sounds like the 'it' you are referring to is everybody's DESPERATE need to believe that this time we are actually building something real. There is pretty much zero evidence that this is occurring. I'm not saying I don't have faith in it, but to talk about it as if we have already done something is just plain silly. Let's say things go well this year and we finish on 8.5 wins. The exact same people who are acting like they knew 2010 was a false dawn will be pumping us up exactly the same way. Then in 2 years if we are back down the bottom they will be singing the i-knew-2012-was-a-false-dawn tune. It's all fairly embarrassing really.

Which is it? If there is zero evidence, then what is it you have faith in?

If we get 8.5 wins next year it will be with a far better prepared and far better side than we had then. That's not to say we are on track to win a flag, Neeld has said there are still holes and that we are a long way off and I respect that, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

If you think that the future of the club is just getting games and age in to the players then you are mistaken; they need toughness and ability. Oh! and they need a coach who knows what's required to play the modern game of football.

Which is it? If there is zero evidence, then what is it you have faith in?

If we get 8.5 wins next year it will be with a far better prepared and far better side than we had then. That's not to say we are on track to win a flag, Neeld has said there are still holes and that we are a long way off and I respect that, he's not trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

If you think that the future of the club is just getting games and age in to the players then you are mistaken; they need toughness and ability. Oh! and they need a coach who knows what's required to play the modern game of football.

If it was RobbieF we would be in the top 4 in 2013.

Bailey spent 4 years getting games into players and look where that led!

Absolutely this.

Even the blue-chip youngsters take a couple of seasons to really hit their straps.

The biggest mistake some supporters will make - especially this time of year - is expecting our stale midfield to transform into a well-oiled machine in one pre-season.

Expect improvement. Don't expect miracles.

In: Rodan, Byrnes

Out: Moloney, Gysberts

On top of this we will have fitter players more attuned to the game style. Whilst it may not result in a well-oiled midfield, I doubt there's any chance there will not be improvement.

These new recruits will impact next season. Viney's already had a year in the system and Toumpas is all class.

In: Rodan, Byrnes

Out: Moloney, Gysberts

On top of this we will have fitter players more attuned to the game style. Whilst it may not result in a well-oiled midfield, I doubt there's any chance there will not be improvement.

These new recruits will impact next season. Viney's already had a year in the system and Toumpas is all class.

While I agree with your basic premise McQueen Roden and Byrnes are a bit of a gamble. Neither player was setting the world on fire at their respective clubs.

Lets hope they are inspired selections

While I agree with your basic premise McQueen Roden and Byrnes are a bit of a gamble. Neither player was setting the world on fire at their respective clubs.

Lets hope they are inspired selections

I would hope that we would get more out of Rodan & Byrnes than Moloney & Gysbert.

If not the whole change over will be a disaster.

I am not trying to be hard to get along with billy but I don't see in the above where the wins above 8 are.

You are much more optimistic than me about 2013.

I just think we are coming from a long way back and it is going to take longer than you think.

You may be right but I just don't see it in 2013

All good Old! But, as I said, we should expect to win the 4 games against the franchise teams. That leaves us with a minimum of 4 for the remainder of the year. We nearly won more than that in 2009...

If we win less than 4 against the real teams in 2013, which will be on the back of 1 win against a real team (Essendon - debateable I know!) in 2012, it is not acceptable. I do think we can improve in certain areas to assist us winning more games next year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying finals are on the. But what has this Club come to that we can't see ourselves winning more than 4 games out of 18?

All good Old! But, as I said, we should expect to win the 4 games against the franchise teams. That leaves us with a minimum of 4 for the remainder of the year. We nearly won more than that in 2009...

If we win less than 4 against the real teams in 2013, which will be on the back of 1 win against a real team (Essendon - debateable I know!) in 2012, it is not acceptable. I do think we can improve in certain areas to assist us winning more games next year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying finals are on the. But what has this Club come to that we can't see ourselves winning more than 4 games out of 18?

What we have come to is:

The past 5 years have seen us get belted on a regular basis, finish in the bottom four 3 times and on the bottom twice.

Get beaten by 186 points in 2011 and be uncompetitive in 16 games in 2012.

And that is my point billy we are coming from a very long way back.

I will be very happy with 8 wins in 2013

Edited November 27, 201212 yr by old dee

I will not be happy with 8 wins next year. I concede it is a possibility, but it will be judged another fail in my eyes.

I will not be happy with 8 wins next year. I concede it is a possibility, but it will be judged another fail in my eyes.

Compare it to 4 this year and numerous belting's wyl

in 2012 we were uncompetitive in 80% of our games

If we win 8 and are competitive in the others It will IMO have been a good year by comparison.

We have a long climb ahead it will take a number of years to get into finals particularly the top 4.

2013 is the first step on a long journey

Compare it to 4 this year and numerous belting's wyl

in 2012 we were uncompetitive in 80% of our games

If we win 8 and are competitive in the others It will IMO have been a good year by comparison.

We have a long climb ahead it will take a number of years to get into finals particularly the top 4.

2013 is the first step on a long journey

considering what we have been sold since 2007 yes it will be an improvement, but still not good enough with the draw we have been given. 10 wins is my pass mark. The bottom line we should expect.

you mean the post that was so celebrated it was forever stickied to the top of the board? Yeah that was me

Yeah the one that was stickied by the biggest jerk ever to wear a moderators hat; that one.

considering what we have been sold since 2007 yes it will be an improvement, but still not good enough with the draw we have been given. 10 wins is my pass mark. The bottom line we should expect.

Not sure we are far apart wyl

IMO Injuries will be the difference between 8 and 10 wins

A good run and we could sneak 10

I think 10 wins is achievable, simply because the low of 2012 was exacerbated by so many factors that are unlikely to repeat in 2013 both off field and onfield.

In addition,

• Neeld has covered the holes in the structure (i.e. forward line),
  
• the players seem to be getting on top of the elite training load, and
  
• our crop of young talented players are starting to blossom (Watts, Blease, JT, Howe, Tapscott, etc...).
  

Finally we have injected 8 new players that are going to take 4 spots in the 22 while delisting 10 who were not taking spots.

Then there are the three top 10 draftees.

We all know it could all go pear shaped, but it could also rise like a phoenix. I choose to believe the latter.

Go Dees.

Edited November 27, 201212 yr by PaulRB

I think 10 wins is achievable, simply because the low of 2012 was exacerbated by so many factors that are unlikely to repeat in 2013 both off field and onfield.

In addition,

• Neeld has covered the holes in the structure (i.e. forward line),
  
• the players seem to be getting on top of the elite training load, and
  
• our crop of young talented players are starting to blossom (Watts, Blease, JT, Howe, Tapscott, etc...).
  

Finally we have injected 8 new players that are going to take 4 spots in the 22 while delisting 10 who were not taking spots.

Then there are the three top 10 draftees.

We all know it could all go pear shaped, but it could also rise like a phoenix. I choose to believe the latter.

Go Dees.

And may God give you more power PaulRB

Absolutely this.

Even the blue-chip youngsters take a couple of seasons to really hit their straps.

The biggest mistake some supporters will make - especially this time of year - is expecting our stale midfield to transform into a well-oiled machine in one pre-season.

Expect improvement. Don't expect miracles.

I'm not expecting miracles I'm expecting a big improvement though. Improvement doesn't always mean more wins either it can mean we get beat by Geelong in a close game at Skilled or get beat by 10 points or less in a game against Hawthorn. This is the type of improvement I'm expecting and if we can sneak in 8 or so wins that would be good too.

We have capitulated in game after game over the last 20 years and if we can stop that, if we can fight out every game to the finish, I'll be happy and convinced we've turned the corner.

I'm not expecting miracles I'm expecting a big improvement though. Improvement doesn't always mean more wins either it can mean we get beat by Geelong in a close game at Skilled or get beat by 10 points or less in a game against Hawthorn. This is the type of improvement I'm expecting and if we can sneak in 8 or so wins that would be good too.

We have capitulated in game after game over the last 20 years and if we can stop that, if we can fight out every game to the finish, I'll be happy and convinced we've turned the corner.

Exactly my opinion RobbieF

I will not be happy with 8 wins next year. I concede it is a possibility, but it will be judged another fail in my eyes.

I wont put a figure on what I would call a fail, (well within reason), other things need to be considered such as who steps up, injuries and can you see sustained improvement and the boys in games for greater length of time as well as an ability to run out games.

Lets say if we were to win 8 games, be in another 10 to 12 games for the majority of the game, were within 3 goals for all our losses and clear improvement and right direction obvious to all I think I would be ruing chances missed and calling it a Pass.

IMO there is evidence that we are on our way towards being the toughest team to play against, as the last season unfolded if you look at the intensity and endeavour of the team each round it improved. There were patches of intensity during each game when we had the measure of our opponents which they had no answer for. Later in the season the ability to continue grinding out a game when challenged was there just not consistently for the 4 quarters and not enough to maintain scoreboard pressure.Quite frankly our fitness let us down and the ability to maintain that type of pressure needs an (dare I say it) Elite fitness.

In regards to bruise free football I did not see any evidence of shirking a contest or only running hard in attack yes we did not win games but you wouldn't or couldn't say that in 2012 we played bruise free football.

IMO not winning games is a separate issue that does not relate to declaring the end of bruise free football....FWIW!

you mean the post that was so celebrated it was forever stickied to the top of the board? Yeah that was me

Ha ha thought so. The 'just get games into them' didn't quite work though!

I'm not expecting miracles I'm expecting a big improvement though. Improvement doesn't always mean more wins either it can mean we get beat by Geelong in a close game at Skilled or get beat by 10 points or less in a game against Hawthorn. This is the type of improvement I'm expecting and if we can sneak in 8 or so wins that would be good too.

We have capitulated in game after game over the last 20 years and if we can stop that, if we can fight out every game to the finish, I'll be happy and convinced we've turned the corner.

fair points RobbieF, just as long as we do not accept those close losses as good enough.

Like those 2 games against against the Filth in 2010 we should have won both but didn't & then were not fit enough to keep up that form.

22 hard rounds is what the side must be equipped for.

I will not be happy with 8 wins next year. I concede it is a possibility, but it will be judged another fail in my eyes.

The past two years we have had easy draws> Next year is the easiest. Of this years top 8 only Freo is played twice.

Possibility of blitzing it if things go right. Gotta start with a win in rd 1 the first since 2005!!!!!!

I wont put a figure on what I would call a fail, (well within reason), other things need to be considered such as who steps up, injuries and can you see sustained improvement and the boys in games for greater length of time as well as an ability to run out games.

Lets say if we were to win 8 games, be in another 10 to 12 games for the majority of the game, were within 3 goals for all our losses and clear improvement and right direction obvious to all I think I would be ruing chances missed and calling it a Pass.

still a fail mate. But if your scenario was to happen i would buy a membership for 2014.

I just believe we all must be harder on the whole club now.

All clubs carry injuries...

still a fail mate. But if your scenario was to happen i would buy a membership for 2014.

I just believe we all must be harder on the whole club now.

All clubs carry injuries...

Will agree to disagree WYL I think the baove scenario would have us happy if our big names went down and the youngers boys stepped up. Having said all this I really expect improvement and want 10 wins minimum but wanting and getting are two different things

firstly, i don't know how anyone can take even the slightest interest in what is being said about training/preseason, every single club every single year says the same rubbish.

When all (ALL!) the players come back having met their off-season targets for skinfolds, and the majority of players come back to set or equal PB's in the first 3k run ... these are not vague "training the house down" claims, they're tangible proof of the changes that the club (and its culture) is undergoing. Look at the average age of the team this year compared to last, not to mention the size, weight and experience of the players that have come in.

Will we win a premiership next year? Of course not. Will we win more than 8 games? We shall see ... but if we do, it'll be because of the changes that are happening now, in this off-season, brought about by Neeld, Craig, Misson and co.

Results on-field are the tip of an iceberg, much of which is off-field.

I cannot honestly remember a list so profoundly hardened up in one trade period as ours has been in 2012. I cant wait for 2013!

Could not agree more!