The overwhelming probability in my mind is that there were records - I don't believe any professional sporting organisation would embark on such an experimental program without keeping them. There may never be proof of the destruction of records assuming physically it was done properly.

Even so there may be circumstantial evidence. For example, if they deleted entire file systems and backups which included totally innocent stuff, you have to ask why they haven't got the innocent stuff available. I don't know how strong such evidence would be considered. The only other evidence will be if someone squeals, and then it will be their word against others.

The lack of records protects the players. The absence of it is proof of bad governance and any evidence of destruction is indication of a cover-up which as we know often hangs people more often than the original crime.

There have been enough sporting organisations at the high echelons of their sport to evidence that if clubs want to they can circumvent proper governance. In Australia, you have NRL and two clubs which cannot validate that their players did not take performance enhancing drugs.

If it can be proved that the records existed within an organisation then the inability of that organisation to table them in part of full when requested would suggest that at best they had been inadvertently destroyed or at worst wilfully. If there was evidence that they had deleted importance files and the manner in which it was done then its a powerful contributor to guilt.

And the lack of records does not protect the players at all in this situation. Sadly theyre the victims in this and the lack of records protects the Danks of this world. There are alot of players sweating on this whole matter. They have no idea what they may have taken and they could not feel less protected.

Im not sure Hird is the architect of all this.... He played his part, but he is not alone....

Weren't most of these guys involved, at Geelong with bomber Thompson.... when they won there flags? Now we all know why Geelong's players are so much bigger then everybody else's..... I can't see how Bomber Thompson is in the clear here! If anything I'd say he is the architect....

Im also suss on the AFL involvement in all this.... How did the AFL know to call the Bombers, they day before this news broke? Did they know about this program? Have they turned a blind eye on program's like this before?

It all smells like corruption to me...

Hold on, Chappy has size about him, Hawkins is naturally a big boy, Bartell is stocky but all achievable in the gym, Selwood is tough and courageous but by no means big. Scarlett, Harley, Mooney, Ling, Enright, Corey, Taylor, even bloody Ottens to me and I'm no expert but am also no stranger to a gym are average weight for height in terms of an AFL footballers body.

Also aren't these substances in question designed to aid in recovery allowing the body to be pushed harder. Essendon aren't a big bodied team in general. In Hirds and Bombers first year together they said (before all this crap broke) we wanted to see how far we could push the players.

And the lack of records does not protect the players at all in this situation. Sadly theyre the victims in this and the lack of records protects the Danks of this world. There are alot of players sweating on this whole matter. They have no idea what they may have taken and they could not feel less protected.

I meant protects them from being charged with taking illegal substances (though perhaps not 100%). Clearly it doesn't protect them health and mental health-wise. Unless Essendon/Dank etc come clean and it is clear everything was safe (unlikely on both counts) they will be worrying forever. And as soon as a couple of them come down in 20 year with some odd disease, even if it is just a coincidence, it will all blow up again.

Hirdipus Rex?

The Golden boy could certainly make the part his own. Poke his eyes out with used syringes? And Dumbetriou could lead the chorus.

I meant protects them from being charged with taking illegal substances (though perhaps not 100%). Clearly it doesn't protect them health and mental health-wise. Unless Essendon/Dank etc come clean and it is clear everything was safe (unlikely on both counts) they will be worrying forever. And as soon as a couple of them come down in 20 year with some odd disease, even if it is just a coincidence, it will all blow up again.

You are assuming that they deliberately or knowingly took illegal drugs and are seeking "protection" from the lack of records. That is indeed a long bow and without any substantiation to date.

And your view of the protection they get pales into insignificance to bigger health risk.....not to mention the appalling breach of trust by an employer over an employee re workplace safety.

I reckon any rightminded Essendon footballer would prefer the records tabled and treatments validated. This is the very least the players deserve from EFC.

You are assuming that they deliberately or knowingly took illegal drugs and are seeking "protection" from the lack of records. That is indeed a long bow and without any substantiation to date.

And your view of the protection they get pales into insignificance to bigger health risk.....not to mention the appalling breach of trust by an employer over an employee re workplace safety.

I reckon any rightminded Essendon footballer would prefer the records tabled and treatments validated. This is the very least the players deserve from EFC.

I'm not assuming they took them knowingly. Anyway as I understand it that is irrelevant to WADA. Of course I don't know if the are 'seeking' protection from lack of records. But if I was guilty of something I'd be happy for there to be no (public) record of it, though for health reasons I'd like a private record.

As for the other points you made, I agree with then 100%. Have said similar in earlier posts. You assume I was saying protection from penalties is greater importance than health risks etc. when I have been saying nothing of the sort.

Does Messendon still have a hearing on Monday with the AFL Board?

I'm not assuming they took them knowingly. .... But if I was guilty of something I'd be happy for there to be no (public) record of it, though for health reasons I'd like a private record.

As for the other points you made, I agree with then 100%. Have said similar in earlier posts. You assume I was saying protection from penalties is greater importance than health risks etc. when I have been saying nothing of the sort.

If they knew they were guilty then they must have taken the supplements knowingly and deliberately. How else could they know they were guilty? The big issue is the players dont what know their situation is

I didnt make any assumptions.

I could not understrand why you would make this statement when clearly that is not the case...

The lack of records protects the players.

And seemingly neither do you.

Does Messendon still have a hearing on Monday with the AFL Board?

hearing ...no

ongoing discussions....yes

Ahh! The classic element of Greek ( or in this case maybe geek) tragedy - hubris.

Bbo - maybe it is Macedonian. And the Macedonian hasn't exactly covered himself with glory over all this.

If they knew they were guilty then they must have taken the supplements knowingly and deliberately. How else could they know they were guilty? The big issue is the players dont what know their situation is

I didnt make any assumptions.

I could not understrand why you would make this statement when clearly that is not the case...

And seemingly neither do you.

How else would they know they were guilty? Well, perhaps they found out later that what they were taking was illegal. (You can be guilty in the eyes of WADA without taking things knowingly and deliberately).

In any case I did not state the players knew they were guilty. I merely said IF I was guilty I'd be happy for the records to be destroyed (but added the comment I'd like to privately have my records for health reasons).

I think you should reread what we both wrote. But hopefully you have something better to do. Apparently I don't. Must get a life......

How else would they know they were guilty? Well, perhaps they found out later that what they were taking was illegal. (You can be guilty in the eyes of WADA without taking things knowingly and deliberately).

In any case I did not state the players knew they were guilty. I merely said IF I was guilty I'd be happy for the records to be destroyed (but added the comment I'd like to privately have my records for health reasons).

I think you should reread what we both wrote. But hopefully you have something better to do. Apparently I don't. Must get a life......

Agree you should get a life.....

Your hamfisted efforts to support an original erroneous statement does not hold water. The fact is that they dont know, the AFL dont know and ASADA dont know (yet) what they had taken. So how could they be possibly guilty at this time and want the records destroyed.

Beggars belief.

The fact is Rhino you know f&ck all. Be cautious when quantifying others

emphasis on KNOW

you like others summise....unless you know...you DONT

Your arguments sound like they are based on knowns !!! they cant be unless ....are they ??

tread carefully

oh btw simples !!!

The fact is Rhino you know f&ck all. Be cautious when quantifying others

emphasis on KNOW

you like others summise....unless you know...you DONT

Your arguments sound like they are based on knowns !!! they cant be unless ....are they ??

tread carefully

oh btw simples !!!

You know even less and I am not surprised you cant follow the rather basic points.

Anything I have referred to is in the public arena. I challenged the assertion that "the lack of records protects the players".

The lack of records doesnt protect the players under any circumstances. Its quite the opposite.

Which statement of mine do you have issue with? Where have I claimed information that is not public or known?? In fact I have challenged assertions made by another poster that have not been established as fact.

See if you can add something of value other than the glib and misguided cheap shot.

Agree you should get a life.....

Your hamfisted efforts to support an original erroneous statement does not hold water. The fact is that they dont know, the AFL dont know and ASADA dont know (yet) what they had taken. So how could they be possibly guilty at this time and want the records destroyed.

Beggars belief.

I don't know, the AFL knows a bit, ASADA possibly a lot more, and Dank/Essendon maybe more again, maybe not.

You attribute things to me which are in your imagination, not in what I wrote. For a start, look up "If" in the dictionary.

One thing I do know is that you and I will never agree - even when I wrote I agree 100% with you on the critical points you go on and on.

Note to self: don't emulate RR anymore, it's a slippery slope.

You know even less and I am not surprised you cant follow the rather basic points.

Anything I have referred to is in the public arena. I challenged the assertion that "the lack of records protects the players".

The lack of records doesnt protect the players under any circumstances. Its quite the opposite.

Which statement of mine do you have issue with? Where have I claimed information that is not public or known?? In fact I have challenged assertions made by another poster that have not been established as fact.

See if you can add something of value other than the glib and misguided cheap shot.

mate you are a doofus personified. You fail to read..You just kneejerk

What do you KNOW ?? what CAN you know ??

shlt all I suggest . No one does .we all 'think". You however suggest you know You are without doubt beoynd castigation

I don't know, the AFL knows a bit, ASADA possibly a lot more, and Dank/Essendon maybe more again, maybe not.

You attribute things to me which are in your imagination, not in what I wrote. For a start, look up "If" in the dictionary.

One thing I do know is that you and I will never agree - even when I wrote I agree 100% with you on the critical points you go on and on.

Note to self: don't emulate RR anymore, it's a slippery slope.

What the AFL, ASADA know is irrelevant to the what the players know. There isn't a plausible basis for the players wanting records destroyed. And your conditional statement of player guilt implies they know what they took and were complicit wanting the records destroyed. The case throughout this saga is there is no evidence that players knew what they took.

But we should leave it there as old Bub is struggling to follow.

See if you can add something of value other than the glib and misguided cheap shot.

Whats wrong with cheap shots?

It what we do in Demonland.

So sit back and have a banana smoothy and wait for the 2014 season.

mate you are a doofus personified. You fail to read..You just kneejerk

You have brilliantly captured my vision of you Bub but without the knee. Well done

I will say this, if us, Carlton and Adelaide lost draft picks for salary cap cheating, and Essendon don't lose at least 2-3 years of draft picks for DRUG cheating, the AFL should be ashamed of themselves.

I'd rather Essendon play finals, knowing they won't make it far anyway, than watch them continue to develop their club via the draft.

We all know that draft penalties are the things that hurt the club most, and take the longest to recover from. A fine is not an issue for such a rich club, neither is taking away one or two finals games. They should pay for years to come for putting their players and the AFL in jeopardy, and then kicking up a stink, tainting the entire competition and the 2013 season with their garbage.

You have brilliantly captured my vision of you Bub but without the knee. Well done

can i say this....well you would know,. that you know all

Rhino..what do you KNOW ?? even you cant misinterpret !! actually you will.

You KNOW NOTHING !! absolutely nothing . Thing is. No one does. You however like to place yourself on some higher plain..

we're not so stupid..

hand off i suggest

If we are basing the "NOTHING" based on what you know Bub, it's a pretty safe bet that everyone else knows at least a little more.

See if you can actually add something to the thread....go on...surprise yourself

You're fooling yourself Rhino, even you understands English,

You bring others up to order yet you DONT like being called to task : suck it up buddy. Oh sorry that wouldn't be up to your taste.

Understand the slight... . can you? its that you want to superimpose your suppositions as facts. They are not. Sorry bud you're not the super-poser that you suppose.

No-one actually knows. Comprehend ?

If they knew they were guilty then they must have taken the supplements knowingly and deliberately. How else could they know they were guilty? The big issue is the players dont what know their situation is

If they've been properly informed then it's likely they would be aware that they can be found to have breached the AFL drug code without having taken the supplements knowingly and deliberately.

We need to wait until the final ASADA report is issued or possibly the ACC investigation is concluded to find out how it all works and who gets served with infraction notices and who gets charged with what.