Nathan Jones

[H_T 3,043]

They are not all going to make it either no matter we think of their 'potential'. Because it will depend on how hard they want to work and drive themselves to improve. The rates of failure among AFL players are legendary. Our capability of turning good players into elite players isn't flash altho I think we have a very good chance of getting a couple of marquee players out of this bunch.

You're right they will have to earn it. And if they work hard enough and follow their peers there is every chance the midfield set up will change along with the rotational set-up.

[Dr. Mubutu 831]

I have different classifications for midfelders. I look at the very best teams, premiership teams, as having 5 premium midfielders and up to a dozen that rotate through the midfield at some stage. Geelong have had Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Corey and Chapman. I see Bail as a rotating mid not unlike Wojinski at Geelong, who plays off half back, but regularly pushes through the middle. Jones isn't good enough to be an engine room mid, i.e. he won't be a top 5 premiership premium mid. Unlike you and some others, I don't think that he has the versatility, or tricks to play in other positions terribly well. Someone like Bail can have a stint in the middle due to his great pace, hardness and penetrating kicking, yet he can also play half forward or half back. He's also a really good mark for his size. He has variety that Jones doesn't. Morton, Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease have variety that Jones doesn't.

The key ingredient is getting 5 premium mids, a sound support group that has versatility, a great defence and an array of quality goal kickers. I believe that the talent is predominantly already on the list, just not yet in the mode of development that it needs to be. I don't see Jones as an integral part of that mixture down the track, more as depth.

Jones is a boom or bust mid in that if he's not one of your starting on-ballers he's half way out the door. For me, he's really no good anywhere else. You start trying to create a position for him such as a tagger. It doesn't work for me.

I hope this better clarifies my views. It's not as simple as "would he get a game with Geelong ?". It's as much to do with structure.

I would imagine that this is why he's getting a run in the forwards lately. In the last few games Jones has played primarily as an on-baller, but has pent more time than in the past in the forward line (especially, for my memory anyway, in the Brisbane game). He also took part in the 'goal-kicking contest' at the club during the preseason (and, IIRC, did quite well). That screams to me that the club are showing him that he needs to add some flexibility to his game. Whether he has it yet or not is different matter. But IMO, he's definitely working hard on it.

[agent_orange 0]

I would imagine that this is why he's getting a run in the forwards lately. In the last few games Jones has played primarily as an on-baller, but has pent more time than in the past in the forward line (especially, for my memory anyway, in the Brisbane game). He also took part in the 'goal-kicking contest' at the club during the preseason (and, IIRC, did quite well). That screams to me that the club are showing him that he needs to add some flexibility to his game. Whether he has it yet or not is different matter. But IMO, he's definitely working hard on it.

McDonald and Bruce will move on shortly. Bartram is going to have to improve his kicking otherwise others will pass him.

[DemonDan... 77]

It's not as simple as "would he get a game with Geelong ?".

I look at the very best teams, premiership teams, as having 5 premium midfielders and up to a dozen that rotate through the midfield at some stage. Geelong have had Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Corey and Chapman.

The key ingredient is getting 5 premium mids

I see Bail as a rotating mid not unlike Wojinski at Geelong

-the 1st comment, up there in bold.. you are having me on arent you??

That was THE WHOLE basis of your arguement to begin with! Just 2 pages ago! Mate, youre having a shocker.. but glad to see youve 'relaxed' a bit. Wanting 12-13 'geelong worthy' mids, (that even geelong dont have) is crazy.

Even 5 Elite/premium mids? This is part of the point im trying to make..

Give me one other team in the last 8-10 years since Brissy 'fab four' that has had 5 elite mids? Its not the be-all to end-all and extremely rare.

Again, even the filth that rolled them last round only had 2. (..and sticking joel corey in there amongst all the other big names..nice try, but it didnt get past me. Corey does in no way, shape or form deserve to be mentioned in there with the other 4 stars.. the cats have 4 elite mids atm.)

Wojinski? Dogdy Wodgy is C-grade at best. Jones would get a spot ahead of him at geelong every day of the week. Really, really bad example..

and AGAIN youve broken youre own rule with Bail. He wouldnt get into the cats top 25 players, let alone as a mid.. yet.

Youre making A LOT of very aspirational assumptions for players and the future, when Jones is actually out there doing it at the minute.

..and basing your arguement on kids that havent even played a senior game yet!

Gys may grow another few centimetres and end up being a KPP, Tappy may put on too much weight and end up being slow as a wet week, Bleasme may get a hot spot a miss another year of footy..

I said that -Gysberts, Tapscott and Blease- have more variety than Jones as footballers.

You don't need to see a player run out in 50 league games to know the type of player they'll be.

If the stars and moon align Jones may well play in a premiership side

Again, how do you know Gys, Tap and Bleases 'variety' is any good?? They may all be sh!tful off the flanks and one-dimensional one position players.

Jones IS actually kicking goals off a H-f-flank in games atm, but you dont seem to want to recognise the fact.

Yeah, a lot of the time you DO need to see a player reach 50 games to know what type of player theyll be. Just look at our own Cale Morton, where is he at, at the minute?

..and that last comment H, thats a bit low. "If the stars and moon align?" That the sort of vomment (ha! i actually meant to put 'comment' but i hit V instead - which sums it up even better )

Thats the sort of comment to make when discussing if our mums might ever play in a premiership team.

Every year there is a draft and every year players are delisted. There needs to be turnover.

How do you know there will be no significant changes to our midfield (stocks) ? Our midfield is not yet complete..

What about Jack Viney ?

Of course there will be changes, obviously there is every year - but not significant ones. Ie: Miller, Newts, Meese, belly may go, not significant imo, which was my original point.

And how do i know there will be no major changes to the midfield? Well, one could rationally surmise that the above 4 players wont get us decent trades or decent draft picks and the Judds, Balls, Burgoynes

they arent coming on board at the best of times.

I'll ask you the same thing i asked H. We have 17 'round 1 & 2' draft picks ALREADY in the team, add another one (probably a Key forward) to that list, at years end.

A Possible Starting 18 of Rd 1 & 2 draft picks. (Could add Jurrah, macdonald and martin, 1st round pre-season draft picks to the list too.)

Isnt that enough? What more do you want?

Do you think the dees recruitment is so bad we cant get a few elite players and an all over A-grade team out of what we have now?

I have no doubt we have a premiership team there, right now and all it has to do is grow into one. Its ours to stuff up.

Have a little faith man.

-Oh, and Jack Viney.. geez.

A 16 y.o kid thats 2 drafts away, might not even decide to play for us and maybe still 3 years or more away from afl senior footy.. didnt you wonder why neither H or myself mentioned him?

Welcome to the darks side. :D

I would put my house (if I had one) on the fact he'll play 200+ (jones). I reckon he'll play 250.

The dark side. Otherwise known as 'the off-season'. Just getting warmed up..

Jones strikes me as a long term player as well. A 250 gamer. Tough, injury-free for a while now and consistantly getting better. We forget he's had to learn and develop under the worst circumstances possible. (Team and Facilities-wise)

Edited August 11, 2010 by DemonDan...

[Hannabal 4]

-the 1st comment, up there in bold.. you are having me on arent you??

That was THE WHOLE basis of your arguement to begin with! Just 2 pages ago! Mate, youre having a shocker.. but glad to see youve 'relaxed' a bit. Wanting 12-13 'geelong worthy' mids, (that even geelong dont have) is crazy.

Even 5 Elite/premium mids? This is part of the point im trying to make..

Give me one other team in the last 8-10 years since Brissy 'fab four' that has had 5 elite mids? Its not the be-all to end-all and extremely rare.

Again, even the filth that rolled them last round only had 2. (..and sticking joel corey in there amongst all the other big names..nice try, but it didnt get past me. Corey does in no way, shape or form deserve to be mentioned in there with the other 4 stars.. the cats have 4 elite mids atm.)

I tried to break it down for you so that it may have been easier to understand. I realised that my statement could be construed as too broad, hence the clarification. Clearly, I either over-estimated my capabilities to communicate, or yours to understand.

Premium mids = A graders * - not necessarily "elite" midfielders. A player may have an A grade year, but it doesn't mean that they play at A grade level year in, year out. As an example, Medhurst had an A grade year for Collingwood when he made AA as a forward, but now he can't even make the team. Elite players are elite for the majority of their career. By nature, they're the best of the best. Virtually no club has ever had 5 elite mids at any one time, but 4-5 premium mids is achievable and desirable to win a flag.

The game has changed so much in the last 8-10 years it's extraordinary. It's changed so much since 2007 that it's hardly worthwhile mentioning the last 8-10 years. Brisbane and Geelong have won 6 of the last 9 flags, so two thirds of those flags had 5 premiums. Corey was indeed an A grade mid in their flag years. It's laughable for you to suggest he wasn't. He's won 2 Best & Fairests and twice been AA.

Obviously there's no hard and fast rule when it comes to winning a flag. The formula won't be the same for every club every year. Hawthorn had a number of A grade mids (Mitchell, Crawford, Sewell), but they also had Franklin with a freak year and a star in Hodge. Considering that most games are won in the middle and considering that I want us to win not just one flag, but have a period of domination, it's reasonable to suggest that we need to assemble 5 premium (A grade) mids, including stars, to orchestrate what most crave.

Jones isn't an A grader, i.e. "premium", and never will be. He does nothing exceptionally well. He's no half forward and others are well ahead for that position. He's not creative by hand, or foot. Marking isn't a strength, although he's fine for his height. His pace is ok, but not elite. He tries his guts out and does most things adequately. This is just a realistic assessment of him as a footballer.

Morton will become an A grader once he improves the defensive side of his game. I'll back my judgment on Blease and Gysberts. I don't consider it guesswork. They don't have exposed form, so it's an easy argument to dismiss them, but I've seen enough to be comfortable with my assessment. Clearly it's the club's too. I need to see more of Tapscott. I didn't mention Strauss, because while the talent is evident the intensity is woeful. I've put a line through him and I suggest he was a poor pick. If I'm wrong, fantastic.

Each year 30-35 very good players leave the game. It happened last year, the year before and it will happen this year. Watch the GF parade every year. Very good players get replaced through the draft each year. We've had excellent draft picks the last few years and having seen most of them play at junior level and subsequently Casey, I see no reason why the players I've mentioned won't become very good AFL players with the right development. In fact, we're the envy of the competition with the list we're building.

Naturally, I realise that there are no guarantees, which is why I used to lambast Daniher for not turning the list over nearly enough. He let the ordinary hang around. Btw, I don't get enthused for every young Melb footballer I see. Far from it. I wanted us to use pick 12 on Jones prior to drafting him. Many here will remember that I was very pro Nathan Jones. I had private corrsepondence from CAC at the time saying that he really liked him too and that he was in the mix. I was rapt when I heard his name called out on draft day. He's ultimately become a good player, but down the track I recognise that at best he'll be a fringe player if we're to become a premiership quality side.

Finally, there's nothing "low" by what I said about Jones. It's called an opinion.

#It's all about winning flags, Turbo#

* I agree that there's obviously subjectivity when it comes to classifying A graders.

[Disco Demons 92]

[quote name='Hannabal' date='12 August 2010 - 01:19 PM'

[old55 23,396]

IMO Jones is in a group behind Trengove, Morton, Sylvia, Grimes, Scully and Davey in a future MFC premiership side. He's going to be competing for a position along with Gysberts, McKenzie, Moloney, Jetta, Bennell, Bail and Blease in the midfield rotation. He's a very likely candidate but he's no certainty - there's a balance of types required and Bennell, Bail and Blease offer different qualities. He's really in a sub-group with Gysberts, McKenzie and Moloney and it's quite possible they wont all fit.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

IMO Jones is in a group behind Trengove, Morton, Sylvia, Grimes, Scully and Davey in a future MFC premiership side. He's going to be competing for a position along with Gysberts, McKenzie, Moloney, Jetta, Bennell, Bail and Blease in the midfield rotation. He's a very likely candidate but he's no certainty - there's a balance of types required and Bennell, Bail and Blease offer different qualities. He's really in a sub-group with Gysberts, McKenzie and Moloney and it's quite possible they wont all fit.

Good post.

It's not POSSIBLE they won't fit. It's a certainty they won't.

What I like to consider is that no team is made up solely of these 5 A-grade players. A bunch of B-graders will achieve nothing of note without their 5 big names (Daniher era). Likewise a bunch of highly paid superstars need a team around them or they will be the bridesmaids every year (Saints under Thomas).

I reckon if we say we need 8 names for a starting midfield with rotations, then we're kidding ourselves. I reckon we need to recruit 16 serious names... of Jones' quality and up. Some will start promisingly, and drift away to mediocrity. Some will start with no hope, then surprise everyone and show a lot, like Bail.

You gave 14 names above, all who have shown plenty, or have plenty of promise. I would add Maric (up until recently) as another long shot. Tapscott might possibly play a forward/midfield role. And I remember Bartram played some ok footy out of the guts, though a return there seems unlikely (hard tag maybe?).

Let's not forget we will likely land a few more midfield names next season. I hear me might be turning over our rookies completely too.

But I digress...

Personally, I'm pleased with where our midfield is headed, and how we've recruited as a whole. I think we have just the right blend of hard working inside mids like Jones... and the class outside players. I can't help but feel we need one more Scully/Trengove quality youngster... but for all we know Blease and Tapscott could be that.

I don't reckon there's any need for concern to be honest. Jones more than has a place in the squad. And at this stage of development, we're not asking him to show he's a Brownlow winner. Just that he can play his role week-in-week-out. Which he does.

[Hannabal 4]

well said...

i think jones will be one of the last players to be shown the door. he does give the red and blue a great level of effort when he plays.

[censored], if you're going to edit my posts at least make them sound believable.

[Demon16 69]

Jones isn't an A grader, i.e. "premium", and never will be. He does nothing exceptionally well. He's no half forward and others are well ahead for that position. He's not creative by hand, or foot. Marking isn't a strength, although he's fine for his height. His pace is ok, but not elite. He tries his guts out and does most things adequately. This is just a realistic assessment of him as a footballer.

* I agree that there's obviously subjectivity when it comes to classifying A graders.

Agree about the subjectivity. you could replace "Jones" with "Sewell" yet Sewell is an A-grader?

FWIW neither are A's IMO

Edited August 12, 2010 by Demon16

[Red Sox 2]

IMO Jones is in a group behind Trengove, Morton, Sylvia, Grimes, Scully and Davey in a future MFC premiership side. He's going to be competing for a position along with Gysberts, McKenzie, Moloney, Jetta, Bennell, Bail and Blease in the midfield rotation. He's a very likely candidate but he's no certainty - there's a balance of types required and Bennell, Bail and Blease offer different qualities. He's really in a sub-group with Gysberts, McKenzie and Moloney and it's quite possible they wont all fit.

Blease will not be competing with anyone if fit. This kid is a jet and if fitness follows look out for him in 2011.

[Hannabal 4]

Agree about the subjectivity. you could replace "Jones" with "Sewell" yet Sewell is an A-grader?

FWIW neither are A's IMO

Sewell isn't an A grader this year, but he has had A grade years. Sewell's best years are a mile ahead of Jones.

[jayceebee31 759]

All I can add to this post is --we are developing a very handy list especially with our midfield. Jones has shown versatility this year and may run with Hodge this week.Could become a handy stopper in time to come.

[Demon16 69]

Sewell isn't an A grader this year, but he has had A grade years. Sewell's best years are a mile ahead of Jones.

In fairness to Jones though he's been playing in the midfield from hell (pardon the pun), Sewell has been in a quality midfield group. It will be interesting to see if Jones' performances reflect the direction of the team in coming years.

[DemonDan... 77]

I tried to break it down for you so that it may have been easier to understand. Clearly, I either over-estimated my capabilities to communicate, or yours to understand.

Corey was indeed an A grade mid in their flag years. It's laughable for you to suggest he wasn't.

Jones isn't an A grader, i.e. "premium", and never will be.

Morton will become an A grader once he improves the defensive side of his game.

I get your opinion and enjoy the debate, but youve contradicted yourself or changed your tune a number of times , which is the frustrating part.

"Clearly, I either over-estimated my capabilities to communicate, or yours to understand"

Clearly, you over-estimated your capabilities to communicate, which makes you hard to understand.

I said Corey wasnt apart of the elite NOW.. you bring up his past, but i never did.. and theres been talk wondering why his game has been waning recently, which supports my opinion.

Please quote my posts correctly.

How do you know Jones WONT be an A-grader and Morton WILL??

Seriously, Morton is not even in the team atm! Why would you write off an improving consistant 22 y.o then back a struggling kid?

They both have a chance of becoming A-grade players if they get the best out of themselves..

Sewell's best years are a mile ahead of Jones.

Sewell is 26 and peaking. He has 3 - 4 years on Jones who is 22. So bad example..

BUT even so - heres something to look at..

2007 Sewell averaged 21.3 and Jones 17.4

2008 Sewell 23.5 and Jones 20.6.

2009 Sewell 25.8 and Jones 22.2

2010 Sewell has 20.4 and jones 19.7,

So he's down a couple of possies a match (so is Sewell as you pointed out), but Jones has offset that by kicking goals and being the real hard man - esp in the absence of molly and CaptMac.. and improved this season again.

Jones is a better kick too, easily. He's one of the dees best kicks. (Sewell has had plenty of trouble with his kicking in the past from memory)

Pretty good for being 3-4 years behind in age/games/experience..

Its a shame youve written him off. He really can become an A-grade player if he keeps improving next year and beyond.. and a great replacement for CaptMac when his poor 'ol body sh!ts itself.

Edited August 12, 2010 by DemonDan...

[old55 23,396]

[i said Corey wasnt apart of the elite NOW.. you bring up his past, but i never did.. and theres been talk wondering why his game has been waning recently, which supports my opinion.

Please quote my posts correctly.

Corey's elite status in the premiership years is surely the relevant point. He's talking about the number of elites in flag winning teams. Michael Voss is not elite now either.

[Red Sox 2]

Sewell isn't an A grader this year, but he has had A grade years. Sewell's best years are a mile ahead of Jones.

Jones has as many attributes as Sewell IMO who has maybe had one A grade year at best, maybe. He is no A grader.

Wasn't he almost a Demon, I am pretty certain the Hawks were chasing Ryan Ferguson and were offering Sewell as the trade?

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

....................... Wasn't he almost a Demon, I am pretty certain the Hawks were chasing Ryan Ferguson and were offering Sewell as the trade?

yep. If I recall correctly, Ferg. was still under contract at the time so we needed his agreement for the trade to go ahead. He declined, and that was the end of it.

[Hannabal 4]

Its a shame youve written him off. He really can become an A-grade player if he keeps improving next year and beyond.. and a great replacement for CaptMac when his poor 'ol body sh!ts itself.

Where have I written Jones off ? I said that I'd keep him, but I see him being a fringe player when we're challenging.

Jones will never be an A grader. He doesn't have the skill, reflexes, or decision making. There's not one aspect of the game where he's elite.

The beauty about posting our views on a public forum is that we'll be able to revisit a thread like this - even if we are somewhat anonymous . If I'm proven to be wrong I'll put my hand up.

Time will tell.

Others are forgetting how good Sewell was 2-3 years ago. The stats are no reflection of his importance. Though I note that the rating points for both weren't included in the stats provided. It gives a better feeling for the overall difference. I didn't include this year because Sewell has been way off and like Jones was dropped before a late change gave him a reprieve.

http://www.finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare.asp?SeasonID=2009&PlayerName1=&PlayerName2=&PlayerName3=&PlayerName4=&Compare=Add+to+Comparison&SelectedPlayers=1363%2C1676%2C

I agree that Sewell isn't an A grader. But he most definately had a couple of A grade years when it counted. Just like Pendlebury, Swan, Dale Thomas, Didak and arguably Wellingham are having A grade years rotating through the midfield for Collingwood.

If Jones has been so good this year, why do you think he was dropped ? Surely even for you the alarm bells must be ringing.

Btw, I haven't changed my tune on anything.

[H_T 3,043]

Oh, and Jack Viney.. geez.

A 16 y.o kid thats 2 drafts away, might not even decide to play for us and maybe still 3 years or more away from afl senior footy.. didnt you wonder why neither H or myself mentioned him?

I did wonder. And I'm not surprised. It was one of a few examples I gave that could well have an impact on the dynamics of the midfield (ie. significant change)...even if it is in 2 years time.

[Disco Demons 92]

[censored], if you're going to edit my posts at least make them sound believable.

haha....fat finger keyboard error...they where my comments...i agreed to your post...

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Jones is under-rated by a few of the more learned members of Demonland.

Those who say Jones does nothing exceptionally well need to have a re-think. He is one of only a few playing league footy at the moment who can consistently treat thier body as a battering ram and still make it up for the next contest. He does this contest after contest and week after week. This is often not truly reflected in any stat.

Jones needs to find a level where he marries his urge to attack and create with his skill level. There are times when some of his attacking plays are team lifting.

He is a lot closer to being an A grader than a lot of people here think IMO.

Edited August 13, 2010 by dandeeman

[Disco Demons 92]

Jones is under-rated by a few of the more learned members of Demonland.

Those who say Jones does nothing exceptionally well need to have a re-think. He is one of only a few playing league footy at the moment who can consistently treat thier body as a battering ram and still make it up for the next contest. He does this contest after contest and week after week. This is often not truly reflected in any stat.

Jones needs to find a level where he marries his urge to attack and create with his skill level. There are times when some of his attacking plays are team lifting.

He is a lot closer to being an A grader than a lot of people here think IMO.

jones does treat his body like a battering ram...he also plays the role of tagger well.

i think the reason why he gets dropped is when the other players around him start going in harder and beating there opponenet he gets a bit exposed.

[jnrmac 20,055]

Jones has still got a lot to learn. Particularly his defensive side which is why he has been tagging a fair bit over the past month.

Has a great work rate and is hell bent on improvement so my guess is he'll make it. He's only 22yo and has played 89 games!!

Will be part of a great engine room for years to come.....

[DemonDan... 77]

Where have I written Jones off ?

If Jones has been so good this year, why do you think he was dropped ?

Where HAVENT you written him off?

He wont be in our prem team.. he's borderline at best.. he hasnt got the skill.. never be 'premium'.. Im sure theres a dozen more..

Do you post in your sleep?

He could have just been dropped for a rest. He's played EVERY GAME this year! No mention from anyone at the club in any of the press interviews, that he was dropped on form.

Didnt he allude to something 'personal' going on, on his twitter at the time as well? He definately wasnt himself at the time.

Maybe a combination of things meant it was time just for a rest.

You cant seriously say Jones is our 23rd best player atm.

We need our best 22 out there and he's well inside that.

I did wonder. And I'm not surprised.

Youre still talking like he's already on the list..

and yes, i did think of his name along the way, but was smart enough to know not to bring him up yet.