On 23/07/2012 at 01:17, old dee said:

Add Green as likely to fall on his own sword.

After hearing him talk about Bruce last week, and imploring Moloney to lift his game and to fight to get back into the seniors, it did sound as though Green was coming to terms with this being his last as well didn't it??

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:20, Oucher said:

After hearing him talk about Bruce last week, and imploring Moloney to lift his game and to fight to get back into the seniors, it did sound as though Green was coming to terms with this being his last as well didn't it??

I think Green will play on, he has put his body on his line, kicked some goals and made a contest, and encouraged others to work hard this year. It would be foolish to do a J Mac on him. Let the guy play out his career and retire on his own terms. His on the vet list anyway so isn't taking a space away from the main list.

He didn't even kick up a fuss over a 1 year contract, Brads always taken it under the chin.

Im going to suggest that this season is actually a blessing in disguise. If it werent for our ridiculous collection of injuries then we may have trundled along without getting to see the array ( or lack thereof ) of talent that we can bring to bear. weve played about 95% of those that could be or at least warranted a crack in some meagre way. Neeld and FD wil be better informed for the opportunity availed

I wonder if Sabco are coming on board with any sponsorship because theres some prettty big cleaning up coming htis way in Spring !!! lol

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:19, olisik said:

I dont think Couch should remain on the list. I have always had the feeling that he only got a shot because of his old man and that he knew Neeld on a more personal level. After seeing him run around for 2 weeks in our mid field and make barely any impact I cannot see how it would be worthwhile him keeping his spot.

Alot of you may dis-agree but at the end of the day, he is never going to be a premiership mid, and premiership mids is what we need to focus on.

That said I think Evans can develop into a premiership mid after watching him at Casey.

Didn't see a lot of our game v Port, but I thought Couch played pretty well against Freo, got a respectable number of possessions in his first game, but more importantly laid some very good tackles and pressured them constantly.

I think you are a bit misguided if you believe the only way he got onto our list was because of his old man being mates with Neeld.

Tom Couch begged for a chance to train in the preseason with the club... sure thats cos he knew Neeld from his time @ Collingwood, but once he got the chance it sounds like he worked his ass off from then till now to prove he was worthy of the spot. Pretty poor comment from you regarding Tom

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:24, olisik said:

I think Green will play on, he has put his body on his line, kicked some goals and made a contest, and encouraged others to work hard this year. It would be foolish to do a J Mac on him. Let the guy play out his career and retire on his own terms. His on the vet list anyway so isn't taking a space away from the main list.

He didn't even kick up a fuss over a 1 year contract, Brads always taken it under the chin.

Don't think people are saying that he will be forced to retire, more that he will come to the conclusion of his own accord that this year might be his last.... if he doesn't come to the same conclusion, it will be interesting to see what the club does do though. (given what happened with Bruce and JMac) and that regardless of who our leadership group has in it... the list is still very inexperienced.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:25, Oucher said:

Didn't see a lot of our game v Port, but I thought Couch played pretty well against Freo, got a respectable number of possessions in his first game, but more importantly laid some very good tackles and pressured them constantly.

I think you are a bit misguided if you believe the only way he got onto our list was because of his old man being mates with Neeld.

Tom Couch begged for a chance to train in the preseason with the club... sure thats cos he knew Neeld from his time @ Collingwood, but once he got the chance it sounds like he worked his ass off from then till now to prove he was worthy of the spot. Pretty poor comment from you regarding Tom

Meant no dis-respect, I just honestly don't think that he is up to AFL standard.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:33, olisik said:

Meant no dis-respect, I just honestly don't think that he is up to AFL standard.

Pies did not think so either.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:24, olisik said:

I think Green will play on, he has put his body on his line, kicked some goals and made a contest, and encouraged others to work hard this year. It would be foolish to do a J Mac on him. Let the guy play out his career and retire on his own terms. His on the vet list anyway so isn't taking a space away from the main list.

I think I read on here that Jamar and Rivers can go onto the vet list next year and come out of the salary cap. This will push Brad out. Would free up some cash for us to go really hard after a free agent. Think Brad's been a really good servant of the club but I just don't see the point in holding onto him after this year. It looks like his body has given up on him.

Doesn't help him that the boys at Casey refer to him as "Fossil' either.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:33, olisik said:

Meant no dis-respect, I just honestly don't think that he is up to AFL standard.

Averaging 7 tackles a game so far which is something to work with.

Couch?

Why sweat the small stuff?

He is a rookie, and he can stay a rookie next year.

Same with Evans.

But who cares if a rookie isn't seen as possible flag winning mid? It's an effing rookie! 4 years worth of drafts have overlooked him, of course he is no world beater - but that doesn't mean he cannot contribute.

I think this is our problem of the last few years - treating list management like it is a video game. You cannot just send all the hard working grunts that aren't great in talent just because you get a boatload of kids you think 'might' become stars.

If anything we need more of the likes of Couch and Magner not less, and I dare say if we don't get what we want in FA or in trades - we will be drafting some 23 to 25 year old pros from the list of deletions or the VFL/SANFL/WAFL and I say go for it.

Surround your blue chip talents with blue collar role players.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:35, old dee said:

Pies did not think so either.

Which is fine as a statement, but when it's started with the inference that he got his spot cos Neeld was looking after the son of a former team mate is not a good way to state it.

For what it's worth I don't necessarily disagree with you and Olisik in regards to whether he is up to AFL standard.

The way I see it is that we have 4 midfielders on our rookie list that play very similarly (Nicho and Evans play a similar style, so too do, Magner and Couch) and if it wasn't for injuries and some poor form from the midfielders on our primary list, if the guys on the primary list were fit and playing their role then these guys might not be getting as many games as they are presently.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:17, old dee said:

Gee RR I think you have stolen my mind.

Not that you will get much.

Not sure about Bail, I would let him go but he seems to impress the FD and at least he fullfils my first commandment of football.

"First get the Ball"

I have grave doubts Moloney will be around next year and that Spencer will survive the cut.

My list would be Bate, Bennell, Mcdonald, Petterd, Moloney and Spencer.

Add Green as likely to fall on his own sword.

What's that saying about great minds, Old Dee?

Seriously though, I think you're also right about Moloney. My money would be on him being at GWS next year. They need big bodies like eskimos need fire.

Spencer is an interesting one. I don't think he's very good at all but we need back-up big men. He will be hoping we don't call out Brodie Grundy's name in October.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:42, rpfc said:

Couch?

Why sweat the small stuff?

He is a rookie, and he can stay a rookie next year.

Same with Evans.

But who cares if a rookie isn't seen as possible flag winning mid? It's an effing rookie! 4 years worth of drafts have overlooked him, of course he is no world beater - but that doesn't mean he cannot contribute.

I think this is our problem of the last few years - treating list management like it is a video game. You cannot just send all the hard working grunts that aren't great in talent just because you get a boatload of kids you think 'might' become stars.

If anything we need more of the likes of Couch and Magner not less, and I dare say if we don't get what we want in FA or in trades - we will be drafting some 23 to 25 year old pros from the list of deletions or the VFL/SANFL/WAFL and I say go for it.

Surround your blue chip talents with blue collar role players.

At least these guys seem to work hard for their spot and make the most of their opportunities, unlike some who will remain nameless (Colin S.).

If Magner had come from the draft we would be singing his praises, but even though he didn't he is still a first year player and has been playing some good footy and it amazes me the amount of people who are ready to jump on him or call for him to be delisted/traded this year.

  On 22/07/2012 at 08:32, The heart beats true said:

Agree on the midfield and the sentiment of not blaming the coach solely.

Unfortunately we've already had our super draft and one of our picks has struggled with pace while the other moved to surfers pardise.

I suspect the frustration aimed at Neeld is actually misguided frustration at the clubs ability to uncover and develop genuine talent.

I think your infering our "SuperDraft" was a missed opportunity.

I disagree, I think we've found a 200+ gamer & longterm captain, the other left for Green Pa$$tures, BUT, we have 2 great picks for his disloyalty.

He's caused us pain, cynicism & a delayed timeframe of development, but we could yet come out ahead.

We are lucky this Draft a so good for Mids. Lucky because we have 3 early picks. Where most have 1. This is where we could get a legup over the rest of the comp,,,, a catchup if you will.

If we take 3 mids from our fist 4 picks I'll be very happy.

One in_betweener could be nice.

We could use 5 + picks this year with elevations etc. Bat into Rnd 3, then elevations.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:42, rpfc said:

Surround your blue chip talents with blue collar role players.

Amen.

I think Neeld knows it. I also think having Couch and Magner remind the first round draft picks that you have to take your chances.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:19, olisik said:

I dont think Couch should remain on the list. I have always had the feeling that he only got a shot because of his old man and that he knew Neeld on a more personal level.

Thats a HUGE insult to a bloke that has traveled all over the country working hard on improving when everyone wrote him off.

If half our list over the past 5 years had the work ethnic and desire of Couch and Magner I can guarantee we wouldn't be 16th.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:03, Oucher said:

There is no way we will be tanking. But with the injuries we have, there isn't a heck of a lot of talent to build a competitive team from for the rest of the season eitherI don't think GC will be easy to beat, they are hitting some form.... or at least being competitive, GWS on the other hand have nothing to play for, are being smacked every week and look like they have put the cue in the rack and heading to the bar to drown their sorrows.

From here on.... the Gold Coast and Melbourne have the chance to win two more games of football I think. One is against GWS.... the other is against each other.... given we have a game in hand, and we play them at the MCG, there is not much chance the bottom three will change from now until the end of the season.

I think Neeld is more interested in testing out the list to see who is worth keeping than winning games at this point in time. This is probably due to the fact that we've lost some core players with injury but i still find it puzzling that he'd pick defenders as forwards over guys who have been doing OK for Casey and who are trying to forge careers in the forward line. I wouldnt be suprised if Jamar gets put on ice as our next long term injury, and Spencer and Fitzpatrick get given some continuity to see what they've got. Would aslo expect guys like Gysberts, Strauss, Jetta, Morton Petterd etc to play more games from now on, unless Neeld has made his mind up about them.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:44, Oucher said:

Which is fine as a statement, but when it's started with the inference that he got his spot cos Neeld was looking after the son of a former team mate is not a good way to state it.

For what it's worth I don't necessarily disagree with you and Olisik in regards to whether he is up to AFL standard.

The way I see it is that we have 4 midfielders on our rookie list that play very similarly (Nicho and Evans play a similar style, so too do, Magner and Couch) and if it wasn't for injuries and some poor form from the midfielders on our primary list, if the guys on the primary list were fit and playing their role then these guys might not be getting as many games as they are presently.

I think Evans plays differently to the others. I actually see a bit of Pendles in Evans.

And to rpfc, we also have a limited amount of players who can fit on our rookie list, so we don't just throw anyone on it. We want players who we think have the potential to be groomed into players who can get a spot on our senior list.

I would rather do something like demote Petterd to the rookie list and remove Couch from the rookie list for example.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:46, Range Rover said:

Spencer is an interesting one. I don't think he's very good at all but we need back-up big men. He will be hoping we don't call out Brodie Grundy's name in October.

I kinda hope we don't go for Grundy, but I wonder if we (and a few other clubs) will try talking to Bellchambers from Essendon. He seemed a bit annoyed that Hille just got straight back into the team and he is probably the form ruckman for the bombers this year (Ryder has flexibility)

I would like to see someone like Bellchambers pushing for the primary ruck roll with Jamar, competition for spots is healthy, and Jamar hasn't really had to compete much recently. Martin is fine in that back up ruck role, and Gawn is still young and needs to ensure his body is right.

I was invited to watch Collingwood vs Hawthorn Saturday and seeing the game live pointed out one crucial element that is missing from our team (which we all knew anyway -but seeing what we are missing live is gut wrenching) - players who can hit a target by hand and foot.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:56, nutbean said:

I was invited to watch Collingwood vs Hawthorn Saturday and seeing the game live pointed out one crucial element that is missing from our team (which we all knew anyway -but seeing what we are missing live is gut wrenching) - players who can hit a target by hand and foot.

Agree with this.... with luck another preseason should enable the players to better memorise the way Neeld requires us to play, and next year the skills part should be less of an excuse.

... I can dream!

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:50, The heart beats true said:

Amen.

I think Neeld knows it. I also think having Couch and Magner remind the first round draft picks that you have to take your chances.

Thats a HUGE insult to a bloke that has traveled all over the country working hard on improving when everyone wrote him off.

If half our list over the past 5 years had the work ethnic and desire of Couch and Magner I can guarantee we wouldn't be 16th.

This is why our midfield is so bad. People seem to think that if someone works hard that they should be on our list.

Honestly I would prefer a Sylvia, who dosn't work as hard but has a heap of talent over someone like Couch who lacks the talent but busts his chops.

Reason for that is that Sylvia has a higher ceiling that he can move into. You can motivate a Sylvia to work hard and reach higher levels but a Couch type of player will hit his ceiling of potential alot sooner then a Sylvia.

I do not see how stocking up on players with lower talent/potential ceilings will help us win a premiership regardless of how hard they work.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:17, old dee said:

Gee RR I think you have stolen my mind.

Not that you will get much.

Not sure about Bail, I would let him go but he seems to impress the FD and at least he fullfils my first commandment of football.

"First get the Ball"

I have grave doubts Moloney will be around next year and that Spencer will survive the cut.

My list would be Bate, Bennell, Mcdonald, Petterd, Moloney and Spencer.

Add Green as likely to fall on his own sword.

I would get Lyndon to 100 G's.

Then I would encourage him to look outside for his future.

Shop Moloney, Morton, & Aaron.

Rookie Bennell.

I'd keep JMac & Bater for our depth.

For mine, Bail & Petterd are keepers for the moment. Both to compete for Dunns spot.

We could merge this topic with several over the past 4 years. I still think we have a good base of players and this year has been about testing a number of players to see if they have a future and for most the answer is no. Our midfield will be different next year, Jones and Sylvia will be the base they have both shown that they are quality midfielders. Blease needs to get fit but best case with him is a HFF with stints in the midfield maybe rotating off a wing with Howe, Grimes will become a very good midfielder, Trengove will spend more time in the middle seems we are playing him more forward than in the midfield. That leaves the rest Gysberts, Taspcott, Morton, McKenzie, Evans, Jetta, Magner, Couch, Bail, Tynan, Taggart, thats 17 players plus 4-5 from the draft and any trading we do, that Neeld needs to build a high quality midfield. After the first 2 Jones and Sylvia, the others are a mile behind, we need continued improvement from both Sylvia and Jones and we need 2-3 others to push up to there level.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:19, olisik said:

I dont think Couch should remain on the list. I have always had the feeling that he only got a shot because of his old man and that he knew Neeld on a more personal level. After seeing him run around for 2 weeks in our mid field and make barely any impact I cannot see how it would be worthwhile him keeping his spot.

Alot of you may dis-agree but at the end of the day, he is never going to be a premiership mid, and premiership mids is what we need to focus on.

That said I think Evans can develop into a premiership mid after watching him at Casey.

Stepping stones. Stepping stones Oli, you never know where they'll take you. (Jamar) (JnrMac) & other rookies. To soon to say.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:51, olisik said:

I think Evans plays differently to the others. I actually see a bit of Pendles in Evans.

And to rpfc, we also have a limited amount of players who can fit on our rookie list, so we don't just throw anyone on it. We want players who we think have the potential to be groomed into players who can get a spot on our senior list.

I would rather do something like demote Petterd to the rookie list and remove Couch from the rookie list for example.

Petterd would have to go through the drafts again for that to happen.

All I am saying is that application and dedication is what unlocks whatever talent someone has.

We have too many without a key on our list and I don't want to have a culture once again where that is acceptable - we should be applauding the professionalism and dedication of Magner and Couch, not belittling their talents.

If having Magner there inspires Trengove and Blease to get the most out of themselves then he and his work ethic is worth the spot on the list.

If Petterd, Gysberts, Bennell, make way for less talented but more dedicated players then I am fine with that.

Our culture is terrible, just terrible, and shafting the hardest working among the player is not the way to clean it up.