Barry Prendergast gone

[3031 11]

I think some of Lucas Cook's detractors are being overly and unfairly critical of him and Barry Prendergast for drafting him ahead of Jack Darling.

Firstly, they are two different types and although both are forwards they fit different requirements at their respective clubs. As Old55 pointed out above, Darling was usually the third or fourth tall in the Eagles' attack. He had the mature body, was ready to go as a player rarely pitted against the opposition's best defenders and he prospered as a result.

Rightly or wrongly, Darling was not considered an appropriate top 20 selection by many clubs. Not just Melbourne, but most of the other AFL clubs had the opportunity to take him.

Cook was always going to take longer to develop but in his under 18 year, he was All Australian CHF. The club knew he wouldn't be a ready made player.

He impressed in his brief time on the ground in the first NAB games in February, and while he wasn't outstanding at Casey, he did show promise in the first half of the season including the day he kicked four goals at CHF against Collingwood VFL. He was patchy in other games but there were enough brief cameos from him to suggest that he had the skills to develop into an important player for the club when he matures and develops physically to his capacity.

Late in the season, after a couple of poor games, he was dropped to the reserves and subsequently we learned that he had undergone hip surgery.

I don't believe the club has ever divulged whether there was a direct connection between the drop off in form and the injury, but my guess is that there was one.

We don't even know the nature of the injury and, given that he was reported on a couple of occasions in pre season training as showing signs of distress, I wonder how long he carried the ailment before it was diagnosed and on the flip side, how much his recovery has been held back because of the problem.

In any event, one doesn't know whether the hip issue (whatever it is/was) was evident when the draft took place and I don't believe the fact we took him should be taken as a black mark against BP's recruiting record.

As for the player, he's the type you need to allow a few year's development before you know exactly how good he's going to be.

Well expressed WJ.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

You make it your melodrama like this^ carry on nonsense when you've been nailed. Time and again it happens WYL. And each time you've try and turn it on Rhino. You even tried it on AoB recently. Own up when being held to account instead of [censored] footing around and denying what you have factually stated. It's not good form. If you owned up to half the stuff you're held to account for, this forum would improve somewhat !

Big Statement there HT. When was the Gospel written according to you!! I have my opinions as do you and others. Nobody has nailed me. Back it off sunshine...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I have my opinions as do you and others. Nobody has nailed me. Back it off sunshine...

HT is spot on about you. Other posters have also made correct assessments of your strange foibles WYL recently. But as usual.... Time and time again you dont stand behind your comments or opinions at all when challenged. In your mind nobody could nail you.It must be a wonderful place. But you are pants continually on this Forum by all and sundry regularly. And its often cringeworthy and blatently obvious to all but you. Reminds me of a famous ship years ago... "Iceberg what iceberg!!" . I am not surprised with your ludicrous efforts to hide from your comments you cant admit to them even when they have been quoted back under your nose. Nice bit of tuff talk at the end. Sweet bit of melodrama. You do make me laugh WYL. I will give you that. I dont doubt your passion for MFC. Cant argue with it all. Well done. Its just everything else that's doubtful. Oh I expect some rousing response too. Chipper stuff.

[Range Rover 1,935]

I think some of Lucas Cook's detractors are being overly and unfairly critical of him and Barry Prendergast for drafting him ahead of Jack Darling.

Firstly, they are two different types and although both are forwards they fit different requirements at their respective clubs. As Old55 pointed out above, Darling was usually the third or fourth tall in the Eagles' attack. He had the mature body, was ready to go as a player rarely pitted against the opposition's best defenders and he prospered as a result.

Rightly or wrongly, Darling was not considered an appropriate top 20 selection by many clubs. Not just Melbourne, but most of the other AFL clubs had the opportunity to take him.

Cook was always going to take longer to develop but in his under 18 year, he was All Australian CHF. The club knew he wouldn't be a ready made player.

He impressed in his brief time on the ground in the first NAB games in February, and while he wasn't outstanding at Casey, he did show promise in the first half of the season including the day he kicked four goals at CHF against Collingwood VFL. He was patchy in other games but there were enough brief cameos from him to suggest that he had the skills to develop into an important player for the club when he matures and develops physically to his capacity.

Late in the season, after a couple of poor games, he was dropped to the reserves and subsequently we learned that he had undergone hip surgery.

I don't believe the club has ever divulged whether there was a direct connection between the drop off in form and the injury, but my guess is that there was one.

We don't even know the nature of the injury and, given that he was reported on a couple of occasions in pre season training as showing signs of distress, I wonder how long he carried the ailment before it was diagnosed and on the flip side, how much his recovery has been held back because of the problem.

In any event, one doesn't know whether the hip issue (whatever it is/was) was evident when the draft took place and I don't believe the fact we took him should be taken as a black mark against BP's recruiting record.

As for the player, he's the type you need to allow a few year's development before you know exactly how good he's going to be.

The error in this opinion is to regard the pro-Darling camp as Cook 'detractors'. Ron Burgundy has set out our argument well, which is ... essentially ... that we luxuriantly opted for (another) five-year project player when we had a ready-made beauty staring us in the face.

It's not a slight on Cook to opine that Darling will be the more valuable player over time. It is, however, a slight on Prendergast whose recruiting seemed too often to be focused on the 'upside' of players rather than on the 'nowside'.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

HT is spot on about you. Other posters have also made correct assessments of your strange foibles WYL recently. But as usual.... Time and time again you dont stand behind your comments or opinions at all when challenged. In your mind nobody could nail you.It must be a wonderful place. But you are pants continually on this Forum by all and sundry regularly. And its often cringeworthy and blatently obvious to all but you. Reminds me of a famous ship years ago... "Iceberg what iceberg!!" . I am not surprised with your ludicrous efforts to hide from your comments you cant admit to them even when they have been quoted back under your nose. Nice bit of tuff talk at the end. Sweet bit of melodrama. You do make me laugh WYL. I will give you that. I dont doubt your passion for MFC. Cant argue with it all. Well done. Its just everything else that's doubtful. Oh I expect some rousing response too. Chipper stuff.

I hide behind nothing Rhino. There is no prize on here. Just peoples opinions. Your continual trolling old posts and continual aggression i find very tiresome as you also somehow have the authority to suspend people from this board.

What is wrong with reviewing an earlier post from April 2011 on my opinion of a player to what it is now 9 months later, after the sh!thouse year the club just had??

I hope Cook is a beauty, but right now i have my doubts...Jack Darling barring injuries looks to be a gun. We had the chance to pick him up but didn't. A shame in my book.

That is all i have ever said on this thread...i am not hiding anything and certainly have not been nailed by you or anybody. Do you enjoy tearing strips off people on a daily basis?? And for what purpose? This is an opinion discussion board. Nothing more.

Not the Spanish inquisition, but no doubt you will disagree.

[Carlos Danger 380]

The error in this opinion is to regard the pro-Darling camp as Cook 'detractors'. Ron Burgundy has set out our argument well, which is ... essentially ... that we luxuriantly opted for (another) five-year project player when we had a ready-made beauty staring us in the face.

It's not a slight on Cook to opine that Darling will be the more valuable player over time. It is, however, a slight on Prendergast whose recruiting seemed too often to be focused on the 'upside' of players rather than on the 'nowside'.

Dude you obviously and literally have no idea.

The 'pro-Darling camp' as you put it sound like a bunch of impatient types with little to no knowledge of how the drafting/development process works. In any case I think the 'camp' is best suited for the Weagles. That way you get to belt one out for Darling and cheer for the team at the same time.

[Macca 16,961]

I hide behind nothing Rhino. There is no prize on here. Just peoples opinions. Your continual trolling old posts and continual aggression i find very tiresome as you also somehow have the authority to suspend people from this board.

What is wrong with reviewing an earlier post from April 2011 on my opinion of a player to what it is now 9 months later, after the sh!thouse year the club just had??

I hope Cook is a beauty, but right now i have my doubts...Jack Darling barring injuries looks to be a gun. We had the chance to pick him up but didn't. A shame in my book.

That is all i have ever said on this thread...i am not hiding anything and certainly have not been nailed by you or anybody. Do you enjoy tearing strips off people on a daily basis?? And for what purpose? This is an opinion discussion board. Nothing more.

Not the Spanish inquisition, but no doubt you will disagree.

I agree Wyl , how can an "Opinion" made 9 months ago be a contradiction ? It's not . It's just an opinion . Events happen in between and then we have another opinion . So what !

As an example , my opinion of Clint Bartram has changed a lot in 12 months . I now see him as a real "Goer" who has earnt his spot in the side . 12 months ago I saw him differently . That , for some , might seem like a contradiction but it's not .

My opinion on Cook is that we may have to wait 3-4 years or even longer to see if he's going to be a good player . Jack Watts has taken a bit of time to get going . And he still isn't a monty for CHF . Hope he is . CHB might be his go .

I remember RDB saying that we may not see the best of David Cordner until he's 28 years old ( or words to that effect ) ..........

Edited January 26, 2012 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

I agree Wyl , how can an "Opinion" made 9 months ago be a contradiction ? It's not . It's just an opinion . Events happen in between and then we have another opinion . So what !

As an example , my opinion of Clint Bartram has changed dramatically in 12 months . I now see him as a real "Goer" who has earn't his spot in the side . 12 months ago I saw him differently . That , for some , might seem like a contradiction but it's not .

Thankyou Macca. Nice to read a little sanity!

[Lutz 76]

The error in this opinion is to regard the pro-Darling camp as Cook 'detractors'. Ron Burgundy has set out our argument well, which is ... essentially ... that we luxuriantly opted for (another) five-year project player when we had a ready-made beauty staring us in the face.

It's not a slight on Cook to opine that Darling will be the more valuable player over time. It is, however, a slight on Prendergast whose recruiting seemed too often to be focused on the 'upside' of players rather than on the 'nowside'.

That view would be relevant if they were clones destined to develop at different paces, or even were in any way the same type of player.

[old55 23,547]

It is, however, a slight on Prendergast whose recruiting seemed too often to be focused on the 'upside' of players rather than on the 'nowside'.

Wayne Hughes didn't agree with you and Scott Clayton didn't agree with you 8 times.

Edited January 26, 2012 by old55

[furious d 464]

Cook wasn't drafted to play 3rd or 4th tall, ever. He's a KPP.

The question on Darling was could he ever become a KPP at AFL level. It's a question that won't have to be asked at West Coast for a few years yet. The kid will have time to build his body while learning the ropes as 3rd or 4th tall, but it's not certain he'll ever end up a KPP.

We were desperate to draft a KPP and whichever option we went for was going to take time. Darling may have given us something now but he was never going to hold down FF in his first few seasons. My guess is that BP saw Cook as the better long term KPP prospect. Time will tell if he was right.

The hindsight experts are claiming victory way too early. If Cook ends up a KPP and Darling doesn't BP will have been 100% correct.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

What is wrong with reviewing an earlier post from April 2011 on my opinion of a player to what it is now 9 months later, after the sh!thouse year the club just had??

I hope Cook is a beauty, but right now i have my doubts...Jack Darling barring injuries looks to be a gun. We had the chance to pick him up but didn't. A shame in my book.

That is all i have ever said on this thread...i am not hiding anything and certainly have not been nailed by you or anybody.

You were telling others in April 2011 to be patient with Cook and spoke him up but he is young. You acknowledged that a KPF takes some years to develop. You have never seen him and have relied on 2nd and 3rd hand reports that his 1st year was challenging and now you are making claims that Darling was the obvious choice. Firstly the conditions of April 2011 that was the basis of your judgement on the timeframe for KPF have not changed. And given you have not seen Cook how can you say that one player would have been interchangeable for the other given what they were recruited for. Others have clearly explained the role Darling had at WCE( maybe you had not seen him play) where he wa/s 3rd4th KPF in line behind Josh Kennedy, Quentin Lynch, NikNat etc.

A best you have are toying with hindsight in the absence of needed foresight

i am not hiding anything and certainly have not been nailed by you or anybody.

As usual you would be the last person to ever work that out, WYL.

The question on Darling was could he ever become a KPP at AFL level. It's a question that won't have to be asked at West Coast for a few years yet. The kid will have time to build his body while learning the ropes as 3rd or 4th tall, but it's not certain he'll ever end up a KPP.

We were desperate to draft a KPP and whichever option we went for was going to take time. Darling may have given us something now but he was never going to hold down FF in his first few seasons. My guess is that BP saw Cook as the better long term KPP prospect. Time will tell if he was right.

Fair assessment.

Both Darling and Cook could well be good players over the courses of their careers and do so playing completely different roles. But after only one year its pure folly to claim that we missed a red hot opportunity. There were clearly assessed risks with Darling by all 15 Clubs and while WCE got a good first year player, they could have easily got a cultural sore. Very few here were crowing for Darling at that 2010 draft and those championing hindsight on Prendergast were not the ones visible back on the draft.

.

[H_T 3,043]

I hide behind nothing Rhino.

That is all i have ever said on this thread...i am not hiding anything and certainly have not been nailed by you or anybody.

I call bullsh!t ! Again !

Read #178, #179, #180, #181, #184 of this thread. Let it sink in, then let it sink in again.

I'm tipping it will still go straight through the keeper, WYL.

FFS, grow some plums and admit it, for once.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

I call bullsh!t ! Again !

Read #178, #179, #180, #181, #184 of this thread. Let it sink in, then let it sink in again.

I'm tipping it will still go straight through the keeper, WYL.

FFS, grow some plums and admit it, for once.

yep just read all those threads again. I said what i said. I stand by it. And am not hiding behind anything. My balls have grown quite enough HT. Have a nice day mate!

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

You were telling others in April 2011 to be patient with Cook and spoke him up but he is young. You acknowledged that a KPF takes some years to develop. You have never seen him and have relied on 2nd and 3rd hand reports that his 1st year was challenging and now you are making claims that Darling was the obvious choice. Firstly the conditions of April 2011 that was the basis of your judgement on the timeframe for KPF have not changed. And given you have not seen Cook how can you say that one player would have been interchangeable for the other given what they were recruited for. Others have clearly explained the role Darling had at WCE( maybe you had not seen him play) where he wa/s 3rd4th KPF in line behind Josh Kennedy, Quentin Lynch, NikNat etc.

A best you have are toying with hindsight in the absence of needed foresight

As usual you would be the last person to ever work that out, WYL.

Fair assessment.

Both Darling and Cook could well be good players over the courses of their careers and do so playing completely different roles. But after only one year its pure folly to claim that we missed a red hot opportunity. There were clearly assessed risks with Darling by all 15 Clubs and while WCE got a good first year player, they could have easily got a cultural sore. Very few here were crowing for Darling at that 2010 draft and those championing hindsight on Prendergast were not the ones visible back on the draft.

.

More Rhino ramble....not everyone agrees with your arguements... Back off the personal attacks and hopefully we can all get along. After the 2011 debacle posts written in April of that year can be revised, and should be. The club evolves..maybe you don't.

You don't want Jack Darling at MFC. Iwish we did have him. That's the end of the discussion....get over it.

[H_T 3,043]

As long as you stand by your indecisive and inconsistent remarks such as the confirmed quotes of yours I re-quoted and old55's link that should leave you embarrased, fine - you can now step out of that icy-cold water.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

The hindsight experts are claiming victory way too early. If Cook ends up a KPP and Darling doesn't BP will have been 100% correct.

No one's claiming 'victory' here, furious d. I think we understand the reasons underlying Cook's recruitment. It's footy - this is all pretty simple stuff.

Some people here are trying to have a mature discussion about some of our recent recruiting decisions. I find that interesting, particularly given that we have a new coach who seems to be taking the list in a different direction. I am personally very interested to read the views on these issues from people who know a lot more about this stuff than me (eg, Whispering Jack - great post by the way). It helps me to better understand where our list is at.

And if one thing's clear to me, it's that all regular posters here love the club and want to see the club succeed. I highly doubt anyone has any interest in seeing Cook not succeed.

The pettiness between posters that often comes into these threads is pathetic and unintelligent. And it doesn't actually add anything meaningful either. But then again, some people absolutely love to be right. Or be seen to be right at least. What they don't seem to realise though is that it's not actually about them - the interesting stuff is in the arguments being put forward and the underlying issue being discussed.

[old dee 23,787]

No one's claiming 'victory' here, furious d. I think we understand the reasons underlying Cook's recruitment. It's footy - this is all pretty simple stuff.

Some people here are trying to have a mature discussion about some of our recent recruiting decisions. I find that interesting, particularly given that we have a new coach who seems to be taking the list in a different direction. I am personally very interested to read the views on these issues from people who know a lot more about this stuff than me (eg, Whispering Jack - great post by the way). It helps me to better understand where our list is at.

And if one thing's clear to me, it's that all regular posters here love the club and want to see the club succeed. I highly doubt anyone has any interest in seeing Cook not succeed.

The pettiness between posters that often comes into these threads is pathetic and unintelligent. And it doesn't actually add anything meaningful either. But then again, some people absolutely love to be right. Or be seen to be right at least. What they don't seem to realise though is that it's not actually about them - the interesting stuff is in the arguments being put forward and the underlying issue being discussed.

Just saved me typing 9 lines RB.

Spot on I could not have put it better.

[H_T 3,043]

Back off the personal attacks and hopefully we can all get along.

They are not personal attacks. Simply highlighting your errors as such, which you continually fail to recognise.

If you recognised them and acknowledged them, such 'debate' and 'holding you to account', wouldn't take place.

No one's claiming 'victory' here, furious d.

But, those who are jumping up and down about BP's selection and non selection of Darling are somewhat claiming a "balls up" that seems premature to those intelligent enough to realise, given it's year one for both draftees !

[old dee 23,787]

They are not personal attacks. Simply highlighting your errors as such, which you continually fail to recognise.

If you recognised them and acknowledged them, such 'debate' and 'holding you to account', wouldn't take place.

But, those who are jumping up and down about BP's selection and non selection of Darling are somewhat claiming a "balls up" that seems premature to those intelligent enough to realise, given it's year one for both draftees !

So from that comment H_T I can only assume that we are not allowed to discuss a draft selection at the end of year 1.

So is it ok to discuss at the end of year 2?

Or perhaps we have to wait till year 3?

Perhaps someone who goes early and ends up being right might actually be more 'Intelligent" !!!!!!!!!

Sorry but in my view we can discuss a drafting decision at any point without being unintelligent.

If you go too early then you run the risk of making a error and having to live with that comment.

[H_T 3,043]

Of course you can discuss selections, old dee. And yes, to living with it.

If you think BP pulled the trigger on the wrong selection, after 12 months ... nothing wrong with communicating that. I just believe those who do backflips and deny any such previous statements that are somewhat inconsistent with their current view, or move the goalposts to suit themselves should be held accountable. Which , I'm sure you agree.

You may have missed previous discussion in this thread, that I allude to.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

More Rhino ramble....not everyone agrees with your arguements... Back off the personal attacks and hopefully we can all get along. After the 2011 debacle posts written in April of that year can be revised, and should be. The club evolves..maybe you don't.

You don't want Jack Darling at MFC. Iwish we did have him. That's the end of the discussion....get over it.

The word is argument. There were no personal attacks more observations dealing with your melodrama. Its amazing you refer to soime "debacle" but you cant accept any discussion of Stynes over his past 12 month performance and the person who was sacked at the height of "debacle" Bailey you would have him back. Some debacle.

And once again misstating another persons point of view is disingenious at best. Why do you do that?Another "hiding" tactic possibly. Its no wonder you cant particpate functionally in discussions on this Forum, I have never said anything of the sort about Darling. Dont worry WYL I am well over it. But you do make me laugh. Thanks for that,

[rumpole 515]

The error in this opinion is to regard the pro-Darling camp as Cook 'detractors'. Ron Burgundy has set out our argument well, which is ... essentially ... that we luxuriantly opted for (another) five-year project player when we had a ready-made beauty staring us in the face.

It's not a slight on Cook to opine that Darling will be the more valuable player over time. It is, however, a slight on Prendergast whose recruiting seemed too often to be focused on the 'upside' of players rather than on the 'nowside'.

Pure semantics really, isn't it?

Those who are anti Cook and pro Darling are arguing that Cook was drafted too early and that someone taken much later should have been picked ahead of him.

IMO that's being a detractor.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Those who are anti Cook and pro Darling are arguing that Cook was drafted too early and that someone taken much later should have been picked ahead of him.

I'm pro Cook and pro Darling. I love Darling and don't see him being confined to the 3 or 4th tall role as some on here, but I also like what I've seen of Cook and cannot fathom why some are getting edgy already. It's illogical and shows a lack of understanding of skinny under developed talls. And that's irrespective of whether he makes it or not. And no, I'm not having a bet each way.

[H_T 3,043]

I'm pro Cook and pro Darling. I love Darling and don't see him being confined to the 3 or 4th tall role as some on here, but I also like what I've seen of Cook and cannot fathom why some are getting edgy already. It's illogical and shows a lack of understanding of skinny under developed talls. And that's irrespective of whether he makes it or not. And no, I'm not having a bet each way.

My thoughts precisely.