It would be nice to see the same passion for the club shown on Demonland replicated on the footy field week in week out.

  On 31/05/2011 at 04:18, billy2803 said:

I'm sick of hearing about this "losing culture" crap.

Chip; you are sick of losing? Well, so are we. How about you do something about it. My suggestion would be to grab another 7 or 8 of your mates, I'm thinking Watts, Grimes, Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, Scully, Trengove and maybe Rivers, and make a stand. Spend the rest of the season living in each others pockets, reading the Demons Rules, so that it is in your head that there is no other way to play the game. That way, you can lead this young team to the next level, and all players on the list know what the expectation is.

Absolutely, my thoughts precisely, well said billy.

  Quote

This group can play ceratin roles, and if they are struggling, the others get in there and help him out to make sure they walk off having achieved. Realistic targets have to be set, chances are we wont win every game, but if this core group know each others individual targets (and know how their role impacts on that group achieving their targets), they will have no option but to ensure they reach it.

Having a couple of mates here and there and playing your little xbox or whatever you do in your spare time is fine, but all of you need to grow up, and understand that you have the ability to win premeierships, but it's going to take commitment and sacrifices. You need to live and breath the desire for improvement, and until such times, take away things that are distracting you. There will be plenty of time for fun along the way, but at the moment, your work/life balance seems all out of whack to me, and your priorities are in a similar state.

Before any of you whinge about the players needing time away from footy, this is bloody serious sh!t we're talking about. If these players that continue to Tweet to us about making a stand aren't willing to do it, then we're in a lot of trouble. I got shot down the other day suggesting a Twitter ban, well, it's not looking that drastic measure now is it?

Am I carrying on? Maybe. But before any of you get up me, I'm as bloody passionate as anyone at the Club, and I want things to change. I'm sick of my team being pathetic. Ok, Bailey might have to go, I'll leave that up to those that know best, but one thing is for sure, I want the players to take a heap of responsibility. You're the ones out there making these statements and not backing them up. It will take more than a change of coach to remove this "losing culture", so why not start it this weekend players?

No, you're not carrying on, just passionate about that we want our new leaders to recognise and make changes accordingly. I'm with you here^.

  On 31/05/2011 at 04:03, Rogue said:

The unstated premise seems to be that the players weren't trying to win.

If that's the case, I wholeheartedly reject this suggestion.

Then maybe you should read post #15 before you put words in my mouth.

With you all the way Billy.

  On 31/05/2011 at 04:18, billy2803 said:

Certainly sounds better than doing what we're doing at the moment. FFS we got called soft by Mitch Robinson who I watched king hit Rohan Bail in a VFL game at Princess Park. Personally I find that far softer than not putting your body on the line but that's me. He's not tough just way short of a 6 pack. He needs to get crunched repeatedly in Round 20 and when the sniper Judd steps in we need someone to miss the last couple of games buy putting him flat on the floor. Oh we also need to win that game more than any other this season. He needs to regret he ever mentioned the word soft about our club. If I was the coach I'd have it on the wall in the gym for the rest of the season. Make no mistake we can't keep being the whipping boys. The whole line is the sand shite is not my cup of tea but this Friday night is an incredibly important game for this group and this club. I don't want to hear some rubbish on twitter about making a stand I actually want them to play football like it was designed to be played, hard, tough, skilled and fair.

The media are creating an ugly image of this club, one that will stick in people's minds if we don't eradicate it. Injuries are a factor but surely we can just go back to man on man and tell each player to do whatever it takes to beat their direct opponent. Tackle, harrass, pester, get in their ear, niggle, step on their boots, dive harder at the ball and more often, generally play with some serious passion for the jumper and themselves. The bombers are well beatable. They've stolen our home game so lets send them packing with some serious bruises and let folks now we understand our first 10 rounds weren't good enough.

As for Frawley, stop your sooking and lead by example because personally I thought some of your efforts of friday were pathetic and you're better than that.(Twitter that brother!!)

  On 31/05/2011 at 05:10, Rojik of the Arctic said:

Then maybe you should read post #15 before you put words in my mouth.

I didn't put any words in any mouths. You may have missed words like 'seems' and 'if' - important qualifiers, don't you think?

You said that 'passion' can't be turned on and off like a switch. Who exactly are you asserting lacks passion for winning?

  On 31/05/2011 at 04:18, billy2803 said:

I'm sick of hearing about this "losing culture" crap.

Chip; you are sick of losing? Well, so are we. How about you do something about it. My suggestion would be to grab another 7 or 8 of your mates, I'm thinking Watts, Grimes, Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, Scully, Trengove and maybe Rivers, and make a stand. Spend the rest of the season living in each others pockets, reading the Demons Rules, so that it is in your head that there is no other way to play the game. That way, you can lead this young team to the next level, and all players on the list know what the expectation is. This group can play ceratin roles, and if they are struggling, the others get in there and help him out to make sure they walk off having achieved. Realistic targets have to be set, chances are we wont win every game, but if this core group know each others individual targets (and know how their role impacts on that group achieving their targets), they will have no option but to ensure they reach it

This paragraph sat very well with me, good post. Right list of players too for mine, and I would definitely include Rivers. Time for these boys to stand up and lead the way. Start with each other and the rest will follow.

  On 31/05/2011 at 04:18, billy2803 said:

I'm sick of hearing about this "losing culture" crap.

Chip; you are sick of losing? Well, so are we. How about you do something about it. My suggestion would be to grab another 7 or 8 of your mates, I'm thinking Watts, Grimes, Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, Scully, Trengove and maybe Rivers, and make a stand. Spend the rest of the season living in each others pockets, reading the Demons Rules, so that it is in your head that there is no other way to play the game. That way, you can lead this young team to the next level, and all players on the list know what the expectation is. This group can play ceratin roles, and if they are struggling, the others get in there and help him out to make sure they walk off having achieved. Realistic targets have to be set, chances are we wont win every game, but if this core group know each others individual targets (and know how their role impacts on that group achieving their targets), they will have no option but to ensure they reach it.

Ever thought about being a coach Billy....Nice words Bro.

You should send this directly to the club inner sanctum...i think it is how most of us feel.

Maybe now is the time to put Chip Frawley into the leadership group...."If you are sick of losing Chip...Demand more work from your team mates, regardless of who they are".

  On 31/05/2011 at 07:47, Rogue said:

I didn't put any words in any mouths. You may have missed words like 'seems' and 'if' - important qualifiers, don't you think?

You said that 'passion' can't be turned on and off like a switch. Who exactly are you asserting lacks passion for winning?

Winning? players? If? Seems?

How about I leave you a nice big gap.

And you can put in all the words you think you'd be happier seeing? Enjoy.

  On 31/05/2011 at 11:06, Rojik of the Arctic said:

Winning? players?

Yeah, that's what this thread is about.

  On 31/05/2011 at 11:06, Rojik of the Arctic said:

How about I leave you a nice big gap.

And you can put in all the words you think you'd be happier seeing? Enjoy.

My happiness isn't impacted by what I see in your posts. That said, I wouldn't mind you qualifying your statement so I can understand what point you were attempting to communicate, given it appears it has little relevance with the OP.

  On 30/05/2011 at 14:50, Rojik of the Arctic said:

While neglecting to say that the team has a recent history of losing games on purpose (the club - not the players) and doesn't have a culture of revelling in being a bunch of cheats like say a Carlton does.

I didn't like it then and I like it less now.

we tanked precisely one game for precisely one player - Jack Trengove. Solid decision then for a solid result now

  On 31/05/2011 at 13:27, Rogue said:

My happiness isn't impacted by what I see in your posts. That said, I wouldn't mind you qualifying your statement so I can understand what point you were attempting to communicate, given it appears it has little relevance with the OP.

Nahh, the club sponsored losses (or loss for the sake of argument) have nothing to do with this:

  On 30/05/2011 at 13:13, P_Man said:

Not surprisingly he seems really, really flat. What sticks out is the way he says "to be honest, I'm getting really tired of losing". Seemed quite poignant and demonstrates how much this culture of losing games, going back several years, is impacting the players.

Of course not. I'm sure the players just loved having the club undo their efforts on the field. I'm sure they all give 100% each week for Bails. I bet they just loved training their guts out in a losing team just so when it looked like they could taste victory their own club takes it from them.

  On 31/05/2011 at 13:49, Curry & Beer said:

we tanked precisely one game for precisely one player - Jack Trengove. Solid decision then for a solid result now

Great player and I love seeing him in the red and blue but I wonder if what we gained on the swings we more than lost on the roundabouts. I don't think one player is ever worth the fabric of the club and I really hope the damage done is repairable. Time will tell but I'm not one whit surprised that sometimes the group just won't dig deep when it is needed.

  On 31/05/2011 at 15:08, Rojik of the Arctic said:

Nahh, the club sponsored losses (or loss for the sake of argument) have nothing to do with this:

If we'd won our last three matches I'm pretty sure Frawley wouldn't be feeling flat about a game (or games, if you wish to argue that) years ago.

I think the idea that the players are not trying as hard as they can because of a game (or games, if you wish to argue that) years ago is an even longer bow.

  On 31/05/2011 at 09:48, why you little said:

Ever thought about being a coach Billy....Nice words Bro.

You should send this directly to the club inner sanctum...i think it is how most of us feel.

Maybe now is the time to put Chip Frawley into the leadership group...."If you are sick of losing Chip...Demand more work from your team mates, regardless of who they are".

I'm glad my post was seen as a positive!

The attitude I want to see changed WYL is this "leadership group" thing. Reality is, unless someone does something unacceptable (like Moloney), the leadership group will not change for an entire season. The Captain and Vice Cpatains will still be there at the end of the year. It's not until next year when these titles may change, but there is no guarantee that they will.

Sadly, 4 of the blokes I mentioned above are already in the leadership group. Of the other 4, Watts has ben trying (especially over the past month) to have an impact on the game, Scully hasn't played at all this season, Trengove has missed the last 3 weeks, and Frawley has had an up and down year. Those 4 blokes that aren't already in that leadership group need to take on leadership roles without the title - very similar to Moloney's attitude. It may require them to include Green and Davey in this entire process, which in turn may help to reignite their desire to succeed.

My ideal scenario would be for those players I mentioned (Frawley, Jones, Watts, Scully, Trengove, Moloney, Sylvia, Grimes and Rivers) to be proactive. I want them to organise a meeting with Bailey, Green and Davey, and propose to them how they are going to take this Club forward. Then, once the group is formed, every player in the group is always involved, especially on match day. If a player from the group is injured (ie Grimes at the moment), that doesn't mean he can't play his role. I would like to see that group of players get together at half time and go through their indivudual and group targets. Would only take a 2 minute discussion (ie. Beamer, you're down on your clearances, so we need to work as a unit to make sure they increase over the next half).

It is the perfect time for the likes of Watts, Frawley, Trengove and now Scully, to take responsibility and raise their voice. I want to see Watts show a controlled level of frustration if a teammate is letting the team down. This can only be done though, if that group know their roles, and are executing it consistently.

I'm not fussed that we don't have a press like the other 16 teams. This is the game plan that the players are instructed to play, and it's what Dean Bailey thinks can win a premiership. If players don't believe in it, and therefore, don't give it any respect, how do we know that it isn't a premiership winning plan? Everyone (players and supporters) needs to stop reading about how good a press is, and give this style a go. If they can walk off at the end of the season knowing they have executed it 100%, and we continually get flogged, well, then you can say that Bailey isn't the man.

This group needs to go to Bailey and give him 100% support for the remainder of the season. They then need to ensure that the rest of the playing group feel the same way. It's a lot of hard work, and it will take a fair chunk of time to get it to its most effective, but it will ensure we have a Geelong-like culture at the Club for decades to come.

  On 31/05/2011 at 15:46, Rogue said:

If we'd won our last three matches I'm pretty sure Frawley wouldn't be feeling flat about a game (or games, if you wish to argue that) years ago.

I think the idea that the players are not trying as hard as they can because of a game (or games, if you wish to argue that) years ago is an even longer bow.

So we have an impasse. You think it was just a matter of losing the game to grab the pick, and that was the end of it. I don't. I think what happened is repairable but not with the current coach sitting at the helm (for that and a variety of other reasons).

Who did we get beaten by on Friday night? How are they travelling this year? In 2007, didn't they do the same (or worse) thing as us? Don't they have the same Coach now as they did in 2007?

Each to their own.

  On 01/06/2011 at 03:38, Rogue said:

Who did we get beaten by on Friday night? In 2007, didn't they do the same (or worse) thing as us? Didn't they have the same Coach in 2007 as they do now?

Each to their own.

And if we promote a culture where cheating is considered the way to go we might not have this problem. I'm sure we could in time but they have a good one hundred year head start on us.

Each to their own, indeed.

  On 01/06/2011 at 03:42, Rojik of the Arctic said:

And if we promote a culture where cheating is considered the way to go

What are you trying to say?

You seem to have suggested previously that the Melbourne 'tanking' has somehow negatively impacted on the willingness of the players to dig deep in games years later.

However, you seem to be suggesting that Carlton's players haven't been negatively impacted because their Club has a 'culture of cheating'.

Is that right?

Btw, your post is pretty ironic, given the Maric 'goal'.

  On 01/06/2011 at 03:51, Rogue said:

What are you trying to say?

Just chop some more and ignore what doesn't suit you please. I get bored being quoted in context anyway.

Here -

Have another gap to fill in the bits you'd rather read.

  On 01/06/2011 at 04:03, Rojik of the Arctic said:

Just chop some more and ignore what doesn't suit you please. I get bored being quoted in context anyway.

Are you serious?

Here's what I said:

  On 01/06/2011 at 03:51, Rogue said:

You seem to have suggested previously that the Melbourne 'tanking' has somehow negatively impacted on the willingness of the players to dig deep in games years later.

That's based on this post:

  On 31/05/2011 at 15:08, Rojik of the Arctic said:

Of course not. I'm sure the players just loved having the club undo their efforts on the field. I'm sure they all give 100% each week for Bails. I bet they just loved training their guts out in a losing team just so when it looked like they could taste victory their own club takes it from them.

[...] Time will tell but I'm not one whit surprised that sometimes the group just won't dig deep when it is needed.

I also said this:

  On 01/06/2011 at 03:51, Rogue said:

However, you seem to be suggesting that Carlton's players haven't been negatively impacted because their Club has a 'culture of cheating'.

That's based on this:

  On 01/06/2011 at 03:42, Rojik of the Arctic said:

And if we promote a culture where cheating is considered the way to go we might not have this problem. I'm sure we could in time but they have a good one hundred year head start on us.

I can't see that I've portrayed your views unfairly.

I've been careful to qualify my comments about your posts with conditionals and, in case I am getting it wrong, have asked on multiple times for you to explain what it is you're actually trying to get across.

If I'm wrong, simply tell me how I'm getting it wrong.

At the end of the day we simply do not have the cattle.

Before the injuries started mounting it was obvious to me that we are not good enough.

And that is certainly the case with all the injuries.

Our best team has 7 - 8 players that are good enough to take us to the top four.

The rest are average players who are simply not good enough at AFL level.

They occasionly play good games but are mainly short of the require skill level.

AS MFC members we over rate a number of our players.

The results quite clearly show we are a bottom six side.

  On 01/06/2011 at 04:47, old dee said:

At the end of the day we simply do not have the cattle.

Before the injuries started mounting it was obvious to me that we are not good enough.

And that is certainly the case with all the injuries.

Our best team has 7 - 8 players that are good enough to take us to the top four.

The rest are average players who are simply not good enough at AFL level.

They occasionly play good games but are mainly short of the require skill level.

AS MFC members we over rate a number of our players.

The results quite clearly show we are a bottom six side.

While a lot of that is probably correct, there are things about it that I have issues with.

Yes, we have injuries, and with the personnel that it's hit, was always going to make it hard for us to overcome. But, just becuase these guys are injured, doesn't mean they are out of the game. I'd dearly love to see Grimes sitting in the Coaches box one week, I'd love to see Davey around the brothers in the rooms at half time. I want the players/leaders to take ownership of what is happening. The culture is obviosuly questionable, so I want that group of players that I listed earlier to roll their sleeves up and start building a better one. Scully is in a lot of ways a role model to the young players. While his training is not normal, he should also know where the line is in terms of what is acceptable and what isn't. While I'm not saying that all the young players have to train like he, they should know from day one that the is a difference between being an AFL player, and being a MFC player. If you don't want to put in hard, then you will find it tough. We draft blokes based on maturity and leadership qualities, they are not too young to give some form of responsibilites.

The point abouth the rest of our players being average is true, but again, this can be changed. If our core 8 can lift as a unit, and ensure each of those 8 players play a t a consistent level, it will also help these average players get involved in the game more. If the 8 can get the respect of their fellow teammates, these average players will grow with confidence, knowing they are going to be part of something.

I think our best 22 will, in maybe 18 months, have the ability to make top 4, and stay there for a number of years. Outside of my 8 "premiership leaders" are players such as Green, Davey, Jurrah, Jamar, Garland, Bartram, Tapscott and Gysberts. That's a total of 16 of 22 that are certain starters in our best 22. If we have 16 players playing top footy, the other 6 will naturally grow, especially if there is more competition for there spots. That's not saying that those 6 aren't average, it's saying that I'd expect an increase in performance levels.

I'd like to think I don't overate our players, to give you an idea, I'm still totally unsire about Gysberts! But you're right, a lot of supporters do.

  On 30/05/2011 at 13:37, Artie Bucco said:

That too (leadership), but in all seriousness, do any of you expect us to win any of the next 3 games considering our injuries?

It's all good and well to DEMAND THAT THIS MUST CHANGE, AND NOW!!!

But when everything else is working against you...

And yes P Man, we didn't have as many injuries when we played West Coast.

So? Are you saying we shouldn't have any losses?

Even though WC are clearly a better side at the moment?

I'm not sure what relevance the WC game has.

THIS IS Not about A Win... this Is About the Process,,,,, of leadership, & doing the winning THINGS,,,, that cause wins to Occur.... A Permanent Cultural and Attitudenal change of direction...this is what must change, and must start now.

I just watched the interview with frawls

He looks angry. It felt like he was burning inside. Iloved it.

When he dominates, he will be better than Jackovich.G.

Rivers is a serious campaigner.

J Mcdonald is 100% at-it

hbf

Strauss - new, deep kicker, active

Watts - lyon-like

Scully - Lightning!!!!!

Lets do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  On 31/05/2011 at 07:46, Roost It said:

Certainly sounds better than doing what we're doing at the moment. FFS we got called soft by Mitch Robinson who I watched king hit Rohan Bail in a VFL game at Princess Park. Personally I find that far softer than not putting your body on the line but that's me. He's not tough just way short of a 6 pack. He needs to get crunched repeatedly in Round 20 and when the sniper Judd steps in we need someone to miss the last couple of games buy putting him flat on the floor. Oh we also need to win that game more than any other this season. He needs to regret he ever mentioned the word soft about our club. If I was the coach I'd have it on the wall in the gym for the rest of the season. Make no mistake we can't keep being the whipping boys. The whole line is the sand shite is not my cup of tea but this Friday night is an incredibly important game for this group and this club. I don't want to hear some rubbish on twitter about making a stand I actually want them to play football like it was designed to be played, hard, tough, skilled and fair.

The media are creating an ugly image of this club, one that will stick in people's minds if we don't eradicate it. Injuries are a factor but surely we can just go back to man on man and tell each player to do whatever it takes to beat their direct opponent. Tackle, harrass, pester, get in their ear, niggle, step on their boots, dive harder at the ball and more often, generally play with some serious passion for the jumper and themselves. The bombers are well beatable. They've stolen our home game so lets send them packing with some serious bruises and let folks now we understand our first 10 rounds weren't good enough.

As for Frawley, stop your sooking and lead by example because personally I thought some of your efforts of friday were pathetic and you're better than that.(Twitter that brother!!)

This.