Some ratbag on 'ology (normally a damn fine site) started a thread with this title and included Aaron Davey in her list. I mean really, if we are going to do these exercises let's keep a sense of balance. And let's not go overboard and name names for the sake of it - 'ology also had Tom McD on the list and I reckon we should at least give the non-debutants a chance.

My confirmed list cloggers are, sadly,

Bate: had hopes for him but while he did a couple of good things Friday night - quick hands to Jurrah for a goal, strong contested mark on the wing - and is a penetrating kick, he just does not have the leg speed, agility or clean hands needed these days;

Maric: really when I first saw him I thought he was no good at all, and then this year he started to find a bit of it kicking a goal or two most weeks and I had to doubt first impressions, but it's clear now that his disposal and decision making are not up to it;

Newton: I am sorry, but anyone arguing this guy is learning is kidding themselves. Yes he has learned to tackle but he is not an instinctive attacker of the ball. So many times he showed us Friday night he cannot make a contest if caught even slightly out of position. He is not quick enough - in the mind I mean, he needs to know what he is going to do a few seconds before it happens otherwise he is a non-presence. And when he has kicked a small bag in the twos many of them have been rover's goals where he has been out of position and got lucky. I reckon he has worked hard and will be a good VFL player but we have to move on and give Howe a go asap

Strauss: just a bad pick really. Nicholson on Friday night did not do a lot but you know what? Nicho LOOKED LIKE he belonged. Strauss doesn't.

That's it. Only four definite cloggers for me.

Warnock is needed as a back up until someone younger and better is able to man up the monsters and I have fond memories of his better games although he does seem jumpy now (in a bad way).

Fitzpatrick might just be injury prone but he is looking marginal - I hope he can get a clear run and show us something although it seems his body may not be up to it.

I want to see if Morton can get back up to the pace of it although many have a question mark over him.

Wona too is marginal - really has to build up his endurance.

OK that's it. What do others think?

You're not much better when you include Maric and Strauss - and you're silly enough to criticise Maric's disposal!

List cloggers:

- Newton

- Bate

- Warnock

- Joel MacDonald

- Dunn

You're not much better when you include Maric and Strauss - and you're silly enough to criticise Maric's disposal!

List cloggers:

- Newton

- Bate

- Warnock

- Joel MacDonald

- Dunn

Agree except Joel Mac

Did OP really just label Fitzpatrick a possible list clogger? after 18 months on a senior list, recruited as a bean pole recovering from injury and illness, and as a long-term prospect at that?

Thread lost all credibility when you put Strauss in there and questioned Maric's disposal. but then you go and add that bit about Fitzpatrick...

Thank gawd you're not in charge of list management- frawley would've been delisted a long time ago, along with jamar.

are you prepared to make a call on lucas cook too? i mean, he's really shown very little B)

Agree except Joel Mac

this +1

Did OP really just label Fitzpatrick a possible list clogger? after 18 months on a senior list, recruited as a bean pole recovering from injury and illness, and as a long-term prospect at that?

Thread lost all credibility when you put Strauss in there and questioned Maric's disposal. but then you go and add that bit about Fitzpatrick...

Thank gawd you're not in charge of list management- frawley would've been delisted a long time ago, along with jamar.

are you prepared to make a call on lucas cook too? i mean, he's really shown very little B)

You have a problem with English Comprehension?

Re Fitzpatrick - said his body may not be up to it - he appears injury prone but I hoped he made it.

Re Lucas Cook - I explicitly said we should not be judging those who have not debuted - OK this was said in reference to Tom McDonald but I figured any native English speaker could extrapolate that to all those who have not debuted.

As to credibility and Maric's disposal, take a look at Friday night's tape.

And try not to be so mouthy in future. Mine was a serious attempt to start a discussion, not a slanging match. Why is it that so many can't exchange opinions without working up some 'tude?

Difference of opinion is "working up some 'tude"..?

Maric is an elite kick.

A few mistakes in one game does not immediately make him a list clogger.

Even suggesting Fitzpatrick's name with a caveat leaves you open to criticism.

Criticism of Strauss and Maric leads me to believe that your definition of a "list clogger" is very different to that of many other people.

Generally it doesn't include kids that are still developing.

Moreso it is usually aimed towards players like Juice Newton who have had 5+ years to fully mature physically and figure the game out.

Essentially, players that have plateaud or come very close to doing so.

You have a problem with English Comprehension?

Re Fitzpatrick - said his body may not be up to it - he appears injury prone but I hoped he made it.

Re Lucas Cook - I explicitly said we should not be judging those who have not debuted - OK this was said in reference to Tom McDonald but I figured any native English speaker could extrapolate that to all those who have not debuted.

As to credibility and Maric's disposal, take a look at Friday night's tape.

And try not to be so mouthy in future. Mine was a serious attempt to start a discussion, not a slanging match. Why is it that so many can't exchange opinions without working up some 'tude?

Would 'those who have not debuted' actually equate to 'those who have not debuted'? because in that case, I must have missed Fitzpatrick's debut... you contravene yourself. it appears i'm not the one with an english comprehension problem...

As to Maric's disposal, unless it has fallen off the face off a cliff since we played North (previous round) and he kicked a goal from outside 50, he is clearly sufficient (at the very least) in this area. perhaps the fact that it was teeming with rain prior to friday night's match had something to do with it? on that note, Watts' efficiency was 50% on friday night- going on that performance the kid is simply not up to it.It's official, Watts is now a list clogger.

the reason I (and i presume many Demonland followers) take umbrage to posts such as your good self's, is that you seem to be making extraordinarily premature, and manifestly wrong, calls on young kids who simply need an opportunity before anybody can make a proper judgment.

And btw- simply stating that a post has no credibility is perhaps a little different to starting a 'slanging match'. perhaps questioning somebody's ability to comprehend English would be more aptly described as starting a slanging match...

You're not much better when you include Maric and Strauss - and you're silly enough to criticise Maric's disposal!

List cloggers:

- Newton

- Bate

- Warnock

- Joel MacDonald

- Dunn

When we were tanking (late in 2009), we played Bate in midfield for a few games, and he did surprisingly well. His strength in close was very useful sometimes.

This is the sort of move, especially when we're getting smashed in the midfield, that I'd like to see made at some stage, before I pass judgment on Bate.

Agree with the others.

Would 'those who have not debuted' actually equate to 'those who have not debuted'? because in that case, I must have missed Fitzpatrick's debut... you contravene yourself. it appears i'm not the one with an english comprehension problem...

.

I understand your point but maybe it's just a bit subtle for you - I am saying Fitzpatrick looks like a bloke whose body may not let him get there - but I am not suggesting he is a clogger. I fear his body makes him marginal but time will tell.

And that would be 'contradict' BTW, not contravene.

As to Maric's some time good disposals - I acknowledged that earlier this year he had me rethinking my view of him. But his misses far outweigh his hits. He was a repeat offender Friday with and without pressure. I am sure we will see more of him but for me he is going to be one of those litmus players - if he is in the side we will still have a fair way to go.

Difference of opinion is "working up some 'tude"..?

Maric is an elite kick.

Yeah, he's as damaging as Matt Suckling or Shannon Hurn. Not.

Maric may have an elite kick on the track, or in his past. But I'm yet to see it as an elite kick a AFL level.

Yeah, he's as damaging as Matt Suckling or Shannon Hurn.

But he's "elite" FCS I am really sick and tired of this bleeding word. Elite does not apply to C grade players. It applies to the players who have shown themselves to be so. Ablett is an elite kick. Chapman is an elite kick. Rioli is an elite kick. Franklin is an elite kick. Lake, LeCras, Pendlebury, Swan etc. Maric is so far off it's not funny. Long way to go before anyone with any sense will consider him "elite".

But he's "elite" FCS I am really sick and tired of this bleeding word. Elite does not apply to C grade players. It applies to the players who have shown themselves to be so. Ablett is an elite kick. Chapman is an elite kick. Rioli is an elite kick. Franklin is an elite kick. Lake, LeCras, Pendlebury, Swan etc. Maric is so far off it's not funny. Long way to go before anyone with any sense will consider him "elite".

Why are you quoting me?

I just gave examples of elite kicks that weren't as obvious and then you just posted obvious one's.....Woop!!

Maric may have an elite kick on the track, or in his past. But I'm yet to see it as an elite kick a AFL level.

Agree.

Elite does not apply to C grade players. It applies to the players who have shown themselves to be so. Ablett is an elite kick. Chapman is an elite kick. Rioli is an elite kick. Franklin is an elite kick. Lake, LeCras, Pendlebury, Swan etc. Maric is so far off it's not funny. Long way to go before anyone with any sense will consider him "elite".

Most over used term in respect of MFC players of recent vintage. We have some players with potential but lets see them gets some runs and credibility on the board. I cant see Maric achieving that status at this stage of his career. Could well be useful but elite.. I think not.

Maric may have an elite kick on the track, or in his past. But I'm yet to see it as an elite kick a AFL level.

I think people get caught up with his u18 record.

I remember he was recorded at 85% accuracy for goal accuracy. That doesn't take into account out of bounds or field kicking at all.

Maric's field kicking is vanilla. Not awful but not great. His set shots and snaps in the AFL have shown to be not elite.

Didn't say Maric is an elite player - merely his kicking skills.

Ever seen him deliver it into the forward line or kick a goal under no pressure?

He is sublime.

At TAC cup level he holds the record for goal kicking percentage - ~85%.

That is elite.

There's plenty of other areas where you could criticise Maric, but kicking is a poor choice.

Re: Bate, it's a bit like PJ thought he was and played like a big wingman.

Doesnt mean we should have played him there.

We have much better options in the midfield than Bate.

Ok, say I'm overstating it by calling his kicking elite.

It is STILL the last thing you should be criticising him on.

Have you guys not watched Maric this year!? His kicking has been great most of the time, better than most of the players on our list. Completely agree with Artie.

Kicking a goal under no pressure illustrates elite kicking? I think not.

Maric is an elite kick.

A few mistakes in one game does not immediately make him a list clogger.

Get off the grass, Maric is not even close to being an elite kick!

His kicking at Casey and at MFC has been very average

He was "reputed" to be an elite kick in his TAC days but it hasn't translated to senior football (Dean must've coached it out of him, lol)

Yeah yeah, ok, he was drafted an elite kick.

He is short of elite, but he is not terrible.

Anyway, a lot of people splitting hairs here.

The issue is, if you're going to nominate him as a list clogger, it is not because of his kicking.

It's his strongest asset.

Newton

Maric's problem is not his kicking, its his ability to act quickly when he's got the ball. So often he keeps his head down, doesn't look broadly for options, tries to run around the opposition and then runs backwards eventually having to dispose under pressure. He looks like a rabbit in the headlights. He is also pretty useless overhead. I don't know if he can learn to rectify these things but I hope so.

He does look good when there is nobody between him and the goals. Then he looks like he knows what to do.

Newton, Dunn, Newton, Warnock and Newton

Getting close: Bate, Petterd, Morton (but I'd give those last two some slack. Hopefully they can turn it around)

And I thought he looked OK when he played, but if you count rookies (and we appear to be including Newton): McNamara