The No T$ No B$ Thread

[daisycutter 29,783]

4 minutes ago, Biffen said:

In reference to Greek inventiveness.

Immediately people jumped to other less noble Hellenic traditions.

but what could be more perfect than Democracy?

i'm sure athen's slave population would agree, biiffo, and not forgetting the women of athens too. does sound rather practical, but.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,250]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

Good thing Rumpelstiltzkin wasn't around then. 

Indeed! I'm not sure how I'd go living in Rumpsey.

[daisycutter 29,783]

5 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Indeed! I'm not sure how I'd go living in Rumpsey.

seems cricket is also into the "great bloke" syndrome, kiwi player called colin de grandhomme 

[Bitter but optimistic 22,250]

2 hours ago, daisycutter said:

seems cricket is also into the "great bloke" syndrome, kiwi player called colin de grandhomme 

Watched him today. Sir Richard Hadlee he aint!

[beelzebub 23,383]

On 12/4/2016 at 8:30 PM, Moonshadow said:

Bah! ...What have the Romans ever done for civilisation?

[Redleg 41,642]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

I prefer my Demons cup.

[old dee 23,881]

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Actually I think the PFJ actually won this one in the end.

[Earl Hood 6,103]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Gee that looks a lot like my Judean People's Front mug!

[Red and Bluebeard 2,101]

7 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Gee that looks a lot like my Judean People's Front mug!

Not to mention my Front People's of Judea one ... or my Judean Front of the People one, or ...

[dino rover 714]

Romsey on Selling houses Australia (7two)!

I had no idea how mission brown it is!

Property prices going ballistic but some of the residents dont seem to be quite as erudite as those Romseians posting here.

Please explain

Is it optimare vs populare?

 

[xarronn 384]

On 6 December 2016 at 10:08 AM, daisycutter said:

i'm sure athen's slave population would agree, biiffo, and not forgetting the women of athens too. does sound rather practical, but.

Damn good points. Let's also not forget they had no National Disability Scheme, no Gonski funding, to overcome disadvantage. Very backward in technology as well, no Facebook, Twitter or Youtube? As for their Climate change policies, don't get me started. 

Man, those ancient Greeks, totally over rated!!!

[daisycutter 29,783]

51 minutes ago, xarronn said:

Damn good points. Let's also not forget they had no National Disability Scheme, no Gonski funding, to overcome disadvantage. Very backward in technology as well, no Facebook, Twitter or Youtube? As for their Climate change policies, don't get me started. 

Man, those ancient Greeks, totally over rated!!!

don't forget misogynist pedophiles. they didn't have tfs either, which would be in their favour

[Bitter but optimistic 22,250]

12 hours ago, dino rover said:

Romsey on Selling houses Australia (7two)!

I had no idea how mission brown it is!

Property prices going ballistic but some of the residents dont seem to be quite as erudite as those Romseians posting here.

Please explain

Is it optimare vs populare?

 

Seems ordinaire to my good self.

However, thank you for that information Dino. While there have been rumours of poverty in Romsey it is not something the genteel class have much to do with.

Although good old Bitter does toss a few trinkets under the giving tree each year -  they must go somewhere.

[Redleg 41,642]

 

Interesting that Kate Sheahan, Mike's daughter, was rung by Gill to play in the women's league.

In an interview she said,  she played until 14 and then one game for Uni in 2006, when she broke her wrist and that was it.

So she has played one game of footy since she was 14, 20 years ago and that game was 10 years ago and the AFL boss finds the time to ring her to play.

Not knocking women's footy, but says a lot about the quality of players.

It also says a lot about the time preferences of the AFL Chief, who can't find the time to even pop in to the negotiations for the CBA, the single most important agenda item ATM for the AFL.  

 

[beelzebub 23,383]

Gill's distracted.....polo season ol' boy !!

[xarronn 384]

4 hours ago, Redleg said:

 

Interesting that Kate Sheahan, Mike's daughter, was rung by Gill to play in the women's league.

In an interview she said,  she played until 14 and then one game for Uni in 2006, when she broke her wrist and that was it.

So she has played one game of footy since she was 14, 20 years ago and that game was 10 years ago and the AFL boss finds the time to ring her to play.

Not knocking women's footy, but says a lot about the quality of players.

It also says a lot about the time preferences of the AFL Chief, who can't find the time to even pop in to the negotiations for the CBA, the single most important agenda item ATM for the AFL.  

 

1. He clearly is not one of the negotiators.

2. These negotiations have been going on for quite a while. He would be updated regularly on the state of play, for what purpose would he 'pop'in?

3. Not that it matters, but how do you know he didn't make the call in his time?

4. Are you saying he is not allowed to allocate some of his time to women's footy? This is a new addition to the CEO's responsibilities.

[Redleg 41,642]

On 10/12/2016 at 4:24 PM, xarronn said:

1. He clearly is not one of the negotiators.

2. These negotiations have been going on for quite a while. He would be updated regularly on the state of play, for what purpose would he 'pop'in?

3. Not that it matters, but how do you know he didn't make the call in his time?

4. Are you saying he is not allowed to allocate some of his time to women's footy? This is a new addition to the CEO's responsibilities.

1. He may not be one of the negotiators, but he is the CEO of the AFL and this is the single biggest issue ATM of the AFL, with its biggest asset, the players.

2. He would pop in, if for no other reason than to show respect, as stated by Dangerfield, to player delegates who have flown in from all over Australia.

3. I don't know if he did make a call, but from what Dangerfield said, it appears he didn't.

4. Of course he is allowed to allocate some time to women's footy, but they weren't playing the last couple of days.

How hard would it be to pop down to Torquay and if nothing else, welcome the guys and have a drink or a meal with them and give them some encouragement on the issue.

When that is added to the comment of Dangerfield, that the AFL has refused to discuss the issue for the last month, it is not a great look.

From the AFL site:

GEELONG superstar Patrick Dangerfield has called on the AFL to show the players more respect after League CEO Gillon McLachlan chose not to attend their annual two-day conference.

AFL Players Association delegates gathered on Thursday and Friday in Torquay in western Victoria amid increasingly tense pay negotiations and the possibility of a pre-season strike. 

McLachlan declined an invitation to attend, with executives Ray Gunston and Andrew Dillon sent instead to present to the AFLPA board.

Dangerfield, a member of the AFLPA board, said players were disappointed with McLachlan's no-show and the League's approach to the long-running negotiations.  

"It's been difficult to negotiate (and) the AFL have been really difficult in coming to the table … they haven't spoken to the PA in the past month," Dangerfield said.   

"So to get this opportunity today was wonderful, albeit without the CEO in attendance.

"There were some disappointed players who flew across the country to be here yesterday and today, and we were perhaps looking for a little bit more respect than what we got.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,101]

On 10/12/2016 at 11:05 PM, Redleg said:

1. He may not be one of the negotiators, but he is the CEO of the AFL and this is the single biggest issue ATM of the AFL, with its biggest asset, the players.

2. He would pop in, if for no other reason than to show respect, as stated by Dangerfield, to player delegates who have flown in from all over Australia.

3. I don't know if he did make a call, but from what Dangerfield said, it appears he didn't.

4. Of course he is allowed to allocate some time to women's footy, but they weren't playing the last couple of days.

How hard would it be to pop down to Torquay and if nothing else, welcome the guys and have a drink or a meal with them and give them some encouragement on the issue.

When that is added to the comment of Dangerfield, that the AFL has refused to discuss the issue for the last month, it is not a great look.

5. He is very far from the sharpest tool in the shed, and seems to always want people to agree with him. Close to useless as a CEO IMHO.

[xarronn 384]

On 10/12/2016 at 11:05 PM, Redleg said:

1. He may not be one of the negotiators, but he is the CEO of the AFL and this is the single biggest issue ATM of the AFL, with its biggest asset, the players.

2. He would pop in, if for no other reason than to show respect, as stated by Dangerfield, to player delegates who have flown in from all over Australia.

3. I don't know if he did make a call, but from what Dangerfield said, it appears he didn't.

4. Of course he is allowed to allocate some time to women's footy, but they weren't playing the last couple of days.

How hard would it be to pop down to Torquay and if nothing else, welcome the guys and have a drink or a meal with them and give them some encouragement on the issue.

When that is added to the comment of Dangerfield, that the AFL has refused to discuss the issue for the last month, it is not a great look.

On 10/12/2016 at 11:05 PM, Redleg said:

"There were some disappointed players who flew across the country to be here yesterday and today, and we were perhaps looking for a little bit more respect than what we got.

My responses to the bolded segments in order. 

Point 3, I was replying to your criticism of his using time to call Mike Sheahan's daughter. ( Quote from Herald Sun article - “Gillon had seen me play when I was younger and I was his tennis coach, so he knew what I was like,” Sheahan said), so apart from anything else, he knew her personally.

How hard to pop in to Torquay: I'm not going to to argue that it's some impossible thing, but it is 3 hours to just travel there and back for some glad handing.

Last bolded segment, the quote from Dangerfield: Let's not forget that Dangerfield is also acting as the PR face of the AFLPA. This is part of the strategy to portray the players as wronged and downtrodden as they battle the AFL ogre.

I see it as an attempt to get public opinion more onside. 

[xarronn 384]

10 hours ago, Red and Bluebeard said:

5. He is very far from the sharpest tool in the shed, and seems to always want people to agree with him. Close to useless as a CEO IMHO.

It seems that people in positions of responsibility will invariably cop criticism and whilst I'm not in a position to say he is terrific, I'm really puzzled by this comment.

On the basis of the bolded segments we obviously have Bozo the Clown as the current AFL CEO, surely then the worst CEO in Australia!

R & B, can you illustrate his failings in respect to each of those criticisms with examples to enlighten me?  

[Redleg 41,642]

On 11/12/2016 at 10:42 AM, xarronn said:

My responses to the bolded segments in order. 

Point 3, I was replying to your criticism of his using time to call Mike Sheahan's daughter. ( Quote from Herald Sun article - “Gillon had seen me play when I was younger and I was his tennis coach, so he knew what I was like,” Sheahan said), so apart from anything else, he knew her personally.

How hard to pop in to Torquay: I'm not going to to argue that it's some impossible thing, but it is 3 hours to just travel there and back for some glad handing.

Last bolded segment, the quote from Dangerfield: Let's not forget that Dangerfield is also acting as the PR face of the AFLPA. This is part of the strategy to portray the players as wronged and downtrodden as they battle the AFL ogre.

I see it as an attempt to get public opinion more onside.

Happy for Gill to ring Katie to play Women's footy, I was more bemused that he was chasing a 34 year old, who had not played footy, other than one game 10 years ago, for 20 years.

She was his tennis coach,  but he has probably never seen her play footy, yet rings her to play in the women's league. 

As to the meeting with the players on the CBA, this is the most important item of the AFL for the year, as it will impact in the future on funds. Gill is a master of "glad handing", he does it all the time, yet could not bring himself to come down to Torquay, to see player delegates who had given up their free time to fly in for the meeting from all over Australia.

He is paid a bloody lot of money to do just that.

This is actually a strategy of the AFL, to delay talks until the pre season competition and back the players into a corner over striking, which the AFL knows will make the players unpopular with the public.

Gill is a dill for not going. How many crappy events does he attend during the year, but can't find a day to attend to one of the most important.

While I have no view on the percentage sought by the players, I believe Gill has acted very poorly and Dangerfield is correct in his disappointment.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,101]

1 hour ago, xarronn said:

It seems that people in positions of responsibility will invariably cop criticism and whilst I'm not in a position to say he is terrific, I'm really puzzled by this comment.

On the basis of the bolded segments we obviously have Bozo the Clown as the current AFL CEO, surely then the worst CEO in Australia!

R & B, can you illustrate his failings in respect to each of those criticisms with examples to enlighten me?  

Bozo the Clown may feel insulted by the comparison :-) One of the main things that sticks in my craw is the way he has handled the Essendon drug scandal. It shouldn't have been an issue whether or not Jobe Watson kept his Brownlow once the appeal failed. This should have been obvious to anyone with a clue, therefore ...

On the broader Essendon issue, Gill has never come out and said what I think an AFL CEO should, which is that performace-enhancing drugs are banned, and that anyone found to be using them is not welcome. He has encouraged an atmosphere in which there are ready arrangements for Essendon to top-up player lists in 2016, and that the players are victims of circumstance, rather than professional athletes who are accountable for their actions. As someone said early in the Essendon saga, in what other context woud a professional sporting organisation contact the parents of the players, rather than the players themselves? It seems that the "players as innocent victims" image is practically AFL-endorsed. Where does the buck stop for that?

As for the Players Association, I think he should have at least turned up for a little while. What is the AFL without the players? So at least doing something to contact them at the appropriate time seems a no-brainer to me. If nothing else, he seems to have made them feel he is the enemy, rather than someone with a similar broad interest but perhaps some differences of detail which can be discussed. To me, this is Management 101, let alone the top level of the organisation that is supposedly the leading sporting organisation in the country.

He seems far more intent on making so-called 'win-win' deals than following rules, such as the way that we were denied a priority pickin 2013, but Brisbane get one. Clearly there is no consistency here. A good CEO would have articulated a general strategy or policy, and made sure it was understood by all concerned. Demitriou may have had his detractors, but there wasn't much doubt what he stood for. Whether it was a good thing or not is another matter, but to me a key duty of an AFL CEO is to articulate and maintain a publically visible direction. Gill? Enough said!

[xarronn 384]

4 hours ago, Red and Bluebeard said:

Bozo the Clown may feel insulted by the comparison :-) One of the main things that sticks in my craw is the way he has handled the Essendon drug scandal. It shouldn't have been an issue whether or not Jobe Watson kept his Brownlow once the appeal failed. This should have been obvious to anyone with a clue, therefore ...

On the broader Essendon issue, Gill has never come out and said what I think an AFL CEO should, which is that performace-enhancing drugs are banned, and that anyone found to be using them is not welcome. He has encouraged an atmosphere in which there are ready arrangements for Essendon to top-up player lists in 2016, and that the players are victims of circumstance, rather than professional athletes who are accountable for their actions. As someone said early in the Essendon saga, in what other context woud a professional sporting organisation contact the parents of the players, rather than the players themselves? It seems that the "players as innocent victims" image is practically AFL-endorsed. Where does the buck stop for that?

As for the Players Association, I think he should have at least turned up for a little while. What is the AFL without the players? So at least doing something to contact them at the appropriate time seems a no-brainer to me. If nothing else, he seems to have made them feel he is the enemy, rather than someone with a similar broad interest but perhaps some differences of detail which can be discussed. To me, this is Management 101, let alone the top level of the organisation that is supposedly the leading sporting organisation in the country.

He seems far more intent on making so-called 'win-win' deals than following rules, such as the way that we were denied a priority pickin 2013, but Brisbane get one. Clearly there is no consistency here. A good CEO would have articulated a general strategy or policy, and made sure it was understood by all concerned. Demitriou may have had his detractors, but there wasn't much doubt what he stood for. Whether it was a good thing or not is another matter, but to me a key duty of an AFL CEO is to articulate and maintain a publically visible direction. Gill? Enough said!

The Jobe issue: If I'm not mistaken that fell into the Commission's scope. I don't think you can sheet that home to him. In any case, I believe it was obvious to both Gil and the Commission that he had to lose it, but they decided to do it their way. In the end the right outcome was achieved. I have no sympathy for Jobe and don't think he did anything heroic, courageous or noble by giving it back before he was told to. Don't forget he had a number of prominent supporters arguing he should keep it, (including the AFLPA, Robbo, and a former Brownlow medallist. I think the way it was done will allow Mitchell and Cotchin to receive their medals with far less controversy and I am really pleased about that, as they are fully deserving.

The broader Essendon issue: Again, I'm pretty sure the Commission had a big role in this.  I also happen to believe the players didn't set out to cheat, they were victims, - but that is just their bad luck. (Again no sympathy from me). Remember the Cronulla players and club got away with far less than what happened to Essendon. Of course the AFL was fought all the way by Hird, the club and the players. You can add to that list the AFLPA and the 'great Civil Rights lawyer Julian Burnside, (who also claimed Hird's human rights were being breached).

Turning up to Torquay: I've had my say about that in previous posts, its a matter of opinion, but I don't see it as a sign of incompetence, it was his considered decision.

Priority Pick: Was it after 2013 or 2014? Because he was appointed CEO at the end of April 2014. Either way, I recall that the grounds for a priority pick were deliberately kept secret, (and still are), so they couldn't be gamed by clubs. I think it would have been controversial to give us a priority pick then, but we got a pretty could result for the Frawley free agency move. I always felt there was some effort to compensate us there.

I'm not convinced that he is useless, nor that he is a Dill.

[Redleg 41,642]

40 minutes ago, xarronn said:

 

 but we got a pretty could result for the Frawley free agency move. I always felt there was some effort to compensate us there.

 

This is really a tiresome point.

We got exactly what the rules contemplated and provided for in the Frawley situation, nothing more,  nothing less.

His contract offer from the Hawks, coupled with his age and our ladder position, determined what we got.

We did not get special treatment from the league. We got what the rules said we would get.

The Lions with 3 flags in a row and  another GF in 2001-2014 with a better list than we had, did get special treatment from the league in getting a PP.

The media have acknowledged that.

No one has explained that.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,101]

On 11/12/2016 at 5:10 PM, xarronn said:

The Jobe issue: If I'm not mistaken that fell into the Commission's scope. I don't think you can sheet that home to him. In any case, I believe it was obvious to both Gil and the Commission that he had to lose it, but they decided to do it their way. In the end the right outcome was achieved. I have no sympathy for Jobe and don't think he did anything heroic, courageous or noble by giving it back before he was told to. Don't forget he had a number of prominent supporters arguing he should keep it, (including the AFLPA, Robbo, and a former Brownlow medallist. I think the way it was done will allow Mitchell and Cotchin to receive their medals with far less controversy and I am really pleased about that, as they are fully deserving.

The broader Essendon issue: Again, I'm pretty sure the Commission had a big role in this.  I also happen to believe the players didn't set out to cheat, they were victims, - but that is just their bad luck. (Again no sympathy from me). Remember the Cronulla players and club got away with far less than what happened to Essendon. Of course the AFL was fought all the way by Hird, the club and the players. You can add to that list the AFLPA and the 'great Civil Rights lawyer Julian Burnside, (who also claimed Hird's human rights were being breached).

Turning up to Torquay: I've had my say about that in previous posts, its a matter of opinion, but I don't see it as a sign of incompetence, it was his considered decision.

Priority Pick: Was it after 2013 or 2014? Because he was appointed CEO at the end of April 2014. Either way, I recall that the grounds for a priority pick were deliberately kept secret, (and still are), so they couldn't be gamed by clubs. I think it would have been controversial to give us a priority pick then, but we got a pretty could result for the Frawley free agency move. I always felt there was some effort to compensate us there.

I'm not convinced that he is useless, nor that he is a Dill.

It was 2013 that we were refused the priority pick as I recall.  Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree about the rest.  FWIW Jove is no hero, and the Essendon players got off lightly. But opinions differ on all topics and these are just mine.