Neeld is not the problem

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

So where would Stevie J fit into your likes/dislikes meter!? There is surely a place for the mercurial as opposed to the fully committed all the time chaps.

As to your earlier comments re Moloney I think you are wrong. My understanding, based upon discussions with other players is that Moloney played a great role in bonding particularly for younger players. He privately explained to Neeld his concern about the gameplan and was then off-sided. His departure was a disaster and very concerning for colleagues.

Can't have been too private if you were there stueyspencer.

Edited May 29, 2013 by WAClark

[Pennant St Dee 11,764]

So where would Stevie J fit into your likes/dislikes meter!? There is surely a place for the mercurial as opposed to the fully committed all the time chaps.

As to your earlier comments re Moloney I think you are wrong. My understanding, based upon discussions with other players is that Moloney played a great role in bonding particularly for younger players. He privately explained to Neeld his concern about the gameplan and was then off-sided. His departure was a disaster and very concerning for colleagues.

Until his 6 week exile in 2007 Stevie J was in my dislikes meter. It took the Cats leadership group to make him realise he was wasting his talent. I like Stevie J as a player and don't for one minute think he does not work extremely hard to run to space. Without going back through the old posts can you refresh me on Moloney?

[angrydee 842]

This.

And not just this past weekend but numerous games this year.

Spot on.

I can understand going backwards a little to move forwards. But we have gone from the starting line to the limit of the backmarkers

[Cards13 9,117]

Iv'a...... Internal changes that we have not heard of only this week?

[dpositive 1,602]

We have gone backwards in some areas, but when I consider the matchups of our players against other teams, particularly in the midfield, then I am not surprised we are getting smashed in the midfield. Our midfield is probably only more experienced the GWS. GC have a more experienced and talented midfield than us, so do the dogs, saints, etc etc etc.

With that said, I am looking forward to the time we have Sylvia return from suspension, Grimes and Clark back into the team, and a few more games experience into players like Toumpas and Viney. I think what Neeld and co need to do is place Sylvia in the middle with Jones for the rest of the season. If Magner can be maintained on the senior list, keep him in there, and we'll actually have mature bodies around the ball. I would also like to see us move one of the tall backs out of the side to make way for some smaller, more nimble players in the back line to help with our run and disposal out of the back half. I would like to see Strauss get more time back, and for him to be used to clear the ball out of the back 50, by collecting the ball after marks from our taller players. I would like to see maybe Jetta used in the backline for his tackling and agility. I can't help but think that having 5 out of 6 back men at more than 191cm's is hindering our ability to move the ball out of there. But, we lack small defenders, so there's little we can do.

I would like to see Blease back in to provide run and carry ahead of guys like Bail and Nicholson, but only when he can run out a game when providing as much defensive pressure as he does offensive spark. I would like to see Fitzpatrick get a game because he's earned it, but I don't think we can really say the forward line hasn't performed because we haven't been getting the ball in there.

I might be overly optimistic, but I think if we can keep Sylvia, Jones, Magner, Grimes all in around the middle, with the tackling of McKenzie, then our midfield will perform much MUCH better. Then we would likely get more clearances, more forward fifty entries, and score more often. But until we can get some of those key midfield cogs back, we will continue to get smashed in those areas.

You applying for the coaches Job Pm

and thats not a criticism coz I agree with most of what you are saying

If Neeld could present the argument you have he might have more support

I thought we had a little more depth and the Casey players are obviously learning the so called game plan so why not shift them through there

Magner Couch may be slow but add to the make up and can provide a rotation for Toump[as and Viney who are really too young to deliver every week

Its all about developing the squad exposure to the elite level and learning tactics. We could probably accept a loss a little more easily if we could see the actual plan for improvement.

Neeld doesnt really display that well and while it may be his aim and his legacy I fear it may be too late for him

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Iv'a...... Internal changes that we have not heard of only this week?

Sorry Cards. I don't understand.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

it all started so well. How times have changed.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZUegaw8h7U0

[pm24 451]

Listening to that speech, it seems clear that Neeld was always aware it would take time for the team to become the "hardest team to play against" though some people expected it to happen straight away.

It's amazing that I think Neeld's attitude and messages have remained pretty consistent along the journey, yet those listening to the message have changed the way they receive it over a period of 18 months........

Leads me to question who really has the problem.

[jazza 1,323]

Listening to that speech, it seems clear that Neeld was always aware it would take time for the team to become the "hardest team to play against" though some people expected it to happen straight away.

It's amazing that I think Neeld's attitude and messages have remained pretty consistent along the journey, yet those listening to the message have changed the way they receive it over a period of 18 months........

Leads me to question who really has the problem.

stop making SENSE

your meant to not like mn and agree with all the get rid of neeld posters

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Listening to that speech, it seems clear that Neeld was always aware it would take time for the team to become the "hardest team to play against" though some people expected it to happen straight away.

It's amazing that I think Neeld's attitude and messages have remained pretty consistent along the journey, yet those listening to the message have changed the way they receive it over a period of 18 months........

Leads me to question who really has the problem.

I, for one, didn't expect it to happen "straight away", but I did expect to see incremental improvement. Not go into reverse at a great rate of knots. I think that is a reasonable expectation for any paid up member.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,000]

Once again we are seeing a lot of people blaming the coach for things that should be squarely on the players.

"He's lost the players" "They don't play for him" Utter BS. They are professionals. They are paid a huge amount of money to do what the coach says. If they can't or won't do that, then it is THEIR lack of professionalism that is to blame, not the coach. He was brought into the club to bring a greater level of professionalism and has been pruning out the players who couldn't handle being told that they weren't up to scratch ever since. If a few more have to go before the message sinks in then so be it.

"The gameplan doesn't work" Again, utter BS. Casey are playing the same gameplan and are one of the top sides in the VFL. The difference is that their players EXECUTE the gameplan, while the majority of the senior side are either unable or unwilling to do so. Again, this is a fault of the playing group who need to work harder on their skills and execution. As Dawes said, the coach shouldn't be wasting time teaching his players how to put in.

"He can't develop players" Once again, UTTER BS. With a couple of exceptions the ONLY players on our list who are showing improvement are the ones Neeld has brought into the side. Taggert is showing us some good signs after a lot of injury issues last year, Viney and Toumpas are both going well and Jones and Terlich are flying. All players who were not tainted by previous coaches. If the senior players are refusing to "buy in" and are also showing less or no improvement, this is a massive indictment on THEM, not on the coach who is trying to salvage their club and in many cases their careers.

The common denominator in our poor performance from well before Neeld's arrival is the poor effort of the playing group. We've all heard the stories of players deciding not to show for training, or the leadership group overruling the coach and refusing to do a time trial. That sort of petulant crap is the cancer that has eaten the heart out of our club, and if the players are rebelling against Neeld it only shows that he is on the right track to breaking them of those sort of habits. It's time for them to grow up, appreciate the privileged lives they have been given and do something to show that they are worthy of the time and money the AFL and the club have put into them.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Once again we are seeing a lot of people blaming the coach for things that should be squarely on the players.

"He's lost the players" "They don't play for him" Utter BS. They are professionals. They are paid a huge amount of money to do what the coach says. If they can't or won't do that, then it is THEIR lack of professionalism that is to blame, not the coach. He was brought into the club to bring a greater level of professionalism and has been pruning out the players who couldn't handle being told that they weren't up to scratch ever since. If a few more have to go before the message sinks in then so be it.

"The gameplan doesn't work" Again, utter BS. Casey are playing the same gameplan and are one of the top sides in the VFL. The difference is that their players EXECUTE the gameplan, while the majority of the senior side are either unable or unwilling to do so. Again, this is a fault of the playing group who need to work harder on their skills and execution. As Dawes said, the coach shouldn't be wasting time teaching his players how to put in.

"He can't develop players" Once again, UTTER BS. With a couple of exceptions the ONLY players on our list who are showing improvement are the ones Neeld has brought into the side. Taggert is showing us some good signs after a lot of injury issues last year, Viney and Toumpas are both going well and Jones and Terlich are flying. All players who were not tainted by previous coaches. If the senior players are refusing to "buy in" and are also showing less or no improvement, this is a massive indictment on THEM, not on the coach who is trying to salvage their club and in many cases their careers.

The common denominator in our poor performance from well before Neeld's arrival is the poor effort of the playing group. We've all heard the stories of players deciding not to show for training, or the leadership group overruling the coach and refusing to do a time trial. That sort of petulant crap is the cancer that has eaten the heart out of our club, and if the players are rebelling against Neeld it only shows that he is on the right track to breaking them of those sort of habits. It's time for them to grow up, appreciate the privileged lives they have been given and do something to show that they are worthy of the time and money the AFL and the club have put into them.

RM, firstly let me say, I am not trying to buy into an argument here. However, let's just say, for the sake of the debate, your premise is the correct one.

What you put forward is a "mutiny" of sorts, propagated by a bunch of petulant kids. Yet, they are supposed to be professionals, most of whom have come through an elite under age competition, designed to not only hone their skills, but prepare them to enter the big time, AFL system. If you are correct and given the depths to which our performances have plummeted, then this is almost unprecedented - in fact unique.

At some point - at some stage through their journey from an elite, under age competition, to the ranks of professional senior AFL footballers, they are surely mentored, led by example, taught and inspired, at least to some extent.

I believe Neeld should go, only from the "business" perspective. I do not, for one minute think he is entirely to blame. But to suggest, conversely, that the blame for our horrendous performance rests solely with the playing group does not stand up to any fair scrutiny.

I am sorry, but while I respect your opinion, I just don't buy it. There is something far more seriously wrong in the footy club, than a bunch of recalcitrant young footballers, spitting their collective dummies.

[pm24 451]

I, for one, didn't expect it to happen "straight away", but I did expect to see incremental improvement. Not go into reverse at a great rate of knots. I think that is a reasonable expectation for any paid up member.

As a paid up member (not sure why I'm bolding this, or why you did, but just thought I'd join the fun) I also expected to see some incremental improvement, but when you consider that we have lost our most experienced back (rivers), midfielder(moloney) and forward (green) during one offseason, and brought in a few more younger players, I think the fact that we are struggling more makes a sense. Not to mention that we have been without some of our leaders in recent weeks (Grimes and Clark) and the hardened body of Sylvia.

Look what happened to the bulldogs once they lost Hall, Johnson and now Lake. Their backline and forward structure are weak, they're just fortunate to have an experienced and strong core of midfield leaders.

Maybe I was naïve to expect more improvements given we lost experienced and important players and just got caught up in the unrealistic hope that is generated in the preseason. Just maybe, my expectations were beyond realistic.

Changes were bound to happen with the free agency era coming in. It's unfortunate that we missed out on Young, Wellingham and Ray. But if we had managed to get one or two of them, I believe that we'd be much better placed. But it didn't happen, and it left us more inexperienced than we already were.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

As a paid up member (not sure why I'm bolding this, or why you did, but just thought I'd join the fun) I also expected to see some incremental improvement, but when you consider that we have lost our most experienced back (rivers), midfielder(moloney) and forward (green) during one offseason, and brought in a few more younger players, I think the fact that we are struggling more makes a sense. Not to mention that we have been without some of our leaders in recent weeks (Grimes and Clark) and the hardened body of Sylvia.

Look what happened to the bulldogs once they lost Hall, Johnson and now Lake. Their backline and forward structure are weak, they're just fortunate to have an experienced and strong core of midfield leaders.

Maybe I was naïve to expect more improvements given we lost experienced and important players and just got caught up in the unrealistic hope that is generated in the preseason. Just maybe, my expectations were beyond realistic.

Changes were bound to happen with the free agency era coming in. It's unfortunate that we missed out on Young, Wellingham and Ray. But if we had managed to get one or two of them, I believe that we'd be much better placed. But it didn't happen, and it left us more inexperienced than we already were.

PM, I bolded it because being paid up means we are stakeholders with a right of interest. Along with that comes expectation. I agree, some expectations are inflated beyond reasonable, but that does not diminish the fact that stakeholders have a right to expect value for their money - at least at some point in the not too distant future.

[Scoop Junior 3,106]

Once again we are seeing a lot of people blaming the coach for things that should be squarely on the players.

"He's lost the players" "They don't play for him" Utter BS. They are professionals. They are paid a huge amount of money to do what the coach says.

Footballers aren't robots. They are ordinary people who will respond to different coaches in the same way people at work respond to different bosses. Why are Fremantle a much harder working team under Lyon than they were under Harvey? The playing group is largely the same but Lyon has been able to extract more out of them and get them believing in him and his methods.

"The gameplan doesn't work" Again, utter BS.

I cannot comprehend how any one who has watched us this year can honestly say that our game plan is working. One of the coach's most important objectives is to instil the belief and confidence in the players that the way he wants them to play is the right way and that it works. At the moment I've never seen a team as lost defensively as Melbourne. Our guys don't know where to run, they block irrelevant space, they allow chain after chain of uncontested possession, they don't tackle enough (because they are caught out of position) and they have no idea how to maintain defensive pressure on an opposition.

Of course the game plan might work "in theory" but Neeld has shown no ability to get his players to implement it properly.

"He can't develop players" Once again, UTTER BS. With a couple of exceptions the ONLY players on our list who are showing improvement are the ones Neeld has brought into the side. Taggert is showing us some good signs after a lot of injury issues last year, Viney and Toumpas are both going well and Jones and Terlich are flying. All players who were not tainted by previous coaches. If the senior players are refusing to "buy in" and are also showing less or no improvement, this is a massive indictment on THEM, not on the coach who is trying to salvage their club and in many cases their careers.

Jones, Viney, Toumpas and Terlich are in their first years at the club, so how can you rate their improvement / development and Neeld's influence on them?

What about the lack of development of Watts, Trengove, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott and Bail?

The common denominator in our poor performance from well before Neeld's arrival is the poor effort of the playing group. We've all heard the stories of players deciding not to show for training, or the leadership group overruling the coach and refusing to do a time trial. That sort of petulant crap is the cancer that has eaten the heart out of our club, and if the players are rebelling against Neeld it only shows that he is on the right track to breaking them of those sort of habits. It's time for them to grow up, appreciate the privileged lives they have been given and do something to show that they are worthy of the time and money the AFL and the club have put into them.

No one is saying it's just Neeld. But at the same time I think Neeld is a part of the problem. This is currently THE WORST footy I've ever seen Melbourne play. No one is expecting miracles, but we are not expecting to witness the absolutely dire performances that we've seen this year.

Put simply, it appears that the players have absolutely no belief in the message and what they're doing out on the field, and Neeld must be responsible for this. It is the coach's job to get the players performing as a team and at the moment we are a disorganised rabble disguised as a professional football team.

Changing the culture and producing reaonsable performances are not mutually exlcusive. I can't accept as justification for keeping Neeld that he is changing the culture, as I'm sure another coach could also try to change the culture but at the same time not produce what's bordering on unwatchable performances.

[PaulRB 6,085]

Interesting that we'll give a new player with no prior experience at AFL several years to acclimatise to the intensity, demands and performance level required in the AFL. But upon recruiting a new senior coach with no senior coaching experience we expect him to faultlessly and rapidly regenerate the playing list and improve the performance in less than 18 months.

If you hire a person who hasn't done that job at that level before you need to include an allowance (time and support) for the fact that they will make mistakes, learn and the performance of the team won't follow a predictable straight line graph ("incremental improvement").

On the upside, you might hire someone who, when they hit their strides and have had time to craft and drill the team that they have selected, might win you a flag.

I still believe Mark Neeld could be this person. I have less faith in the MFC to stick with ANY decision and plan they've made when events go against us and the media circus cranks up against us... and that's what makes us a weak club.

Edited May 30, 2013 by PaulRB

[RalphiusMaximus 6,000]

Put simply, it appears that the players have absolutely no belief in the message and what they're doing out on the field, and Neeld must be responsible for this. It is the coach's job to get the players performing as a team and at the moment we are a disorganised rabble disguised as a professional football team.

I'll just focus on this bit for a moment.

Now this may seem a bit of a tangent, but My boss is an idiot. Not just an idiot, but a prize-winning grade A moron. She was promoted into her current managerial role solely on the basis of seniority, having been in the same workplace for 30-odd years. I've worked with her for several years prior to her promotion, and I knew just how much of an idiot she was when she put her name up for the promotion. I assumed that the PTB would know as well as I did that she is a terrible choice for the job. Sadly, they didn't. Now, I know this woman is a moron. I know that she has absolutely no idea of what her underlings actually do as she hasn't left her cubby in years prior to her promotion and rarely leaves her office now. It is safe to say that I disagree with 99% of what she does, and she can not be reasoned with. That being said, I am a professional. I am very very good at what I do, and take pride in my work. As a professional, I accept that if this is the policy we have to work with, I have to make it work to the best of my ability regardless of what I think of it. I freely admit that I am counting the days until The Boss's contract expires in the hopes that she will be replaced, but while she is in charge I am going to do everything in my power to make things work, because I am a professional and that is my job.

This is a simple enough situation. As you have stated above, I have no faith whatsoever in this person. I think it was a terrible decision to give her the job and I am counting the days until she is gone. But I still give it 100%. If I can do that, why can't these players who are paid six figure salaries for playing a game they love to play do the same? There's no great secret to improving a team's performance. It takes hard work, goalsetting and application. This is something you can do whether you like your coach or not, whether you believe in the gameplan or not. You can only control what you do, and if you put in 100% every time you walk on to the field then things will improve. I hear people saying they want to play finals. Simple solution, play better. If Jack Watts pulls his finger out, commits to being a player and gives 100% every time he's on the field, he not only provides the team with a much better player in one spot, but he gives an example to others. Maybe a couple of flagging teammates say "hell, if he can do that I can too!"

I've been saying for years that our team looked like an unprofessional rabble when they trained. I was thrilled when Neeld came in and promised that no matter what, he would have a professional team who were doing the right things off field. What I see at the club now is the last remnants of that cancerous unprofessional attitude fighting to stay alive. Whether it is killed by the players in question pulling their heads out of their collective ass and getting on with things, or by them being moved on, I think that is is the right way to go. If we are to compete we need to be professional, and if the players had any idea what that meant we would not be losing so badly. I'll take the short-term pain happily for that to happen. Look at my comments in some of the new coach threads. Same theme. Get someone who will set new standards of professionalism. I couldn't care less about the gameplan. They change every few years anyway. Give me players who understand what they need to do to be the best and I'll be happy.

[pm24 451]

PM, I bolded it because being paid up means we are stakeholders with a right of interest. Along with that comes expectation. I agree, some expectations are inflated beyond reasonable, but that does not diminish the fact that stakeholders have a right to expect value for their money - at least at some point in the not too distant future.

It depends on what you are investing in as a stakeholder, and what returns you expect and when you expect to see them. For me, I've seriously thought about whether I renew for another year in 2014, but that thought doesn't last long because in the end I support this club. The thought to not renew was purely an emotive response, which I generally consider to be the worst way to make decisions.

When Neeld was appointed I thought it was a great move because he straight away provided his vision for the team, and laid out what was going to be expected. To me, this indicated someone with a plan. I also knew that it would take time, and when I look at our list, as I've said in other threads, it is obvious we are in a massive rebuilding process with a very inexperienced list. I can't in one moment say "things need to change" and that some players need to go even if they are experienced, and then demand instant success when we are left with an inexperienced list. Did I think we were so far back from the pack that it would take this long? No. But can I understand why it is? Yes.

The reasons I still believe we are on the right track is because the list decisions that have been made make a lot of sense to me. I'll outline my thinking.

Pre Neeld we relied on a forward line with Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, Bate, Miller, and Dunn. We did not have a strong goal kicking marking option in the forward line.

Neeld has since recruited Mitch Clark, Chris Dawes, Cameron Pederson, and brought in young Hulk Hogan to give us more depth at this position then we have had in a LONG time.

Pre Neeld we relied on a midfield led by Moloney, McDonald, Bruce, Jones, Morton, and the newly acquired Scully and Trengove.

We then lost McDonald (big mistake by the Bailey group IMO), Bruce (was on his last legs) and now Moloney and Morton. Morton was going nowhere and after some of the things that have been said about Moloney, I'm glad he's no longer at the club. Scully obviously took the money.

Neeld knew we lacked leadership in the middle, and hard bodies, so he went out and firstly grabbed Magner and Couch for the rookie list, who provided relief for the younger bodies, and has now brought in Rodan and Byrnes to help provide leadership and benefit the culture of the club, and help develop our young midfield list. Neeld and co also actively pursued Wellingham, Young, and Ray. Unfortunately none took up the offer, but I reckon Farren Ray might be thinking he should have. This again showed an intent by Neeld to fill the wholes on our list as best he could. They are already saying that the midfield will be a priority in the next offseason.

The backline is the only area where I believe little work has been required, however the loss of Bartram has hurt us defensively, but I believe that players like Strauss and Terlich (a Neeld recruit) can help address that in the future.

All in all, I have seen a pattern where the club has actively identified areas of weakness on the list and recruited for those purposes. I believe we have a more well rounded list than we had the previous season, though it is less experienced. I think the pathway that is being taken is a positive one, and that in another year or two, we'll start seeing the results. .

[Soidee 1,496]

It depends on what you are investing in as a stakeholder, and what returns you expect and when you expect to see them. For me, I've seriously thought about whether I renew for another year in 2014, but that thought doesn't last long because in the end I support this club. The thought to not renew was purely an emotive response, which I generally consider to be the worst way to make decisions.

When Neeld was appointed I thought it was a great move because he straight away provided his vision for the team, and laid out what was going to be expected. To me, this indicated someone with a plan. I also knew that it would take time, and when I look at our list, as I've said in other threads, it is obvious we are in a massive rebuilding process with a very inexperienced list. I can't in one moment say "things need to change" and that some players need to go even if they are experienced, and then demand instant success when we are left with an inexperienced list. Did I think we were so far back from the pack that it would take this long? No. But can I understand why it is? Yes.

The reasons I still believe we are on the right track is because the list decisions that have been made make a lot of sense to me. I'll outline my thinking.

Pre Neeld we relied on a forward line with Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, Bate, Miller, and Dunn. We did not have a strong goal kicking marking option in the forward line.

Neeld has since recruited Mitch Clark, Chris Dawes, Cameron Pederson, and brought in young Hulk Hogan to give us more depth at this position then we have had in a LONG time.

Pre Neeld we relied on a midfield led by Moloney, McDonald, Bruce, Jones, Morton, and the newly acquired Scully and Trengove.

We then lost McDonald (big mistake by the Bailey group IMO), Bruce (was on his last legs) and now Moloney and Morton. Morton was going nowhere and after some of the things that have been said about Moloney, I'm glad he's no longer at the club. Scully obviously took the money.

Neeld knew we lacked leadership in the middle, and hard bodies, so he went out and firstly grabbed Magner and Couch for the rookie list, who provided relief for the younger bodies, and has now brought in Rodan and Byrnes to help provide leadership and benefit the culture of the club, and help develop our young midfield list. Neeld and co also actively pursued Wellingham, Young, and Ray. Unfortunately none took up the offer, but I reckon Farren Ray might be thinking he should have. This again showed an intent by Neeld to fill the wholes on our list as best he could. They are already saying that the midfield will be a priority in the next offseason.

The backline is the only area where I believe little work has been required, however the loss of Bartram has hurt us defensively, but I believe that players like Strauss and Terlich (a Neeld recruit) can help address that in the future.

All in all, I have seen a pattern where the club has actively identified areas of weakness on the list and recruited for those purposes. I believe we have a more well rounded list than we had the previous season, though it is less experienced. I think the pathway that is being taken is a positive one, and that in another year or two, we'll start seeing the results. .

Thanks Mark Neeld, I am sure you are your own best supporter.

[pm24 451]

Thanks Mark Neeld, I am sure you are your own best supporter.

LOL

[RalphiusMaximus 6,000]

PM24, I LOVE that post. It so clearly outlines the things this coaching group has been doing. I am 100% in agreement with everything you have said in there.

Not the LOL, btw. The post before that.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Pennant st dee, your opinions have also proven to be failures.

Jurrah, if managed correctly, would be the biggest star in the land right now.

just another attitude of nil responsibility...

this is why we ended up in a mess of a list after danners window... players with Nil responsibility, whilst other designated workers pulled the heavy load.

no more royal bludgers with their trains carried downback.

[dee-luded 2,958]

No worries, probably part of my up bringing and my sporting abilities all effort and no skill, but guys like LJ, Watts, Dayle Garlett, Mcdougall, Morton and others annoy the hell out of me. I know it takes all types and I'm biased but I'll go for guys with mongrel, high work rate and intensity over skill every time.

I have always loved players like Todd Viney, Jimmy, Woey, Archer, Riccuito, Jude Bolton, Mitchell, Sewell, and now J.Selwood, Jack & Hannaberry

totally PSD

[angrydee 842]

Thanks Mark Neeld, I am sure you are your own best supporter.

No. He's not the inept one. At least Neeld doesn't write a book to say what can be said in a para. He's not verbose - just can't communicate or coach

[dee-luded 2,958]

Have a look over at 'Ology ...

http://demonology.midnight.net.au/

the post-bump of the century:

TGR -- Remember this? Has anything changed?

sigh...

well done frankie_d... nice get.