MFC - Where are we honestly at

[Sir Why You Little 35,320]

Thanks for posting that 'melbman'

Bit more than circumstantial evidence hey . The whole thing stunk to high heaven . I've never met one person who voted for the merger . The other ridiculous thing about the vote was how on earth a "simple" majority of votes can end the life of a club . It should always be more like 3/4 of a vote to get something as major as that through .

A lot of us knew about these "sus" proxy votes before the infamous meeting . Not losers blaming a possible rigged vote "after" the event . Before the event is more to the point . 'Wyl' has reminded me of the phone calls I was getting as well . It was dirty business IMO .

Sometimes foresight is a wonderful thing .

Cheers .

You got those calls to hey Macca. I wish i had kept the letters and brochures i got as well, but i threw it all out in disgust not long after the event.

With between 800-1000 proxies witheld the result would have swung.

No wonder Hawthorn smash us so often.

[Demon Disciple 11,190]

i was much too young to go to the meeting at DBH, concerning the merger. My dad has told me every time it has been brought up between us, that they only asked those who opposed the merger, if they wanted to change their vote.

[Macca 16,174]

Melbman its the lack of money being invested into our football department that is the root of the blame. Where should the money come from? The coach and players are important if they are allowed to compete on a level playing field. Is the MFC on a level playing field with all other AFL clubs? I dont expect you to answer that by the way.

Oh thats right thats the players fault! Oh thats right its the coaches fault. Oh thats right its the drafting team fault! But wait a minute coaches come & go, players come and go , footy department personnel come and go. Boards come and go.

Do we have one constant at the MFC? Again I dont expect you to answer that either. Just think about it. Is it possible we as "fans" are responsible for our own destiny? Are we responsible for our own "culture"?

Just a thought.

But here lies the problem Doc , we don't have that many fans . We're like a medium/small club in the EPL . With the draft and the Salary cap to even things up .

It's estimated that we've got about 135,000 fans or thereabouts . Marginally above North Melbourne and in most cases way behind everybody else . I'm not including GWS or the GCS . Somebody posted a table on Demonland aways back . It was quite an eye-opener for me even though I long suspected the truth . Might have been 'Supermercado' that posted that "Table of fans"

However , our conversion of fans to members is the best in the League . It will take many , many years to get lots more fans and therefore more members . Success on the field is paramount . Auskick numbers are appallingly low .

If I had anything to do with things I'd "give away" a certain number of junior memberships . I wouldn't think that our club would make any "real" money out of junior memberships anyway . We could hit that whole Casey area for a start . Best time to do something like that would be in the months after we'd played a couple of finals . So we'd better hurry up and start winning !

I think the Club did have a policy of a free junior membership with every Adult membership purchased . Not sure on the exact details . Somebody here will know .

Cheers

Edited March 17, 2012 by Macca

[Guest Dr Who]

Thanks for posting that 'melbman'

Bit more than circumstantial evidence hey . The whole thing stunk to high heaven . I've never met one person who voted for the merger . The other ridiculous thing about the vote was how on earth a "simple" majority of votes can end the life of a club . It should always be more like 3/4 of a vote to get something as major as that through .

A lot of us knew about these "sus" proxy votes before the infamous meeting . Not losers blaming a possible rigged vote "after" the event . Before the event is more to the point . 'Wyl' has reminded me of the phone calls I was getting as well . It was dirty business IMO .

Sometimes foresight is a wonderful thing .

Cheers .

Around here I would expect few did vote for the merger. I know you think that too - I will put a wager on that.

But around here is not our exclusive problem, its only part of the problem. We still struggle to even get the passionate to recognise the real issue in my opinion.

Do Collingwood have that problem? Do Geelong have that problem? Do Hawthorn have that problem? Do West Coast & Adelaide have that problem? Dare I say it - until recently the Tigers had the same problem - but for the first time in many years they have re-appointed a coach that finished 15th & 12th - Where are they blaming the coach? No they have been investing for years and where smart enough to get nearly $15 million from the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to assist. Like it or lump it the Tiger majority have finally realised what you have to do to become successful in modern day AFL football. I hope like hell that does not transfer towards onfield success. The Tigers have stopped eating their own.

Sometimes foresight is a wonderful thing. But even better is an unconditional belief that your destiny is in your own hands, you are responsible for your own culture, only you can right the wrongs of the past whoever made them.

Cheers see you at the footy irrespective if you voted yes or no on merger night. Irrespective if you believe its the players, irrespective if you blame the coach the drafting team or the footy department. But sadly many of our fans haven't bought that, YET.

[Macca 16,174]

Around here I would expect few did vote for the merger. I know you think that too - I will put a wager on that.

But around here is not our exclusive problem, its only part of the problem. We still struggle to even get the passionate to recognise the real issue in my opinion.

Do Collingwood have that problem? Do Geelong have that problem? Do Hawthorn have that problem? Do West Coast & Adelaide have that problem? Dare I say it - until recently the Tigers had the same problem - but for the first time in many years they have re-appointed a coach that finished 15th & 12th - Where are they blaming the coach? No they have been investing for years and where smart enough to get nearly $15 million from the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to assist. Like it or lump it the Tiger majority have finally realised what you have to do to become successful in modern day AFL football. I hope like hell that does not transfer towards onfield success. The Tigers have stopped eating their own.

Sometimes foresight is a wonderful thing. But even better is an unconditional belief that your destiny is in your own hands, you are responsible for your own culture, only you can right the wrongs of the past whoever made them.

Cheers see you at the footy irrespective if you voted yes or no on merger night. Irrespective if you believe its the players, irrespective if you blame the coach the drafting team or the footy department. But sadly many of our fans haven't bought that, YET.

Agree with a fair bit of what you've said there Doc . I don't like excuses either .

The one thing I disagree with you a bit is on coaching tenures . Carlton , Hawthorn and West Coast all seemed to do quite well last year even though their coaches weren't re-signed .

Even though I don't really care what Richmond do with their coach , I think they should have waited until the end of the year or given him a 1 year extension . On principle , I'm not a great believer in long term contracts for coaches . 2 years is enough . If a coach wants job security , go do something else . I prefer to see a Coach working under a bit of pressure . They're big boys , they can handle it . Or at least the good one's can .

As the late Keith Miller so famously said "Pressure is a Messerschmitt ................................."

I don't like comfort zones . Many successful people are good under pressure . I like that "See what they're made of" motto . I know it can't really happen but I'd have a lot of our players on performance based contracts . Or at least for the non "self starters" . To my way of thinking , our players in the last few years haven't been hungry enough . Hopefully Neeld will fix that .

Cheers

Edited March 17, 2012 by Macca

[Guest Dr Who]

But here lies the problem Doc , we don't have that many fans . We're like a medium/small club in the EPL . With the draft and the Salary cap to even things up .

It's estimated that we've got about 135,000 fans or thereabouts . Marginally above North Melbourne and in most cases way behind everybody else . I'm not including GWS or the GCS . Somebody posted a table on Demonland aways back . It was quite an eye-opener for me even though I long suspected the truth . Might have been 'Supermercado' that posted that "Table of fans"

However , our conversion of fans to members is the best in the League . It will take many , many years to get lots more fans and therefore more members . Success on the field is paramount . Auskick numbers are appallingly low .

If I had anything to do with things I'd "give away" a certain number of junior memberships . I wouldn't think that our club would make any "real" money out of junior memberships anyway . We could hit that whole Casey area for a start . Best time to do something like that would be in the months after we'd played a couple of finals . So we'd better hurry up and start winning !

I think the Club did have a policy of a free junior membership with every Adult membership purchased . Not sure on the exact details . Somebody here will know .

Cheers

Ok lets look at what you have said. Could I explore your "fans" or "lack" of "fans" points 1 step further?

Is it possible that some/many MFC "fans" lost the desire/ability/need to identify themselves as MFC "fans" - abhorrent as that may sound to some?

Is it possible that the "Dob In a Demon Campaign" was a recognition by an administration that demonstrated the ability to recognise the real issues.

So yes our conversion of "known" "fans" is a credit to all concerned. I agree we have lost a generation regarding "Auskick" numbers.

Look I'm not trying to down play on-field success, but its not the be all and end all. Other factors come into play.

Just a thought.

All the best.

Cheers

[daisycutter 28,722]

No problems little Jim. Best of luck with the solving the problems. Clearly you fail to grasp modern day AFL reality.

No I dont blame ALL of the fans.

I point out some of "loyal fans" that cant even be bothered to turn up to watch the games.

• The same "loyal fans" where we were actually losing money due to our attendance. Did those "loyal fans" sort that one? Oh the truth hurts.
  
• Sure the same "loyal fans" that took years to react and only moved when we where on deaths door.
  
• The same "loyal fans" that spent more time infighting "claiming he did this he said that" - failed to move forward.
  
• The same "loyal fans" that let the very situation happen in the first place - maybe the root of the problem does sit at the feet of the failed merger - I'm not sure on that.
  
• The same "loyal fans" the want success and want others to do the work.
  
• The same "loyal fans" that are ignorant to the very workings of our own football club.
  

But I'm sure you will blame the players, blame the coach, blame blah blah blah - negative garbage.

Our last few years have been sensational and finally we have some "fans" that understand the path to modern day success. Finally we have a CEO that understands our short-comings and solves our attendance $$$$ losing problem by quality upfront negotiations with the MCG.

Many are here among this forum, thats great. Finally we have a board with a quality passion for increasing our investment inside our football department without going into debt. Finally we have a board that understand you need alternative income because you can't really on these some of these "loyal fans" they are short term fickle thinkers.

So little Jim best of luck. Your "loyal fans" will let you down I can promise you that. (Their history tells me that.) Pat your "loyal fans" on the back little Jim the job is only half done.

that's one heavy chip you have there doc, but glad to see you are on top of it

[Arsene Wenger 72]

An interesting comment from the West Coast - Adelaide game tonight. The commentators said that Sanderson was fortunate to take over an Adelaide side that had such an excellent fitness base - due to Neil Craig. This meant Sanderson was able to spend much of the pre-season working on structures and game plans.

I don't think Neeld had the same luxury - which explains all the lap work we did before the NAB cup.

Maybe this means we have to be patient and wait for better performances.

Good point.

I remember before quitting that NC insisted the Crows weren't far off where they needed to be.

He could have been dead right.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I was at Dallas Brooks Hall in 1996 as a member of the Demon Alternative group.

Quite a night.

[Samsara 65]

In response to main OP question...

I've said it before, but I'll reiterate that I am confident that the new coaching group will get the very best out of this list of players. However, I do not think the best from this list is going to be near good enough. Our recruiting over the last few years has been average at best, with a few players in the TBC basket at the moment. We need to inject some real talent into the group via trading (ala Clark) and the draft (Viney is a great start). We also need some of our current crop to really step it up, as the output from Green, Davey, Moloney, Sylvia, and co. is inconsistent and usually not up to scratch. Players like Watts, Trengove, Frawley, Gysberts, Jones etc will need to become our core (I think RPFC used the term Flagcore for this).

I expect us to have a mildly better season than last, probably about 9-10 wins and to finish around 10th - 12th. This is a disappointing prospect in some respects, as we have been very mediocre since 2006. We have a new coaching staff, but there is still much work to be done.

[dee-luded 2,958]

But DL we didn't come from a suburb. We came from the 'G. That is our base.

The other clubs just rent.

I can understand what you mean, but we must learn to coexist.

And I think this is where I perceive Our weakness.

The MCC/MFC members are Too maybe Worldly & empathetic. We maybe create a too Secure environment amongst the supporters for our Players. Our expectations too nice. This doesn't bode well for a combat mission.

We need Our players to Really Hurt when we lose. We need to really hurt when we lose. I feel Our players are Insulated from this Pain somehow. > Is this the Lacking tribalism, suburb Oriented Parochialism??? The desire to bang up the Other Mob!

We have to Remove the Niceness from our Play, IF we are Ever to win another Flag.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Found this at http://demonwiki.org/Mergers

Aided by a large number proxies, the chaotic Melbourne meeting at Dallas Brooks Hall endorsed the merger by a vote of 4679 to 4229 amongst angry scenes directed at President Ian Ridley. However with the Hawks rejection the proposal was dead in the water. The meeting had originally been scheduled to be at Melbourne Park but the venue was already booked by the Dalai Lama and the club were forced to hold it amongst chaotic scenes in the much smaller hall. It should have been ok, in the history of the club there had never been an election with a higher turnout than 30%. Dallas Brookes Hall allowed for 50% to turn up, but many more stacked into the hall and it was almost midnight until a verdict was announced.

Demon Alternative leader Joseph Gutnick flagged a legal challenge to the vote in the days after the meeting but it did not eventuate. Controversy had erupted before the vote over director Bill Guest signing up members of his family and staff before the cut-off vote for memberships so they could vote in favour of the merger. Despite the claims there were just 800 late membership purchases, and it was widely acknowledged that they came from both sides of the argument. In addition to the vote the night before 200 "yes" proxy votes arrived the day after but couldn't be counted.

This is an Indictment, on Us all...

[Dr. Gonzo 22,786]

I 100% agree is laughable at the ignorance of many of our supporters. Its so much easier to blame the players, blame the coach, blame the drafting team. Blame whoever you want but bitterly refuse to point the finger at the real cause. "Are we there yet" I dont want to go until we are winning - "Are we there yet"

To be fair I think this is crap - so many of our supporters (particularly those on Demonland) have been following mediocre teams for a very long time. Most on here have been members year in, year out and will support the club and turn up to games no matter what.

You have commented on investment in player developmnent, facilities, sports science etc and I don't think that is a valid excuse any longer. We have equal to the best facilities in the competition, we have now invested heavily in our FD. Granted this won't have immediate effect but I don't think we can continue pulling these reasons out of our arse for why we can't win. Look at St. Kilda for example. Are they really that different to us? Yet they have been unlucky to lose 2 GF's in the last 3 years.

[dee-luded 2,958]

I feel for you having to put up with our ignorance. I really though that the coach and players were important. Thanks for sorting that out, it's the supporters who are to blame. I bet that's a load off Neeld's mind. I guess we're lucky that we the fans weren't sacked after 186, thanks bails for taking the hit.

Reminds me of the time I saw a really crap film that I blamed the script writers, actors and producers for. I clearly see now that had more people attended, the movie would have been much better. I can now blame my brother for the bad film cos he didn't come to watch it with me and support it.

ed: spulling

This is the CRUX of the problem.

If were not good enough, our supporter base, aging as it is & jaded from decades of Torment, turn their back of their minds to the thought of watching another game. It's not enough to put on a show, a circus, a ruse.

The people know what is Real, & what isn't. They know when they see the Real Deal. (The Cats) over the last few Years, or Port.

We not only want to put on a display of good footy, We want to Win a Bloody flag or 3! When is it Our turn at the Top?

We have to pay good money and have great facilities to develop a fantastic List of Brothers in Arms. NOT a band of Merry Men.

We now seem to heading this way, but we need to get that supporter suburban Base happening. We want some Parochial Tribalism Vented at games. For Us... Not diplomacy.

[Bonkers 918]

To be fair I think this is crap - so many of our supporters (particularly those on Demonland) have been following mediocre teams for a very long time. Most on here have been members year in, year out and will support the club and turn up to games no matter what.

You have commented on investment in player developmnent, facilities, sports science etc and I don't think that is a valid excuse any longer. We have equal to the best facilities in the competition, we have now invested heavily in our FD. Granted this won't have immediate effect but I don't think we can continue pulling these reasons out of our arse for why we can't win. Look at St. Kilda for example. Are they really that different to us? Yet they have been unlucky to lose 2 GF's in the last 3 years.

I don't have the figures at hand but I believe the investment in the football department over the last 5 years would have been bottom 5 out of all the existing AFL clubs. It's only over the present pre season that the club has been able to invest more money into the FD. Player development investment in particular would have been way behind other clubs in the past & we are still playing catchup with the bigger clubs. If anyone has the figures on FD spendature throughout the AFL clubs it would be interesting reading. Whilst it isn't an excuse, it still has to be factored in to the equation.

[Pennant St Dee 11,764]

Where are we at?

Most of our best 22 are young and have played approx 40-60 games.

It's clear the "game plan" under bailey did more damage than good.

Our game plan now will take time to become the norm, with Neeld & Craig at the helm we should be at minimum playing a similar style to the top 4.

This year will be like last year, bu I think we will see something develop that will get us to the finals.

Yes a bit of common sense here, although finals for me is a very longshot, people like to talk about West Coast but if you look at a lot of their younger players who came through last season they are now at the 80-100game mark and even Shuey had 3 pre season under his belt. The older players are not going to take us anywhere. The kids of this club are the ones changing the culture and the future draftees will follow their lead.

Anyone contemplating suicide should never come on Demonland, it is very depressing at times with unrealistic supporter expectations

[Bonkers 918]

I've found a few interesting articles regarding FD spendature for those who are interested.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/120603/default.aspx

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/sport/collingwoood-magpies-spend-20m-to-buy-flag/story-e6frg7mf-1226049430571

http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/04/16/is-footy-department-spending-an-unfair-modern-trend/

[Guest Dr Who]

I don't have the figures at hand but I believe the investment in the football department over the last 5 years would have been bottom 5 out of all the existing AFL clubs. It's only over the present pre season that the club has been able to invest more money into the FD. Player development investment in particular would have been way behind other clubs in the past & we are still playing catchup with the bigger clubs. If anyone has the figures on FD spendature throughout the AFL clubs it would be interesting reading. Whilst it isn't an excuse, it still has to be factored in to the equation.

The best quote I ever read was “In terms of haves versus have nots, I think we’re certainly seeing the AFL ladder reflecting a clubs ability to spend within their football department like we have never seen before,” said AFL Players Association executive Ian Prendegast.

But obvioulsy not as much as some Demonland posters.

I checked out Google - I'm sure there will be heaps more but lets get back to talking about the players, the coach, the administration - thats more FUN.

Geelong 2011

1/ http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/geelongs-2011-premiership-triumph-comes-on-the-back-of-a-12-million-football-department-splurge/story-e6frf33l-1226209839972

Collingwood 2010

1/ http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/collingwoood-magpies-spend-20m-to-buy-flag/story-e6frg7mf-1226049430571

I loved the "west coast spend" came from nowhere - but wait look how much they are spending. And I recall watching them in a Grand Final as late as last night.

[Sir Why You Little 35,320]

So Dr. Using you template for success, how long do tou believe North & Footscray will last in this elite competition?

I agree with the FD Spending curve. I gave the club some $$ for this last yearand will continue to do so.

[Arsene Wenger 72]

The best quote I ever read was “In terms of haves versus have nots, I think we’re certainly seeing the AFL ladder reflecting a clubs ability to spend within their football department like we have never seen before,” said AFL Players Association executive Ian Prendegast.

But obvioulsy not as much as some Demonland posters.

I checked out Google - I'm sure there will be heaps more but lets get back to talking about the players, the coach, the administration - thats more FUN.

Geelong 2011

1/ http://www.foxsports...l-1226209839972

Collingwood 2010

1/ http://www.theaustra...f-1226049430571

I loved the "west coast spend" came from nowhere - but wait look how much they are spending. And I recall watching them in a Grand Final as late as last night.

This is true, but you also need to know where to spend the money.

I'm not sure the football dept last year would've known what to do with it.

I imagine the full effect of the expenditure won't be properly felt for a few seasons.

[Sir Why You Little 35,320]

This is true, but you also need to know where to spend the money.

I'm not sure the football dept last year would've known what to do with it.

I imagine the full effect of the expenditure won't be properly felt for a few seasons.

Correct. $$$ + communication+ the right players= a chance at top 4

[Macca 16,174]

Unless the AFL put a cap on the amount of money that clubs can spend on their FD's we will continue to see discrepancies .

And the gap is probably going to get wider .

Collingwood have a gross income of about 70 mil . Ours is about 40 mil . ( up from 26 mil just a few years ago ) Because of our small supporter/member base we've got "Buckleys chance" of bridging the gap to a great extent .

But , the thing in our favour is that their may be a ceiling on how much a FD "spend" is really effective .

Say , after around about 20 mil , it may just be wasted money . I mean , how many sets of weights , exercise bikes , masseurs , diet plans , ovals to train on , sports scientists , coaches etc etc etc do you need ? Surely you get to a point where anything more would be unnecessary . One multi vitamin a day is sufficient , any more and you're peeing bright orange !!

We don't hear about these sort FD type spends in other big sports around the world . I suspect it's because they've reached their zenith .

Still reckon we've got a bit of catching up to do but it seems a lot of things are in place right now .

Cheers

Edited March 18, 2012 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 35,320]

Unless the AFL put a cap on the amount of money that clubs can spend on their FD's we will continue to see discrepancies .

And the gap is probably going to get wider .

Collingwood have a gross income of about 70 mil . Ours is about 40 mil . ( up from 26 mil just a few years ago ) Because of our small supporter/member base we've got "Buckleys chance" of bridging the gap to a great extent .

But , the thing in our favour is that their may be a ceiling on how much a FD "spend" is really effective .

Say , after around about 20 mil , it may just be wasted money . I mean , how many sets of weights , exercise bikes , masseurs , diet plans , ovals to train on , sports scientists , coaches etc etc etc do you need ? Surely you get to a point where anything more would be unnecessary .

We don't hear about these sort FD type spends in other big sports around the world . I suspect it's because they've reached their zenith .

Still reckon we've got a bit of catching up to do but it seems a lot of things are in place right now .

Cheers

I don't think that FD Sending will or should be capped. A salary cap on players yes. As far as FD goes the Mfc has to get smarter

[Macca 16,174]

I don't think that FD Sending will or should be capped. A salary cap on players yes. As far as FD goes the Mfc has to get smarter

I don't think it should be capped either . My opening remark on that post was to highlight the gap between the clubs . There's gotta be some sort of incentive for clubs to outdo other clubs .

We are starting to get smarter with regards the FD . We've got a zillion coaches now - but can they teach 'em how to kick please ?

I know where you're coming from 'Wyl' . As a club , you've always gotta be looking to get better but I reckon we're on the right track .

Cheers

Edited March 18, 2012 by Macca

[daisycutter 28,722]

The best quote I ever read was “In terms of haves versus have nots, I think we’re certainly seeing the AFL ladder reflecting a clubs ability to spend within their football department like we have never seen before,” said AFL Players Association executive Ian Prendegast.

But obvioulsy not as much as some Demonland posters.

I checked out Google - I'm sure there will be heaps more but lets get back to talking about the players, the coach, the administration - thats more FUN.

Geelong 2011

1/ http://www.foxsports...l-1226209839972

Collingwood 2010

1/ http://www.theaustra...f-1226049430571

I loved the "west coast spend" came from nowhere - but wait look how much they are spending. And I recall watching them in a Grand Final as late as last night.

you're moving the goal posts a bit here

you initially implied the root problem of the club was the 'negativity' of supporters who didn't 'buy in' (whatever that means). As if fixing up this supposed negativity of supporters would swing around the club's fortunes.

If what you are really saying now is that we need to increase our revenue and invest more into the football dept then I think most posters here would agree and many have raised this issue for a number of years so there is no reason for you to continue abusing your fellow posters.

If you think the 'big' club's supporters are always posting in a positive way then I suggest you spend some time on their forums. You will find they are just as searching and challenging and passionate and emotional as here.