gut running is the choice of the player, they have to decide to push themselves to the limit, past what is comfortable to the point at which they are dry retching or vomiting, it must come from within the player, the coach unfortunately has no control over whether a player will push to these extremes....yes mate i'm gutted too but we are a young team, i know its the old excuse but it is pertinent, you cant just click your fingers and play like a Collingwood, Geelong or Hawthorn, it takes years and many pre-seasons.

Agree if you are only picking up the "gut running" point, I had coupled it to leading and making position. Maybe the Coach can have a small influence on gut running, though, if he can inspire his players to do it, some Coaches obviously succeed. That said, many players won't or can't.

Just wondering if anyone knows the average age of the two teams that played?

Agree with a lot of what's been written. Wanted to add one thing: when we get going with the whole run and carry thing, some players are able and willing to run with purpose and deliver long handballs or kicks to moving targets or else shorter balls after drawing contact from an opposition player. Others, and our big men, who have been generally very good otherwise, are perhaps the worst here, seem to treat these flying handball chains like training and telegraph mindless "one two" passes to runners who either get tackled or else risk an intercept en route (Martin, Hodge - 2nd or 3rd quarter?).

Despite my agreeing that Dunn and Bate won't play finals for Melbourne, they both regularly provide a short "get out" leading target when things go wrong - and most others don't.

Anonther disappointing replay to watch over here in Europe. I don't think Frawley gets enough air time in these threads. F*ing legend, favourite player by far another stellar job down back. Needed more from Watts and can't wait to see Davey back in the side.

Frawley was wacked yesterday. At times he looked unfit, slow to react and disinterested. If that was a stellar job I'd hate to see him have a bad game

Frawley was wacked yesterday. At times he looked unfit, slow to react and disinterested. If that was a stellar job I'd hate to see him have a bad game

Yes, Buddy kicked 5. Cunning remark though. I disagree that he looked unfit. I think it was Buddy's sharpness that found out Chip on occassions. Timed leads well, by turning Frawley around and some stellar execution of kicks to Buddy's advantage which found out Frawley when he'd taken his eyes off the ball for a split second. Buddy is just a super athlete and would make anyone look second rate..or even appear unfit.

I don't need a lie down, I'm having a great time with last nights win and our win in Darwin And Webber is in front & soon I'll watch Cadel take Le Tour.

I'm not bothered by a loss this week and a win next at this stage of our development, as I can see the development taking place in the bigger picture.

Our list has never looked better, so I'm not going to get Upset,,, unless we continue to play players who will Not show the required courage in the Red 'N' Blue Jumper. So while I was hopefull of a win today the way the game unfolded showed what we were capable of today following the Darwin Heat.

I'll say a few words to excite the Real Dees supporters. Trengove, Watts, Martin, Tapscott, Bail, Gysberts, Howe, Cook, Gawn, Evans, Nicholson, Strauss, TMcDonald, Davis, Fitzpatrick,,,,

Its my understanding that players lost 4 kilos of weight in Darwin - a significant amount considering they are already lean so I expect we shouldnt underestimate the impact of Darwin. Hawthorn after a rest and with champs back and with the Jeans memorial I see progress - Howe with 3, Martin with 20 possessions - there is hope but it wont come as soon as we want.

Frawley was wacked yesterday. At times he looked unfit, slow to react and disinterested. If that was a stellar job I'd hate to see him have a bad game

You have to be kidding.

I can think of twice all day where Frawley was beaten. On one of those occasions, he would rightly have expected Col Garland to give him a chop out.

Disinterested? Ah, no.

And Buddy is no Michael Newton.

Feel really bad for saying this, but after 10mins of listening to the game I switched off. It was all Hawthorn's way and I could already tell what result was coming. I just could not be arsed listening to yet another 10 goal thumping.

Yeah, fairweather maybe, but isn't anyone else just sick of us failing to turn up at all against quality opposition?

Some of the negative remarks made in this thread amaze me. People turning off after the first 10 minutes for example. Yes it was deplorable, but we then kicked 3 quick goals in a row jus afterwards. We hung in there for a long time - admittedly it always looked like we'd fall away, but we didn't throw in the towel. I don't recall the TV commentators mentioning the usual effects of post-Darwin games, but maybe the odd Demons supporter might. Clearly we lack the skills and the bodies - but who thought otherwise before the first whistle went? So why be so depressed when the inevitable happens and the miracle didn't.

Good analysis, and lets hope that we are only a few years away from being (at least) competitive against the top 8 sides.

Unfortunately there is also the argument to say that 4 years into a rebuilding period we should / could be much better. Hawthorn are the case study of how it is possible (note - this is certainly not a saying that it is a guarantee) to rebuild within 4 years to be competitive:

2003 = 12 wins (just missed finals / basically a finals side) Schwabb in charge

2004 = 4 wins Schwabb in charge

2005 = 5 wins Clarkson in charge (Start of rebuild)

2006 = 9 wins Clarkson in charge (2nd year of rebuild)

2007 = 14 wins (finals) (3rd year of rebuild)

2008 = 20 wins (Premiership) (4th year of rebuild).

In reality 2003 the Hawks were very unlucky not to play finals. I also am the first to agree that they got their drafting spot on when they did bottom out. Well done to them.

Compare the above to MFC:

2006 = 13 wins (played finals but were lucky to scrape in - one more win than the hawks had in 2003) (Daniher in charge)

2007 = 5 wins (Daniher in charge)

2008 = 3 wins (Bailey in charge) (Start of rebuild)

2009 = 4 wins (Bailey in charge) (2nd year of rebuild)

2010 = 8 wins (Bailey in charge) (3rd year of rebuild)

2011 = ?? wins (Bailey in charge) (4th season of rebuild) (Not competitive against top 8 sides)

I agree that 4 years is NO guarantee to play finals and be competitive against top 8 sides, just look at Richmonds five year plan.

But what I cant stand hearing about is our list is young, our list cant compete as a result of youth. We are getting better, but we are not there yet. 4 years CAN get you back to competitive levels, it just hasn't for us.

I just don't think we can hang our hat on us getting better because we bottomed out say 4-5 years ago. Instead we need to critically evaluate if we are set up right and if we have the necessary players to get there.

I guess what I am saying is that constantly feeling how ordinary we have been for the last 4-5 years, I was really hoping we were better than we are now (maybe to optimistic and expecting too much) and I also worry about how we are going to improve considerably for season 2012.

The Hawks and Hodge, Campbell, Crawford, just to name a few. That's a pretty awesome leadership group right there. We are considerably young I'd say.

The Hawks and Hodge, Campbell, Crawford, just to name a few. That's a pretty awesome leadership group right there. We are considerably young I'd say.

Good call - their leadership was very very good. I am also listening to the common theme here that our leadership needs to stand up and be counted.

I reckon before this season started though that we would have said Brad Green (All Australian) was a good leader and a great player. This season that has come unstuck, who knows if it is solely the captaincy or him getting older or the side not delivering the footy well enough or all three.

Bruce might have been a good older player with experience, but fact is that he wanted to get out and we were not that fussed to lose him given our youth policy.

Junior was our Vandenberg, but is not out there so we do miss his leadership. Whether or not he would be picked on merit and form this season is something that I cant be sure of (and neither can anyone else)

I guess the other thing that is REALLY important to consider is that I don't believe that Hawks tanked in their first season of rebuild. (We MAY have.....). So I guess there is an argument to say that the real benefits of the rebuild are perhaps a year delayed. But I cant stomach that as an excuse for not having improved a bit more.

Fact is that we have turned the list over and perhaps gone so youthful that it has hurt us. Cant remember the Hawks team being as young as us.

My personal opinion is that we MAY have got carried away with the notion of draft picks to the detriment of developing a winning culture. This is fixable, but there is little doubt that it can lead to issues (i.e. some of this playing group have will have won - if they are lucky and not injured in any of the winning games - a total of 30* out of 110 games since 2007 - surely this is not developing a winning mentality....)

*Assumes we can beat Richmond, GC and Port coming home this year.

Well. No surprise for me. Hawks once again showing us how much we lack big, fit bodies.

I don't think we were ever going to win them when we have Gysberts, Nicholson, Bennell and Strauss. Just far too small against the Hawks stronger, fitter opponents. Although i'm happy those 4 got game time.

Darwin may have played a factor. We looked bloody tired in the last quarter and a half.

Hawks always seemed to have extra bodies around the ball.

In hindsight Bartram would have been a good option.

Can we get a tackle to stick? Please.

Bartram is a modest player who has been injured, shown little at Casey on his return

Good call - their leadership was very very good. I am also listening to the common theme here that our leadership needs to stand up and be counted.

I reckon before this season started though that we would have said Brad Green (All Australian) was a good leader and a great player. This season that has come unstuck, who knows if it is solely the captaincy or him getting older or the side not delivering the footy well enough or all three.

Bruce might have been a good older player with experience, but fact is that he wanted to get out and we were not that fussed to lose him given our youth policy.

Junior was our Vandenberg, but is not out there so we do miss his leadership. Whether or not he would be picked on merit and form this season is something that I cant be sure of (and neither can anyone else)

I guess the other thing that is REALLY important to consider is that I don't believe that Hawks tanked in their first season of rebuild. (We MAY have.....). So I guess there is an argument to say that the real benefits of the rebuild are perhaps a year delayed. But I cant stomach that as an excuse for not having improved a bit more.

Fact is that we have turned the list over and perhaps gone so youthful that it has hurt us. Cant remember the Hawks team being as young as us.

My personal opinion is that we MAY have got carried away with the notion of draft picks to the detriment of developing a winning culture. This is fixable, but there is little doubt that it can lead to issues (i.e. some of this playing group have will have won - if they are lucky and not injured in any of the winning games - a total of 30* out of 110 games since 2007 - surely this is not developing a winning mentality....)

*Assumes we can beat Richmond, GC and Port coming home this year.

Bruce wanted to stay, but club wouldn't guarantee they wouldn't try younger players on the basis of experiment and not form, hence the possibility of having to go back to Casey just to give kids a go. And one year was all the club were interested in. He wanted to stay, but the club had lost interest in him.

This is why we are we are. We consider players like sylvia as stars when they wouldn't even

Rank in the top 50 players in the league.

He is overrrated by us