Except Hawkins has real talent.

There's not that much between them actually. The big difference clearly has been opportunity. Hawkins early poor contributions were carried and it has really only been in his last 20 or so games that he has shown anything consistently.

Newton-v-Hawkins

Newton has always had talent - that's not his problem.

Nothing like that. Hawkins is still a kid, is a premiership player, and was already in the side as a forward.

Finding a second string to Newton's bow is only a means by which he can find a useful role in the 44, maybe only for the last 8 rounds. Hawkins is nowhere near delist material. If anything, trade material, but even with that he'll keep his spot with Mooney getting old...

I wasn't talking about the position on any list. It was simply a statement that those methods of throwing someone into the ruck, or on the ball to get them Into the flow of the game, is used to try to get the player up & get some confidence. You don't give up until the time has finished.

Newton has always had talent - that's not his problem.

nutshell ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

its between those ears..always has been

Newton's issues are that he does not contest anywhere near hard enough. His desire has shown to be lacking, he is terrible below his knees and supposed strength, goal kicking is abysmal.

Other than that he's OK.

There's not that much between them actually. The big difference clearly has been opportunity. Hawkins early poor contributions were carried and it has really only been in his last 20 or so games that he has shown anything consistently.

Newton-v-Hawkins

Misleading stats in terms of impact and contributions as a key forward.

Hawkins has kicked 3 goals in 8 matches, had 4 bags of 4 goals and kicked 5 in one outing. And what 'early poor contributions'??? He kicked a 3.2 and a pair of 4.1s in his first 5 games.

Our Michael's kicked 3 goals once.

He's no good. We all know he's no good. Frankly if he'd never taken that screamer I can't imagine anybody, anywhere would ever think he's any good. Clearly nobody else in the competition rates him in the slightest, he was effectively an undrafted player last year.

A kid? He's all of a year younger than Newton.

Whoa. That wasn't what I expected. Got me there.

I think it's difficult to discount the possibility entirely when he's never really played that role at AFL level and he appears to have been very impressive at VFL level.

Well he did. Earlier this year for a few games and was dropped quickly. Discounting the possibility isn't what I'm doing here. You have to look at the whole picture, which is that he's had lots of chances and not converted, he has 8 rounds left to save his spot which is hanging by a thread, he's not senior listed at the moment. All I'm saying is this doesn't seem like adding strings to the bow of a player you see has a future, like Dunn, it's really a KPP who can't play as a KPP, so you add a single role for him, which again he's not shown an aptitude for at AFL level. The big thing in his favour is our lack of forwards, which means, to me, that all he has to do is play a couple of good games at AFL level to be retained, since he's not getting squeezed out. It's the idea that he'll kick 4 in a couple of games that I have trouble believing. But hey, great if he can do it. I just wouldn't be putting any money on it.

And I reject the idea that this one good game in the VFL proves anything's changed. I went and saw him in, I think, his second year at Sandy and he kicked 5, marked everything, flew for everything, tackled anything that moved. It was a game I would say looked just like Jack Watts is capable of. He even kicked beautifully. In form and in execution/result. This latest VFL triumph is nothing new for Michael. He's always been very, very good in the VFL. Means nothing to me if he can't do it in the AFL, as I imagine he needs to in the next 8 weeks.

I wasn't talking about the position on any list. It was simply a statement that those methods of throwing someone into the ruck, or on the ball to get them Into the flow of the game, is used to try to get the player up & get some confidence. You don't give up until the time has finished.

I can't argue with that last line, and you'll find I actually agree. I reckon if he maintains his form in the VFL, if our forwards suck (or Spencer sucks), and if there's any room on the senior list (maybe Strauss?) then sure, give him another crack at it, or two. It's not like we have anything to lose. It's just when it comes to predicting an outcome here, he's lost my confidence. And I reckon that's fair enough. No-one supported him more on here during his first few years. Well... Except maybe Freak.

Newton has always had talent - that's not his problem.

Or maybe it IS his problem... Always been able to get by because of his obvious talent.

I am all for grooming Newton as a ruckman.

Why not? He hasn't panned out as a forward to date.

If he can become a capable backup ruckman he'd be more versatile than Spencer or PJ.

(and Brad Gotch certainly rates Newton's ability in the ruck according to this week's Casey review)

I am campaigning for Newton to remain on the rookie list for 2011.

I refuse to accept that there will be better options available. (McNamara may join him)

Delist Delist Delist.. FCS delist this spud. He is the biggest peaheart on our list. That is half our problem. I will accept mediocrity no more!!!!! He has had his chances and has shown NOTHING! If we offer him another 1 year deal I will spew! List clogger of the highest order

Or maybe it IS his problem... Always been able to get by because of his obvious talent.

I am all for grooming Newton as a ruckman.

Why not? He hasn't panned out as a forward to date.

If he can become a capable backup ruckman he'd be more versatile than Spencer or PJ.

(and Brad Gotch certainly rates Newton's ability in the ruck according to this week's Casey review)

I am campaigning for Newton to remain on the rookie list for 2011.

I refuse to accept that there will be better options available. (McNamara may join him)

Newton is definately worth keeping on the rookie list, at least.If they thought Hughes was worth keeping him there well surely Newton is.

Edited July 6, 201015 yr by jayceebee31

I was speaking to someone at the club earlier this year, and i think there are thoughts to try and develop him into second ruckman to Jamar. He is not as big as Jamar but has the capacity to get bigger muscle wise. What brings him down mostly is his goal kicking, so as a second ruckman, he wont be wasting the oppurtunities. Thoughts?

Interesting Idea, Not as silly as it sounds. Played ok at Casey last weekend.

He currently has a lot better basic skills than Spencer and PJ.

If it is a goer we should see him play in the ruck a lot more for Casey.

If it were a choice of retaining 1 of he Meesen or Johnson I'd give him the nod. But we need to see him at AFL level in that role before the year is out to see if there's discernible value.

Losing all 3 might be risky with only Spencer and very green Fitzpatrick and Gawn for back up. Remember we'll be looking to play finals next year. 6-8 wins will be a fail for Bails.

On the other with Goldstein progressing well at North I wonder if Hale or McIntosh could be lured into the red and blue?

I am certian continuosly playing Jamar without respite will shorten his career. Would we have won a game this year without Jamar in the side? Questionable for mine. Reasonable back up is required.

Well he did. Earlier this year for a few games and was dropped quickly. Discounting the possibility isn't what I'm doing here. You have to look at the whole picture, which is that he's had lots of chances and not converted, he has 8 rounds left to save his spot which is hanging by a thread, he's not senior listed at the moment. All I'm saying is this doesn't seem like adding strings to the bow of a player you see has a future, like Dunn, it's really a KPP who can't play as a KPP, so you add a single role for him, which again he's not shown an aptitude for at AFL level. The big thing in his favour is our lack of forwards, which means, to me, that all he has to do is play a couple of good games at AFL level to be retained, since he's not getting squeezed out. It's the idea that he'll kick 4 in a couple of games that I have trouble believing. But hey, great if he can do it. I just wouldn't be putting any money on it.

He may have very early this year but in a very haphazard fashion. Thrown in occasionally but that was it. I tend to think he may be a late developer - both physically and mentally.

That said, I am by no means convinced he'll make it - significantly because I am basing a view primarily on what I have read on Casey reports. It's not just one week though. They have been consistently good and occasionally outstanding. It's not the lack of tall forwards that's in his favour, it's the lack of (as TGR on Demonology would say) multidimensional talls and decent ruckmen.

Playing one ruckman is not a long term strategy for success. Leigh Matthews always played at least two, and even the best ruckmen - Cox and Sandilands - need a backup. And if you can combine that with the ability to push forward.....

I do agree with Dunn though. I have always been a fan and recall being shouted down (the week he was dropped this year if I recall correctly) when I suggested he could play a ruck/forward role. That said, I think Newton is physically more suited to the role, although Dunn is a much better forward option/prospect.

Misleading stats in terms of impact and contributions as a key forward.

Hawkins has kicked 3 goals in 8 matches, had 4 bags of 4 goals and kicked 5 in one outing. And what 'early poor contributions'??? He kicked a 3.2 and a pair of 4.1s in his first 5 games.

Our Michael's kicked 3 goals once.

He's no good. We all know he's no good. Frankly if he'd never taken that screamer I can't imagine anybody, anywhere would ever think he's any good. Clearly nobody else in the competition rates him in the slightest, he was effectively an undrafted player last year.

But the fact remains that Hawkins has a goal per game average 0.1 better than Newton and Hawkins has had the benefit of delivery by one of the best midfields of all time. The ball has also been in his vicinity more frequently as well. In the Geelong side Newton would have fared a lot better and perhaps even been a useful player.

Hey Champ,

Just noticed your avatar...sensational!

Let's just trade Newton, Miller, PJ and Meesen to Gold Coast for a fifth round draft pick. Sounds like good value to me.