if Geelong or Sydney had pick 4 of that draft I know who they would have chosen

And thats why some teams are perennial contenders, and we are Melbourne

  On 17/03/2014 at 02:59, autocol said:

You're right, though for my money Hodge isn't in the same league as Judd. Hawks would have an additional flag to their names if they'd had Judd throughout his prime. Hodge is a great, Judd is... better than great. (Though Hodge certainly strikes me as a better person, but judged solely on footballing ability and overall impact across their respective careers, Judd is streets ahead).

I tend to agree, though it is hard to gauge how much Hodges influence as a leader has positively impacted on the Hawks culture.

Hodge is as good Judd. They just do it differently.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:00, hogans_heroes said:

if Geelong or Sydney had pick 4 of that draft I know who they would have chosen

And thats why some teams are perennial contenders, and we are Melbourne

Roos was in charge when we picked Salem, your argument is void.

  On 17/03/2014 at 02:56, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Toumpas's pre-season form doesn't warrant him a game this week.

Rubbish, I thought he was good against the Tigers and good aganst the Cats. His delivery inside 50 has been outstanding. He has been a star in the training I have gone to and also showed a bit in the intraclub games. He has been in the top dozen players in this club during the preseason by any measure. His game against the Hawks was ordinary but he was not on his own there, they were unbelievable.

You need to pull your head in and have a listen to Roos speech at the season launch. If you are expecting BOG efforts by our first and second year players you will spend you spend you life a very disappointed person.

Good on Ollie Wines, I am happy for him and yep I would love to see him in the red and blue he is going to be a champion, but I am also happy to have the Toump at the Dees. I will support him and his mates above opposition players ever day.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:05, binman said:

I tend to agree, though it is hard to gauge how much Hodges influence as a leader has positively impacted on the Hawks culture.

Is it?

Two flags and on the verge of a third - it's not hard to see the influence he has on that club.

  On 16/03/2014 at 12:38, Lamashtu said:

Yet another reason to hate that flapwit Neeld. Not like we needed any. By god he made some mindnumbingly awful decisions.

... actually he has set us up to facilitate culture change. but most won't recognise this, as its not well understood.

he has helped to smash the old culture to pieces, & the remains mulch the new garden. the new crop is being tendered to by a new farmer, on the old substrate.

if the old wasn't turned over; I have No Doubt the New Farmer would not have come on board, to do the dirty work.

.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:05, binman said:

I tend to agree, though it is hard to gauge how much Hodges influence as a leader has positively impacted on the Hawks culture.

Hodge was winning Finals for Colac seniors when he was 15 years old. That's how influential the bloke is.

Born leader.

One of my favourite players.

Judd. Meh.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:14, stuie said:

Roos was in charge when we picked Salem, your argument is void.

...and your point is?

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:32, dee-luded said:

... actually he has set us up to facilitate culture change. but most won't recognise this, as its not well understood.

he has helped to smash the old culture to pieces, & the remains mulch the new garden. the new crop is being tendered to by a new farmer, on the old substrate.

if the old wasn't turned over; I have No Doubt the New Farmer would not have come on board, to do the dirty work.

.

WTF?! Yes he brought in fine players like Pedersen, Byrnes, and Rodan, and destroyed our confidence, all just so another coach could come in to rebuild it...

Drugs are bad mmmkay.

  On 16/03/2014 at 20:56, Biffen said:

Toumpas will be all right eventually but everything Neeld did has turned brown.

no, its starting to turn green early, before winter. but we have to get it thru the frosts, to get the growth of spring.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:11, why you little said:

Hodge is as good Judd. They just do it differently.

Agree the top 3 that year Hodge/Ball/Judd all were good choices, the right attitude & desire and promote good culture. All will retire as Premiership players and leaders

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:00, hogans_heroes said:

if Geelong or Sydney had pick 4 of that draft I know who they would have chosen

And thats why some teams are perennial contenders, and we are Melbourne

Do you ? Do you really ?

Sydney 2009 - first two picks Rohan and Jetta - hardly what you call in an under type footballers.

Same draft - Geelong picked up Daniel Menzel with their first pick ?

Interestingly - Rohan and Menzel went around about where they were expected to be taken - the BEST picks at the selection.

Yet they both missed ( like all others) on big bodied Nat Fyfe at no 20.

You seriously have no idea who they would have taken.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:34, rjay said:

...and your point is?

Seriously?

Read nutbean's post above.

Also, note that Salem is not a ready made crash bang in and under player like HH was suggesting Sydney would have drafted.

  On 17/03/2014 at 02:59, binman said:

I'll give this to you Hannibal. You're consistent. Why the need to be rude? I wasn't having a shot at you nor was i rude, yet you cannot resist being rude.

For what its worth i rate people who show a semblance of grace and capacity to engage in intelligent argument over narcissists who rely on simplistic, dismissive insults to make their points.

Have I ever told you the story about the scorpion and the frog ?

  On 17/03/2014 at 01:43, stuie said:

Ahh so it was Neeld that went around watching the young players/draftees all year and then selected the one that he (and every other recruiter at the time) thought was the best choice...

Clark and Dawes have nothing to do with drafting Toumpas, but you get points for totally digressing away from the actual subject.

I think he's saying that Neeld convinced Clark who was deadset on Freo, to change & come to Melbourne. as well as scwabs finances $$$$ to get the eyes rolling.

Neeld would have been the main deal for Dawes,,, who will be a good get, even if we payed the pies too much.

Toddy Viney, & his workers were the ones who would have been in charge of the under 18's kids... & Kelly O'Donnell, Pro scout.

.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:27, The Big Ticket said:

Is it?

Two flags and on the verge of a third - it's not hard to see the influence he has on that club.

Yeah i guess, though you can't put that all down to Hodge obviously and obviously Judd would have brought a lot to the team (though i suspect not the same level of leadership). Interesting debate though, made all the more interesting by the fact that Judd went 3 and Luke Ball went 2.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:34, rjay said:

...and your point is?

We could be making the same argument on Freeman and Sheed over Salem - both bigger bodied footballers.

We picked Salem because he was considered slightly in front.

Without the benefit of hindsight does anyone on here want to make the early call on why Salem over the other two.

It will be much easier to condemn the recruiters once we have seen them for a season or two. Make the call now !

  On 17/03/2014 at 02:31, nutbean said:

Whats your call on Josh Kelly ? Went number two but is perceived to be more outside than hard bodied, strong over the footy type. Would you have taken him at number two and if not who would have you taken ?

Also like to hear your thoughts on Salem who was also perceived as more outside - would you have taken him at nine and if not who would you have opted for.

I like him. He's more outside, but he also goes when he has to. He's got elite endurance, great skills and makes good decisions. A worthy pick 2. He wasn't what we needed, so getting Tyson was a good call, but unlike some others I really rate Kelly.

Salem is known for being hard at the footy. We won't see the same issues we see with Toumpas and Watts. Salem's biggest knock is not winning enough footy.

I have no problem with outside players, Robbie is my favourite footballer of all time and was as brave as they come, I just don't rate players who lack any physicality.

The footy world new after one year that Joel Selwood was going to be a star. They knew he'd be a mile better than that softy Gibbs.

History is repeating. I don't need another 5 years to know we stuffed up.

  On 17/03/2014 at 02:45, old dee said:

Mine boiled over years ago hh

I just roll with the blows these days

agree, after overheating the old oil so many times, it becomes thicker and doesn't pump thru as well.

taking it easy is way more peaceful.

.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:11, why you little said:

Hodge is as good Judd. They just do it differently.

hodge is, & has been over the journey, more effective than judd, just not in the first couple of years.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:41, binman said:

Yeah i guess, though you can't put that all down to Hodge obviously and obviously Judd would have brought a lot to the team (though i suspect not the same level of leadership). Interesting debate though, made all the more interesting by the fact that Judd went 3 and Luke Ball went 2.

I think Judd has fallen away quite quickly and I am an unabashed Hodge lover but over the course of the journey there is no comparison between Judd and Hodge. That is no disrespect to Hodge - that is just putting Judd in his rightful place. Ball should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the other two ( however Ball has been a bit like the Ox post knee ops - he never had the body that let him shine). The reason Judd went no 3 was solely because of his suspect shoulders.

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:49, dee-luded said:

hodge is, & has been over the journey, more effective than judd, just not in the first couple of years.

wow

  On 17/03/2014 at 03:38, stuie said:

Seriously?

Read nutbean's post above.

Also, note that Salem is not a ready made crash bang in and under player like HH was suggesting Sydney would have drafted....

...you seem to be making the same mistake others have and that is because Salem looks like Toumpas he plays like him. He doesn't, he is a hard in and under player who loves to tackle but who also has a great kick on him.