Exactly, UTAH. There is no way you would pick Howe, who plays pretty much the same role as Darling, and Darling in the same draft.

As an interesting exercise (that may or may not be of any importance) would everyone rather have Cook + Howe, or Darling + another player between pick 34 and 50?

Whilst we are in dire need of more midfielders now I'm pretty happy with Cook and Howe. I think people will start to realise development is just as important as recruiting and Cook has a lot of it to do still. His year wasn't too bad last year before he ran out of puff and he's now had an injury set back. I'd hold all judgement to 2013 or probably even 2014.

Yeah, like Martin Pike (4 times premiership player - I hate reading that). What would you do if players turn up to training having been drinking?

And the biggest criticism of ND is that he played players who did not deserve a game because of past form and reputation. You can't have it both ways. You either have a team structure and discipline (Coll, Geel) or you have undisciplined rabble. Players with chequered pasts are a timebomb.

Liegh Matthews and Pagan both sorted out Martin Pike...Sadly we did not.

If Clark does his job JW has a breakout season Tommy Mc plays well in the forward line then who knows where or if Cook will get a game. Also with Howe playing tall it makes the forward line a hard place to break in to.

My original query was about the club selecting 3 tall skinny kids out of our last 4 first round selections, particularly when we needed midfielders and we lacked any physical size.

That has been my query all along with this topic..Thanks for saying it in 2 lines RF!

Mitch Brown has so many injuries he's probably in the "Cook" catagory - unknown. Vardy showed a lot of promise I agree. Still Mooney is gone, Pod is old and Hawkins still unproven after a number of years despite a good finals series. Hawkins is a good example of a tall who other than FS would have been taken top 10 who has taken ages to progress. The discussion here seems to be "take Darling as he's good and he's "now". I believe Cook was probably taken for the type of footballer he will be (most likely different to Darling) and the fact BP believed he would be better than Darling in the longer run. If this is in fact right I support it. Our premiership window will be from 2015 onward and we need to be as good as we can be then. If we suffer a bit now then that's ok by me as long as we are maximizing our chances to win a flag with this list.

From 2015 onwards?? Get Real, Free Agency will rip our list apart if we are still hiding behind that theory.

We gotta start aiming for a flag Round one 2012.

Immediately following the 2010 draft the vast majority of posters were lauding the fact that we went for 4 talls after BP drafted mainly mids with our early picks prior to that. Now Clark has arrived and Scully has gone and the tune has changed.

Not accurate. There were quite a few on here who went "doh! another skinny tall!" when we scrambled to look up Cook's bio. Further than that, a number of posters were hoping Prendergast would overlook the "Darling wild child" tag and go with the best and most aggressive forward available. Alas, Melbourne's recruiting conservatism reverted to type and we went for the project player.

Referring to your earlier posts, (and as has been suggested by other posters) your inclusion of Geelong as a suitor for Darling is tenuous at best. After GC fortuitously took Lynch at 11 it really only left Melbourne and Carlton in the hunt for Darling as clubs desperate to snare a key forward. We both erroneously baulked and let the player slide to 26 at what must have been a [censored]-a-hoop West Coast recruiter's table up on the Gold Coast. Champagne all-round for Woosha and the boys that night I bet!

What I want to know is ... why the curious lack of criticism of Prendergast despite the fact that he is no longer at the club? Don't tell me you buy this nonsensical PR-line that he is pursuing a Nathan Buckley-esque career coaching path via a player-analysis role at Carlton ... Greener pastures?? I think not.

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by Range Rover

In my view, it is revisionism in the extreme to think that in 2007/2008, when the club was on the ropes, we embarked on a rebuild which entailed the premiership window theoretically commencing in 2015 and being thoroughly uncompetitive in the meantime.

I have followed this club as intently as most others here, and I recall the methodology being to bottom out a little in order to secure some really good young talent and clean out some of the old guard, whilst retaining the existing talent on the list. Conveniently, some here are now seemingly pushing out the premiership window a little to, hopefully, allow certain picks to come on (eg Cook), even if it means not peaking the list whilst the likes of Jamar (AA), Green (near AA), Sylvia (should be AA) and Moloney (unlucky not to be AA) are running around at their peak. IMO we don't currently have enough talent not to take advantage of these players in their prime.

If we're now talking about our premiership window commencing 2015 (which seems speculative in the extreme), that means our initial rebuild didn't work or we didn't recruit players who would complement our existing talent - something teams like the Swans and the Pies would never allow to occur.

In short, IMO we didn't need to bottom out to be in this position now - fringe top 8 with no guarantee of being top 4 the year after. That's why I reckon Neeld is recruiting mature bodied players - he's trying to accelerate the development of this list. We simply don't have forever to incubate young talent - the rubber has to hit the road, and we have to start winning more games than we lose. This year.

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by Ron Burgundy

In my view, it is revisionism in the extreme to think that in 2007/2008, when the club was on the ropes, we embarked on a rebuild which entailed the premiership window theoretically commencing in 2015 and being thoroughly uncompetitive in the meantime.

I have followed this club as intently as most others here, and I recall the methodology being to bottom out a little in order to secure some really good young talent and clean out some of the old guard, whilst retaining the existing talent on the list. Conveniently, some here are now seemingly pushing the out the premiership window a little to, hopefully, allow certain picks to come on (eg Cook), even if it means not peaking the list whilst the likes of Jamar (AA), Green (near AA), Sylvia (should be AA) and Moloney (unlucky not to be AA) are running around at their peak. IMO we don't currently have enough talent not to take advantage of these players in their prime.

If we're now talking about our premiership window commencing 2015 (which seems speculative in the extreme), that means our initial rebuild didn't work or we didn't recruit players who would complement our existing talent - something teams like the Swans and the Pies would never allow to occur.

In short, we didn't IMO need to bottom out to be in this position now - fringe top 8 with no guarantee of being top 4 the year after. That's why I reckon Neeld is recruiting mature bodied players - he's trying to accelerate the development of this list. We simply don't have forever to incubate young talent - the rubber has to hit the road, and we have to start winning more games than we lose. This year.

Good post. Kinda brings to mind sayings like ... 'life is what happens while you're making other plans' ... and ... 'a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow'.

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by Range Rover

Premiership Attitude starts now.

Exactly, UTAH. There is no way you would pick Howe, who plays pretty much the same role as Darling, and Darling in the same draft. As an interesting exercise (that may or may not be of any importance) would everyone rather have Cook + Howe, or Darling + another player between pick 34 and 50?

Personally I think we would have picked Howe at 34 irrespective of who we selected at 12. Just my view.

Begs the question though - did we pick Cook and Howe because they were 'best available' or because of perceived 'needs'?

I reckon Howe was picked because he was the 'best available' at that pick. His form to date backs that up. In any event, it's pretty hard for many of you to assert otherwise, given that many of you seem to think we have a glut of mid sized forwards and did not need any more (eg, Green, Petterd, Dunn, Sylvia etc). If that's the case, why else would we have picked him?

Cook - 'best available' or 'need'? Don't know. The recent evidence is that, despite picking Cook, the new regime has invested heavily in recruiting hard at it talls (eg, Mitch Clark, Jai Sheahan, Leigh Williams and James Sellar). There might be absolutely nothing in this. Then again, perhaps they think we still have a major void in this area.

Good post. It brings to mind sayings like ... 'life is what happens while you're making other plans' ... and ... 'a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow'.

I've mentioned this before only to be shot down and told I was too impatient, we seem to have a revolving 5 year plan that recommences every 3 years.

As Ron said, we recruit kids to complement the established players we have but never seem to have enough talent to win a flag because by the time they are ready the established players no longer are.

I've mentioned this before only to be shot down and told I was too impatient, we seem to have a revolving 5 year plan that recommences every 3 years.

As Ron said, we recruit kids to complement the established players we have but never seem to have enough talent to win a flag because by the time they are ready the established players no longer are.

Yes, the underlying story here is the inherent weakness in the whole youth development/premiership window recruiting methodology and how it is driven by the unchallenged self-interest of those pushing it, rather than the actual needs of the football club.

Fortunately, we now appear to have a man at the helm who is prepared to shun this approach and actually put his cojones on the line.

We won't win a premiership any other way.

I've mentioned this before only to be shot down and told I was too impatient, we seem to have a revolving 5 year plan that recommences every 3 years.

So true sadly. Although i don't think Neeld is here for a 5 year plan.

He did say "i only get one shot at this" which is why we must have a Premiership Attitude from this year.

This is where Neeld's plan is different to Baileys.

Bailey's seemed to be about recruiting the kids and then forming a team.

Neeld's seems to be about forming a team and then adding to it. The problem so far is that a once talented generation has fallen by the wayside. The 2003/2004/2005 draft classes of McLean, Sylvia, Chris Johnson, Bate, Dunn, Newton, Jones, Buckley, Bartram etc are looking very thin, just like the 01/02 drafts before them. So we go forward and try to build upon the Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Morton, Maric, Grimes era and add in the Watts and co and Scully/Trengove and co. Now we lose Scully but replace him with Mitch Clark and next years draft batch. I like how Neeld has added in a few mature bodies to lift the team and now next year we'll get a good run of draft picks again. If Viney and co can be a deep draft class for us then we might just have enough talent to do something, especially as they will be stepping into a team, not stepping in to a bare shell of a side like the guys coming in especially under the Bailey early years.

Not accurate. There were quite a few on here who went "doh! another skinny tall!" when we scrambled to look up Cook's bio. Further than that, a number of posters were hoping Prendergast would overlook the "Darling wild child" tag and go with the best and most aggressive forward available. Alas, Melbourne's recruiting conservatism reverted to type and we went for the project player.

Referring to your earlier posts, (and as has been suggested by other posters) your inclusion of Geelong as a suitor for Darling is tenuous at best. After GC fortuitously took Lynch at 11 it really only left Melbourne and Carlton in the hunt for Darling as clubs desperate to snare a key forward. We both erroneously baulked and let the player slide to 26 at what must have been a [censored]-a-hoop West Coast recruiter's table up on the Gold Coast. Champagne all-round for Woosha and the boys that night I bet!

What I want to know is ... why the curious lack of criticism of Prendergast despite the fact that he is no longer at the club? Don't tell me you buy this nonsensical PR-line that he is pursuing a Nathan Buckley-esque career coaching path via a player-analysis role at Carlton ... Greener pastures?? I think not.

One it all depends on darling being a KPF, alot of clubs can use this, Port, Adelaide, North, Carlton, Sydney, Dogs, Brisbane, Saints

Similarly teams could use a 190ish cm medium tall, Port, Adelaide, North, Geelong, Saints, Carlton, Sydney, Dogs, Brisbane, Goldcoast, Hawthorn

Not just aus and Carlton imo, every club could use a darling type player but chose not to, apart from Collingwood who didnt have the chance

This is where Neeld's plan is different to Baileys.

Bailey's seemed to be about recruiting the kids and then forming a team.

Neeld's seems to be about forming a team and then adding to it. The problem so far is that a once talented generation has fallen by the wayside. The 2003/2004/2005 draft classes of McLean, Sylvia, Chris Johnson, Bate, Dunn, Newton, Jones, Buckley, Bartram etc are looking very thin, just like the 01/02 drafts before them. So we go forward and try to build upon the Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Morton, Maric, Grimes era and add in the Watts and co and Scully/Trengove and co. Now we lose Scully but replace him with Mitch Clark and next years draft batch. I like how Neeld has added in a few mature bodies to lift the team and now next year we'll get a good run of draft picks again. If Viney and co can be a deep draft class for us then we might just have enough talent to do something, especially as they will be stepping into a team, not stepping in to a bare shell of a side like the guys coming in especially under the Bailey early years.

The number of players still on our list from between 02 till now suggest our drafting was poor. This is with Bate and Dunn both first rounders being on shaky ground

I've mentioned this before only to be shot down and told I was too impatient, we seem to have a revolving 5 year plan that recommences every 3 years.

As Ron said, we recruit kids to complement the established players we have but never seem to have enough talent to win a flag because by the time they are ready the established players no longer are.

The sad reality is this - if we do not use our existing senior players as part of our premiership window, Gold Coast and GWS are much closer to a flag than us. In short, they have much more young talent than we do - and they will be far better progressed in their 'build' than we are in our 'rebuild' commencing whenever it did.

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by Ron Burgundy

The sad reality is this - if we do not use our existing senior players as part of our premiership window, Gold Coast and GWS are much closer to a flag than us. In short, they have much more young talent than we do - and they will be far better progressed in their 'build' than we are in our 'rebuild' commencing whenever it did.

I agree 100%,

I think what Neeld is doing is great, if his game plan works after next pre-season we should be looking good for a big 2013 push into the 8 ( i mean deep). Also 3 first round picks will go along way to strengthening our list in any area Neeld feels after 1 year in charge.

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by Jordie_tackles

Our premiership window will be from 2015 onward and we need to be as good as we can be then. If we suffer a bit now then that's ok by me as long as we are maximizing our chances to win a flag with this list.

This is the attitude that brought down Daniher and then Bailey/Connolly. The excuse that our time isn't now, therefore it's fine to lose. Or better still, why have Player X play now if he isn't going to be there in year 201X?

Notice how we haven't heard any of this from Neeld and his team? Or the focus on drafting/trading for players who are ready now, not just in five years and 15 kilograms later?

Sure, they may be thinking it, but they don't dare speak it in public, or have it prominent in mind of the players and coaches.

The sad reality is this - if we do not use our existing senior players as part of our premiership window, Gold Coast and GWS are much closer to a flag than us. In short, they have much more young talent than we do - and they will be far better progressed in their 'build' than we are in our 'rebuild' commencing whenever it did.

...and that is a concern. There's not much to like in our over 25's with the exception of Jamar so a lot is going to hinge on the Frawley, Garland, Grimes, Clark, Jurrah, Jones, Bail etc. group of 22-25's and Trengove, Watts, Blease, Howe, McDonald and co realising their potential.

It will also be interesting to see how many of the Gold Coast and GWS kids get poached after their 2 year contracts expire.

This is the attitude that brought down Daniher and then Bailey/Connolly. The excuse that our time isn't now, therefore it's fine to lose. Or better still, why have Player X play now if he isn't going to be there in year 201X?

Notice how we haven't heard any of this from Neeld and his team? Or the focus on drafting/trading for players who are ready now, not just in five years and 15 kilograms later?

Sure, they may be thinking it, but they don't dare speak it in public, or have it prominent in mind of the players and coaches.

Yep. You don't aim to make the team Hard by talking 3-5 year plans.

The mindset of the entire FD must adjust very quickly.

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by why you little

...and that is a concern. There's not much to like in our over 25's with the exception of Jamar so a lot is going to hinge on the Frawley, Garland, Grimes, Clark, Jurrah, Jones, Bail etc. group of 22-25's and Trengove, Watts, Blease, Howe, McDonald and co realising their potential.

It will also be interesting to see how many of the Gold Coast and GWS kids get poached after their 2 year contracts expire.

and when you read it like that there are not many other clubs who have youngsters of that quality who have there best years ahead of them. This group as I have said on many other posts will form the nucleaus of our side for the next 10 years and the kids coming through like the Vineys etc will learn from this lot like the Cats kids all look so polished with the bigger bodies helping them out. On top of that it is Trengove, Frawley, Jones and Watts who along with Grimes will be the leaders on and off the field and are currently changing the culture.

But FFS it doesn't happen overnight, I will say again we are not that far away as some think but FFS can we drop the DARLING V COOK thing its been done to death and will not be decided for another few years, picking or not picking Darling will not be the difference in us breaking our Premiership drought

The time for winning should always be "Right now" regardless of list age , size etc etc . Losing should never be tolerated . We can still build for the future with a winning culture / thinking .

I prefer talk of "Finals" window - which should be kept in house but aspired to every year . The fans can say what they like , what matters is results on the field .

Neeld and co. will hopefully bring a zero tolerance to losing . Even against the best sides . The playing group needs to develop a much harder edge . The Coaching staff can develop this but the players themselves need to have a burning desire to succeed . A major increase in contested possessions out of the middle would be a good start and that's one of the areas that Mark Neeld would be concentrating on you'd reckon .

Can we play finals this year ? You betcha we can . There's enough talent and our draw isn't difficult .

Cheers

Edited January 29, 201213 yr by Macca

Exactly, UTAH. There is no way you would pick Howe, who plays pretty much the same role as Darling, and Darling in the same draft.

As an interesting exercise (that may or may not be of any importance) would everyone rather have Cook + Howe, or Darling + another player between pick 34 and 50?

Darling and Luke Parker would have been a nice haul, or even Josh Green if he didn't go a pick before Howe.

In the end, I'm happier with who we got.

Mcdonald at 56 or what ever could be the best pick of all also

...and that is a concern. There's not much to like in our over 25's with the exception of Jamar so a lot is going to hinge on the Frawley, Garland, Grimes, Clark, Jurrah, Jones, Bail etc. group of 22-25's and Trengove, Watts, Blease, Howe, McDonald and co realising their potential.

It will also be interesting to see how many of the Gold Coast and GWS kids get poached after their 2 year contracts expire.

and when you read it like that there are not many other clubs who have youngsters of that quality who have there best years ahead of them. This group as I have said on many other posts will form the nucleaus of our side for the next 10 years and the kids coming through like the Vineys etc will learn from this lot like the Cats kids all look so polished with the bigger bodies helping them out. On top of that it is Trengove, Frawley, Jones and Watts who along with Grimes will be the leaders on and off the field and are currently changing the culture.

As MFC supporters we are used to these names and therefore we are rather biased in this assessment. I could almost guarantee that there's just as many Tigers, Bombers and Roo's supporters out there saying the same thing about their crop of youngsters.

Our hopes now rest with a new coaching group, a new game plan and culture of winning at any cost.

F@&$ I can't wait for Round 1.