlich, Mayne and two gun crumbers as their permanent forwards.

To your first question, I think even if Clark, Dawes etc are fit and firing, their trade value may not increase by as much as you think because a) the forward line is overcrowded and not working and/or b) our midfield is still likely to be weak.

In saying all this, once we are at the draft table we must take the best available, which would be Boyd if we have #1. For this reason, we should aim to trade the pick as long as we can get fair value (even if #1 is split into other early picks because we cannot lure players).

[T-34 409]

As long as we are not trading for the sake of it.

We would need to be getting A grade talent or close to it with another high pick thrown in.

If they are looking to bend us over the trade table just walk away and take the kid as best available.

We must be looking to get full worth for the pick as I'm sick of trade table mismanagement.

If this situation presents, we hold all the cards and need to act as such.

Does everyones thoughts change if Sylvia and Watts decide to walk?

[PaulRB 6,349]

Even if Boyd is super talented, he is young and tall, meaning he'll need to be developed and eased into AFL footy with a good amount of time playing VFL. So we'd not benefit fully for a year or three...

Hogan has just completed his year in the VFL and I doubt will be fully comfortable and dominating in the AFL for a couple of years.

Given we have invested in the development of Fitzy, and Gawn as tal forwards (ruck) and have Dawes and Clark we simply don't need Boyd, unless we can trade one of our existing talls. And given the ego nature of trades we'd get alot more for a No# 1 draft pick requiring 2-3 years dev than any of the others given injuries etc...

We need mids, got to trade.

[deeko 952]

I want mids, with some mids and then followed by some mids. Sick of hearing about 'once in a generation key position players.'

I'd rather not punt on these players and just wait and make sure they become decent players before chasing them as they always become available. We did it well with Clark and Dawes (ignoring the injuries).

West Coast did it with JJK, Sydney with Tippett are examples also of how this can be done. At least giving them a few years makes sure we haven't wasted draft picks like we did with Cook and a lesser degree Watts.

I'd say there is less chance of error when picking up the best mid in the draft in comparison to the best KPF so let's not take more chances.

If we did get him anyway, I wouldn't mind to see Jesse at CHB as his aggressiveness at the pill and great contested marking would see him become the general and I think Chip would like the company of another big rig down there.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

thats what I'm saying... how did you deduce I want him to play the season at VFL? playing half back early season, isn't playing VFL. its playing in the Red & Blue Demons jumper.

DEE-velopment is The name of the game, & is the modus operandi of the Swans.

Intimidating,,, game 1. Nah.

he'll play 3rd tall, or he'll play back.

My only point in this thread is Watts in not a KPP

On Hogan's readiness for AFL - we'll find out in 2014 but Watts won't be KPP that I am pretty confident on (which is what we are talking about KPPs? and if we should draft more??)

Im actually not disagreeing with you dee luded - I do agree Hogan will struggle at times in the AFL but I strongly believe he is ready to go, strong KPP who could set the g alight from rd 1

If we get pick 1, I'd say that the trade value of the pick is far greater than the draft value of pick 1.

We are arguing over whether or not we should take the clear number 1 pick this year, which suggests that his value is much greater to others than it is to us. As such, we should get this value from another club in a trade, rather than in the form of Boyd.

Bob sums it up nicely -

I have no idea if we need Boyd or not - but I do know we need some quality mids now

Edited September 9, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[samcantstandya 1,044]

Keep Boyd as it's not often that these type of players become available. Unless you finish near the bottom there is no chance of getting a player like Boyd. Like that saying at Hawthorn. "What would you do if God came to Hawthorn?" Answer: Move Peter Hudson to CHF.

Hogan,Dawes,& Clark can all play different positions. Clark can play ruck, Dawes or Hogan could play a key back role etc.

While is may take a year longer to get the midfield right it should not be at the expense of a Boyd.

Always go for the best player available. I'd get Boyd if GWS pass on him. As far as an abundance of tall forwards.... Clark can play as ruck, Watts as wing (Roos was a wing) and even Hogan as CHB. Although I'd like to see him as a forward. Its hard to draft a good big man as they're not always available, but there are loads of midfielders.

[rjay 24,885]

Even if Boyd is super talented, he is young and tall, meaning he'll need to be developed and eased into AFL footy with a good amount of time playing VFL. So we'd not benefit fully for a year or three...

Hogan has just completed his year in the VFL and I doubt will be fully comfortable and dominating in the AFL for a couple of years.

Given we have invested in the development of Fitzy, and Gawn as tal forwards (ruck) and have Dawes and Clark we simply don't need Boyd, unless we can trade one of our existing talls. And given the ego nature of trades we'd get alot more for a No# 1 draft pick requiring 2-3 years dev than any of the others given injuries etc...

We need mids, got to trade.

The really good ones step up from the start. Brown and Cloke came in and played good footy, Cameron at GWS the same. Of course they develop further with experience but they make an impact from the start. Hogan will next year and if Boyd is all he is cracked up to be he will do the same, his body is right for AFL.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

If we get pick 1, I'd say that the trade value of the pick is far greater than the draft value of pick 1.

We are arguing over whether or not we should take the clear number 1 pick this year, which suggests that his value is much greater to others than it is to us. As such, we should get this value from another club in a trade, rather than in the form of Boyd.

Would want an absolute A grade midfielder in exchange. Sloan, Murphy ,(Nths ) Swallow, Cotchin ( no not Martin tks) would do it for me. No interest at all in B graders or multitudes of them. Who knows what Essendon's position might be though and of course minor issue is gaining the pick in the first place. If we get it I hope we trade as tough as nails as it would be a nice position to be in.

[jacey 333]

I think we all understand that a lot of our issues lie in the dearth of midfield talent. We need to strengthen this area, no doubt. Having said this, I'm bewildered that some of you would take a mid and pass up on a more talented KPF, merely because we need mids. You take best available. We need to fix our midfield, but you find other ways. You take the best kid with the pick you have.

Depends how far the talent ceilings for Boyd and the best mid is.

If Boyd has all the traits of Johnno Brown while Mid X has all the traits to be good/solid 200 game, it'll be nuts to go for that midfielder.