On 01/05/2013 at 14:14, stuie said:

You're missing my point AGAIN.

I'm not saying all the players picked up by other clubs went on to improve, I'm saying there's a perception around other clubs that our struggling players may do better in a different culture and coaching setup. There was actually an article about it recently, having trouble finding the link, will post when I do.

Please do. Because I'm struggling to find this perception when the actual amount of people drafted is incredibly small (see the 15 out of 104 over 12 years).

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:14, stuie said:

You're missing my point AGAIN.

I'm not saying all the players picked up by other clubs went on to improve, I'm saying there's a perception around other clubs that our struggling players may do better in a different culture and coaching setup. There was actually an article about it recently, having trouble finding the link, will post when I do.

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:20, PJ_12345 said:

Please do. Because I'm struggling to find this perception when the actual amount of people drafted is incredibly small (see the 15 out of 104 over 12 years).

Please also remember your original statement was a little bit more substantiated than just a perception:

"so many were picked up because it's a known fact in AFL circles that most MFC players don't reach their potential"

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:20, PJ_12345 said:

Please do. Because I'm struggling to find this perception when the actual amount of people drafted is incredibly small (see the 15 out of 104 over 12 years).

Can't find the exact article, pretty sure it was in the Herald Sun, but these two touch on it:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/teams/rivals-turn-attention-to-melbourne-talents-jack-watts-and-colin-sylvia/story-e6frf9mf-1226617677001

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-04-30/exdemons-prospering

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:27, PJ_12345 said:

Please also remember your original statement was a little bit more substantiated than just a perception:

"so many were picked up because it's a known fact in AFL circles that most MFC players don't reach their potential"

Yeah fair call, I probably pushed that a bit hard, should have said IMO there's a perception around that.... etc

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:02, stuie said:

My short answer is, I don't think Neeld is necessarily a bad coach, he's just not good enough to turn us around in ANY amount of time.

We are WORSE this year than last. If his plan was working surely we would have been better this year, even just slightly, but we are worse or as bad in every category.

Last year he had a team that had been playing together badly for some time but new each other's limitations and strengths... now we have had what, 14(?) changes to the list, so we are starting from a lower base than last year... I was hoping in my heart that we would see a immediate improvement, but in my head I think I always believed that we would struggle; so it's probably no surprise we went backwards. At the end of this season, I think that we probably need to add just 3 of the right free agents (two mids and a back) to the list to be genuinely competitive.

That's just my take on it.

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:33, hardtack said:

Last year he had a team that had been playing together badly for some time but new each other's limitations and strengths... now we have had what, 14(?) changes to the list, so we are starting from a lower base than last year... I was hoping in my heart that we would see a immediate improvement, but in my head I think I always believed that we would struggle; so it's probably no surprise we went backwards. At the end of this season, I think that we probably need to add just 3 of the right free agents (two mids and a back) to the list to be genuinely competitive.

That's just my take on it.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion, just differs a bit to mine. I would expect improvement once we pick up some top mids of varied ages, but I just can't see Neeld taking it all to the next level. I want him to coach til near the end of the season though, just to see what happens, I'm not calling for his immediate sacking like some, but if we still suck this bad by about round 18 then he needs to go so we can get a head start on a coach for next year.

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:33, stuie said:

Yeah fair call, I probably pushed that a bit hard, should have said IMO there's a perception around that.... etc

And I probably went a bit overboard with the stats but good convo and interesting read.

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:49, PJ_12345 said:

And I probably went a bit overboard with the stats but good convo and interesting read.

Nah that was good, I respect posters who back up their posts/opinions with facts and stats, well done.

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:37, stuie said:

but if we still suck this bad by about round 18 then he needs to go so we can get a head start on a coach for next year.

I rarely agree with you Stuie, but I agree with that - as I imagine, would pretty well everyone on here as well as those connected with the club. We definitely need to see some improvement in the not-too-distant future, though I'd probably go for Round 19 as the cut-off: GWS in Sydney.

On the other hand, I would say that the "suck this badly" part is difficult to quantify, because in spite of everything, it's still early days and we've seem some wildly variable performances. It's very difficult to get a real handle either on where we are, or where other teams are. Who would have ever imagined Port and Essendon lossless, and Adelaide, WCE and even Brisbane struggling. Even with us, there has been some wrist-slashing here about being beaten by a team with some kids in it last weekend, but the headlines prior to that weren't about Melbourne and Neeld, they were all about Brisbane and Voss, whose season after their NAB cup win has been in its own way, more of a fail than ours. That was a must-win game for them - not to excuse our deficiencies in any way either.

We now have an interesting run of 3 games, Carlton, GC and Richmond at the MCG, where we need to start to be competitive (at least) for the majority of the game (at least). Wins I'm not sure about, as our big problem is in the mids, and those 3 teams have amongst the best midfields in the comp. Hard to see that we'll be getting (m)any coach-saving victories until after the Bye, but at least we'll have a bit better idea of where we're at.

So if we look at Round 18/19 as some kind of cut-off for Neeld and the FD, it's probably going to come down to that post-bye run of St Kilda, Bulldogs and Lions, perhaps North. We'd really need to start seeing some results there to have the real evidence of progress and improvement that we all need.

But ... going to be a rough ride in the short term I suspect.

  On 01/05/2013 at 14:16, rjay said:

Maybe we are, my bet is with you 'Rhino' that we're not; Carlton, Essendon and Freo certainly were way before anything was known and while the incumbent was busy doing the job he was paid for.

The best thing that's happened this year so far is the change of CEO, other things will start to move from here on. We had been re building on a failed rebuild that was dubious from the start, now we might get some clean air and start moving forward. There will be changes over the next couple of months, whether or not it's the coach who really knows...but 'Satyriconhome' I wouldn't be getting too close to some around HQ, like your other mate a few of them are on the way out.

You don't get close to people, you support them at this time, because they are at the Club trying to do their best, something other posters on here should remember occasionally, offering nothing but constant criticism

Must be quite easy to just sit on the sidelines doing nothing but carping

If anyone's interested, my column this week looks at Neeld and Hinkley. I think Neeld is on borrowed time.

http://backpagelead.com.au/afl/9305-no-limits-port-a-model-lesson-for-dees

Cheers

  On 01/05/2013 at 12:43, Pipefitter said:

I worry about who else will leave this year with FA. There's no end in sight to this on field nightmare. Why would anyone want to stay?

Neeld has taken a club on its knees and buried it.

Do you worry do you?

Do you know that it takes 8 years to qualify for Restricted FA and 10 years to qualify for Unrestricted FA?

And that the only players eligible are Davey and Sylvia?

Are you still worried?

Oh, you are?

Because you are grandstanding?

  On 01/05/2013 at 23:13, wmth said:

If anyone's interested, my column this week looks at Neeld and Hinkley. I think Neeld is on borrowed time.

http://backpagelead.com.au/afl/9305-no-limits-port-a-model-lesson-for-dees

Cheers

Yes well, an opinion piece, let's see what happens if now Port suddenly lose six on the trot as Essendon did last year after a flying start, must be nice having an easy target to shoot at

  On 01/05/2013 at 23:13, wmth said:

If anyone's interested, my column this week looks at Neeld and Hinkley. I think Neeld is on borrowed time.

http://backpagelead.com.au/afl/9305-no-limits-port-a-model-lesson-for-dees

Cheers

The last paragraph of this article is spot on - it's certainly true that things can turnaround rapidly in this game we all love.

We probably all recall July 1965 and how quickly fortunes changed for the MFC then....

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Lets all say it together

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

There's every chance he'll be gone when Carlton beat us by 150 points at our ground.

  On 01/05/2013 at 23:58, Roost It said:

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Lets all say it together

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

It's potentially A grade, but they're certainly responding to Hinkley, whereas they won only 5 games last year.

Let's say it again:

Port's players are playing for their coach.

This morning on SEN James Kelly said that out of all his former assistant coaches he'd choose Hinkley as the man to win one important game. And he did so, because he thought he was best at knowing the players individually and getting the most out of them on game day.

Hmm. What a novel idea. Have the players busting a gut for their coach.

  On 01/05/2013 at 23:58, Roost It said:

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Lets all say it together

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

Hinkley as an A grade midfield at his disposal. Neeld does not

If that's the case, then why has Neeld used 3 first round draft picks to secure key position forwards?

  On 02/05/2013 at 00:04, Roost It said:

There's every chance he'll be gone when Carlton beat us by 150 points at our ground.

I hope you have your tongue in cheek, there are enough 'supporters' on this board hoping THEIR team loses really badly at the weekend so they will get their wish, that is just bloody sad

Mark Neeld was an assistant at Collingwood, these are some of the duds he coached, Nick Maxwell, Harry O'Brien, Heath Shaw when defensive coach, Dane Swan, Scott Pendlebury, Dale Thomas, when he was midfield coach, let's get a "James Kelly" quote from them.

Everything turns quickly, Michael Voss was a genius coach in NAB Cup and his job was on the line five weeks later

Sanderson at Adelaide was flavour of the month last year, what now for them?

  On 02/05/2013 at 00:11, Satyriconhome said:

Mark Neeld was an assistant at Collingwood, these are some of the duds he coached, Nick Maxwell, Harry O'Brien, Heath Shaw when defensive coach, Dane Swan, Scott Pendlebury, Dale Thomas, when he was midfield coach, let's get a "James Kelly" quote from them.

Everything turns quickly, Michael Voss was a genius coach in NAB Cup and his job was on the line five weeks later

Sanderson at Adelaide was flavour of the month last year, what now for them?

Do you feel some sort of moral obligation to trawl through threads on Demonland all day and stick up for the club when anyone has anything remotley negative to say?

  On 01/05/2013 at 23:28, Satyriconhome said:

Yes well, an opinion piece, let's see what happens if now Port suddenly lose six on the trot as Essendon did last year after a flying start, must be nice having an easy target to shoot at

All coaches are easy targets when they lose. There is a clear difference in style between other coaches - I just don't see his comments building any confidence among supporters or players.

The way Melbourne lose is opening up Neeld to criticism. It's positioning, run etc more so than skill.

  On 02/05/2013 at 00:06, Ben-Hur said:

It's potentially A grade, but they're certainly responding to Hinkley, whereas they won only 5 games last year.

Let's say it again:

Port's players are playing for their coach.

This morning on SEN James Kelly said that out of all his former assistant coaches he'd choose Hinkley as the man to win one important game. And he did so, because he thought he was best at knowing the players individually and getting the most out of them on game day.

Hmm. What a novel idea. Have the players busting a gut for their coach.

I'm not backing Neeld. I'm simply saying Ron Barassi at his best couldn't get our midfield to perform. You may be correct that he has lost the players. I'm going to give him a little longer to show something.I know several Ocean Grove players who hold him in the highest respect and think he was a great coach. That may meen something or nothing. I've jumped the gun on several issues regarding this club over the last few years so i've decided to give Neeld some extra time. Who coaches us if we sack Neeld? Who pays him out? I think the club has to play this very carefully.

  On 02/05/2013 at 00:16, DemonWA said:

Do you feel some sort of moral obligation to trawl through threads on Demonland all day and stick up for the club when anyone has anything remotley negative to say?

I am not sticking up for the Club, I just don't like one sidedness, quite easy to do for lazy posters, it was just a question, obviously you don't have anything valid to say in reply as you just took the easy route and criticised me, proves my point really doesn't it

Also is there anything wrong with sticking up for the Club I support anyway, er must be, the majority of supporters posters on this topic seem to be just critical

  On 01/05/2013 at 23:28, Satyriconhome said:

Yes well, an opinion piece, let's see what happens if now Port suddenly lose six on the trot as Essendon did last year after a flying start, must be nice having an easy target to shoot at

In part I agree with you on this. It is easy to talk things up when you are winning (I wish we had this problem) but we will really get to know Hinkley when things are not going quite as well or take a bad turn. We will get a better read on Sanderson this year for this reason.