Keep Jamar. I am not sure how much trade value he has left to be honest (he is 28 yes?). Stef is unproven but could get something at the trade table. I reckon that with Gawn and Fitzpatrick waiting in the wings, we have a proven ruckman who can give those blokes a couple years of protection before they step up to first ruckman. Stef unfortunately hasn't really proven he can ruck an entire season (he rucked for those 7 odd games 2011, not an entire season).

Selective use of stats Poita.

Surely Rucks need to be judged on the HO stats?

Mark Jamark 2012 season: 14 games averaging 32.4 Hit Outs per game

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 14.2 Hit Outs per game

Not saying it would prove anything one way or the other, but would be good if we could get "hitouts to advantage" stats - unfortunately doesn't look like their available freely.

Lions showing interest in Stef?

Might as well write off 2013 for him then because according to plenty here he is unable to play a decent game without a full pre-season. And by the end of 2013 he will be out of contract...

So that explains it all.....never had a preseason.*

*re Morton

Is it possible that we could [censored] Stef off to Richmond? They are very light on for rucks at the moment - after trading Graham they only have Derickx, Maric and Vickery (more of a forward anyway).

Selective use of stats Poita.

Surely Rucks need to be judged on the HO stats?

Mark Jamark 2012 season: 14 games averaging 32.4 Hit Outs per game

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 14.2 Hit Outs per game

Its about getting the ball away from the bounce and contributing around the ground.Neither was achieved by Jamar this year It was painfull to watch him keep tapping the ball to his feet and how easily the opposition took it away No good hitting out if we lose possesion of the ball The thing that beat us all year was clearances

I actually think the most effective ruck at Melbourne is Clark, good in the air at the bounce and aggressive on the ground. Then Jamar who would have been working to instruction if he was putting it to his feet... Martin is not a great ruck nor reliable up forward...

If you like little taps backward to the advantage of the opposition midfielders, then Jamar is your man.

If you like a ruckman who isn't a witches hat and who actually contributes around the ground, then Martin is your man.

Mark Jamar 2012 season: 14 games averaging 8.3 disposals and 2.1 marks, plus 1 goal.

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 13.9 disposals and 4.4 marks, plus 7 goals.

Plus Jamar is three and a half years older than Martin and is clearly in a downwards spiral, both in terms of his body and his football nous.

I would trade Jamar to GWS for a low first round pick and run with Martin and Spencer next year, supported by Fitzpatrick and (hopefully) Gawn.

There ya go.

Is it possible that we could flog Stef off to Richmond? They are very light on for rucks at the moment - after trading Graham they only have Derickx, Maric and Vickery (more of a forward anyway).

What would they do with him? They'd be in exactly the same bind as we are with him; their first ruck is better than Martin and he makes a lousy forward.

What would they do with him? They'd be in exactly the same bind as we are with him; their first ruck is better than Martin and he makes a lousy forward.

Agree. Clearly, he needs to go to a club where he has a shot at being no 1 ruck. Otherwise it's just Groundhog Day for him.

So why would Brisbane be interested in him? Don't they have Leuenberger and another young guy?

Leuenberger and Billy Longer. Would have thought Martin would not be top of the heap there. Not a big heap, granted. Can't see him going, especially seeing he's studying law here.

We have to keep Martin, his value at the trade table wouldn't be overly great

and with a good year next year - it increases his value ten fold.

His upside is too great to let go for nothing - especially given his form in 2012 in the limited games he played,

was A LOT better than Jamar shown throughout the year.

Jamar is our only tradable ruckman, given that he has value and looks to be past his best.

Im not sure we can carry Jamar, Stef, Dawes and Clark all in the one side, unless Stef Martin goes down back,

I'd like to know where he sees himself playing.

Brisbane surely can't see him solely as a ruckman, so I'm not sure they can appeal to him anymore than we would be.

Jamar can ruck. Much better than Martin. So can Spencer. Gawn will probably end up being better than all of them.

Martin is a so so ruckman that is rubbish elsewhere. I hope he gets a chance to move clubs because he doesn't have a future at Melbourne.

Jamar can ruck. Much better than Martin. So can Spencer. Gawn will probably end up being better than all of them.

Martin is a so so ruckman that is rubbish elsewhere. I hope he gets a chance to move clubs because he doesn't have a future at Melbourne.

How many times can I register 'like this'?????

Jamar can ruck. Much better than Martin. So can Spencer. Gawn will probably end up being better than all of them.

Martin is a so so ruckman that is rubbish elsewhere. I hope he gets a chance to move clubs because he doesn't have a future at Melbourne.

Exactly. He's a big midfielder (that is poor by midfielder standards) who is an average ruck and can't mark. He's Paul Johnson with a big IQ.

Exactly. He's a big midfielder (that is poor by midfielder standards) who is an average ruck and can't mark. He's Paul Johnson with a big IQ.

Martin plays better when in the No1 Ruck. so, hypothetically, If we traded the Russian this year, we would get a good Pick to use how we chose.

We would then use Martin in the 2013 year, bringing him into form & Value, as we see how both Spencer & Gawn, come on from they're knees.

Next Year we could trade Martin, with hopefully a better value, as we weigh up our Ruck options, before drafting a new young ruck.

I'd like Grundy this year but it's not going to happen.

What would they do with him? They'd be in exactly the same bind as we are with him; their first ruck is better than Martin and he makes a lousy forward.

Hopefully they don't see it that way....

But they could look at him as a depth player, to bolster their stocks because if Maric goes down they are stuffed. His past in defence might appeal to them too considering they are still a bit light on for tall back options.

Exactly. He's a big midfielder (that is poor by midfielder standards) who is an average ruck and can't mark. He's Paul Johnson with a big IQ.

Martin averages twice as many marks as Jamar, so what does that say about Jamar if Martin can't mark?

While Jamar kills him for taps, he also kills most of his taps by dropping them to his feet. Lets face it, about all Jamar does well is tap it to his feet. Around the ground he's mostly useless.

One good season in his whole career and we think he's a trade untouchable? I'm not a great Martin fan, but neither do I think Jamar is our future. Which one has more trade value? Jamar.

Lets put Jack Viney at his feet, and problem solved.

Wish it were that easy PaulRB.

Agree, but I'm hoping one of Gawn, and Fitzy will put pressure on Jamar's spot this year, and trust that if the FD sign the Russian for three years they see value in that..

Plus, I don't think that Martin will be able to hold No# 1 ruck spot.

In the limited games Martin actually played, he shown that he could hold down Ruck.

Theres a reason sides are chasing Stef Martin, he has more upside than Maric had prior to his Richmond trade.

As for Jamar, he is completely uselss around the ground - we are playing a man down when he is out there,

its football, there is no reason to not want to kick the ball and if he had one, he shouldn't of being playing.

Jamar doesn't kick anymore and simply isn't even nearly up to standard around the ground.

Next year he will be even further limited when rucks aren't allowed to wrestle.

Hopefully Gawn can come on, because if we get rid of Martin, we are going to need a capable ruckman.

In the limited games Martin actually played, he shown that he could hold down Ruck.

Theres a reason sides are chasing Stef Martin, he has more upside than Maric had prior to his Richmond trade.

As for Jamar, he is completely uselss around the ground - we are playing a man down when he is out there,

its football, there is no reason to not want to kick the ball and if he had one, he shouldn't of being playing.

Jamar doesn't kick anymore and simply isn't even nearly up to standard around the ground.

Next year he will be even further limited when rucks aren't allowed to wrestle.

Hopefully Gawn can come on, because if we get rid of Martin, we are going to need a capable ruckman.

I think that there is a reason that he was given a three year contract. Clearly, Neeld, Craig and Misson believe that he still has a lot to offer.

I'm a fan of Jamar's ruck work and I don't agree with the assertion that we are playing with a man down. He is a good quality ruckman and that is what he is in the side for.

And the statement that he doesn't kick anymore isn't quite right. For what it's worth, his average kicks per game and his kick to handball ratio were far higher in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010.

Here's an interesting analysis of the 2011 ruckmen:

http://playerrater.com.au/news/statisticalanalysis

I'm trying to find a good analysis of the 2012 season. Jamar's average taps per game was up this year, though I would imagine he wasn't quite as efficient. But then, neither was the midfield he was rucking for.

Martin averages twice as many marks as Jamar, so what does that say about Jamar if Martin can't mark?

While Jamar kills him for taps, he also kills most of his taps by dropping them to his feet. Lets face it, about all Jamar does well is tap it to his feet. Around the ground he's mostly useless.

One good season in his whole career and we think he's a trade untouchable? I'm not a great Martin fan, but neither do I think Jamar is our future. Which one has more trade value? Jamar.

It's funny, I suggested at the end of 2011 we should trade one of Martin or Jamar because their respective trade values were at their peak and I was howled down.

I agree with you about Jamar, Martin has similar problems though. Both of them can be serviceable but neither of them are particularly very good and both are one dimensional without being particularly damaging. Having both on the list when you can get rid of one and address another area of deficiency is a no brainer.