POINT KICK_INS

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,799]

I felt that our inability to clear the ball from defence after Carlton points, plus our inability to stop Carlton surges into attack after our points, were important factors in our downfall on Saturday.

Do any other Demonlanders think this may have been of significance?

I do not think our players lack the skill to perfect this art, or at least do it as well as Carlton.

I think we should watch replays, study Carlton's zones, and the way they by-passed our zones. We should then attempt to copy them against Collingwood. We wouldn't do worse than our tactics against Carlton.

[ox_5 163]

First post here after making the change from Demonology. Good to be here and I am here for good.

This has always been an issue for us for as long as I can remember. We never have been able to do it as well as other teams, and stop teams from doing it to us.

From our kick ins - we never ever get the ball out quick enough. We continue to kick out as if the old rule of waiting for the flags to be waved was still around. Teams have plenty of time to set their zone, and our go long to Jared Rivers on the boundary option is used far too often.

From opposition kick ins - we never ever have our zone set up in time. When opposition is having a set shot for goal, we should be already in our zone. We never are. Regularly you would notice forwards jogging to fill space too late, as the ball has already been kicked out.

You are right, something does need to be done. We have been searching for an answer for years and I hope we find one soon.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

First post here after making the change from Demonology. Good to be here and I am here for good.

This has always been an issue for us for as long as I can remember. We never have been able to do it as well as other teams, and stop teams from doing it to us.

From our kick ins - we never ever get the ball out quick enough. We continue to kick out as if the old rule of waiting for the flags to be waved was still around. Teams have plenty of time to set their zone, and our go long to Jared Rivers on the boundary option is used far too often.

From opposition kick ins - we never ever have our zone set up in time. When opposition is having a set shot for goal, we should be already in our zone. We never are. Regularly you would notice forwards jogging to fill space too late, as the ball has already been kicked out.

You are right, something does need to be done. We have been searching for an answer for years and I hope we find one soon.

Welcome aboard Ox good to see you've crossed over too.

One thing they should do is never allow Grimes to kick in, I love the guy but he takes an eternity to kick it in and most of the time he finishes up kicking it to himself, playing on and then kicking it to a contest. It is so frustrating. Did you see Flash kick in at one stage to Beamer who just as a matter of interest had his back to him. Every club in the competition uses the kick in as a form of attack we use it to gift the opposition a goal.

It would be interesting to see just how many goals we have conceded this year from stuff ups following a point kick in.

[Range Rover 1,935]

First post here after making the change from Demonology. Good to be here and I am here for good.

Welcome Ox5Demon ... in for your first game in the ones! ; )

Kicking in from points has bdefinitely been a problem and I recall an in depth discussion on the subject after the West Coast

game a few weeks back. They had a burly kid named Shannon Hurn that day kicking low flying 65 meter passes to leading targets, basically bypassing

our zone and starting their attacking moves in one fell boot.

We just don't have a player back there with an accurate hoof like that unfortunately.

[ox_5 163]

Welcome aboard Ox good to see you've crossed over too.

One thing they should do is never allow Grimes to kick in, I love the guy but he takes an eternity to kick it in and most of the time he finishes up kicking it to himself, playing on and then kicking it to a contest. It is so frustrating. Did you see Flash kick in at one stage to Beamer who just as a matter of interest had his back to him. Every club in the competition uses the kick in as a form of attack we use it to gift the opposition a goal.

It would be interesting to see just how many goals we have conceded this year from stuff ups following a point kick in.

RobbieF, good to see you too. I assumed you had crossed over here also.

I agree, the Grimes kick out is the Jared Rivers long option I was referring to. Always play on to the right, up the line. Boring, old fashioned football.

If I get the time I will zoom through AFL Gameday analyser to work out the number, it would be pretty high I reckon.

[ox_5 163]

We just don't have a player back there with an accurate hoof like that unfortunately.

I would like Strauss to come in after the mid season break if he can show some form and be given sole responsibility of kick outs. His boot is a laser, and this will no doubt be his role once he matures and finds his place in the 22.

It would be great to have a Shannon Hurn, his kick is top 5 in the league.

[Guest DeesPower]

I felt that our inability to clear the ball from defence after Carlton points, plus our inability to stop Carlton surges into attack after our points, were important factors in our downfall on Saturday.

Do any other Demonlanders think this may have been of significance?

I do not think our players lack the skill to perfect this art, or at least do it as well as Carlton.

I think we should watch replays, study Carlton's zones, and the way they by-passed our zones. We should then attempt to copy them against Collingwood. We wouldn't do worse than our tactics against Carlton.

Quite agree Jumping Jack. It has been a hobby horse of mine for some time. In fact this is the biggest justification for playing strauss, his kicking long and accurate. If we can improve 50% on this issue alone it would go a long way to winning games. It is certainly worth a shot.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I felt that our inability to clear the ball from defence after Carlton points, plus our inability to stop Carlton surges into attack after our points, were important factors in our downfall on Saturday.

Do any other Demonlanders think this may have been of significance?

I do not think our players lack the skill to perfect this art, or at least do it as well as Carlton.

I think we should watch replays, study Carlton's zones, and the way they by-passed our zones. We should then attempt to copy them against Collingwood. We wouldn't do worse than our tactics against Carlton.

As much as I love him as a player - first thing we need to do is NOT LET GRIMES KICK IN!!! He turns the ball over more than anyone in our team when kicking if from full back.

As Ox5 hinted, we always struggle to get it out of D50, yet let it out of A50 far too easily. It's a good idea to watch what Carlton do, but then again, don't just stop with them! A majority of the sides in the AFL are better than us in this area.

So, when I criticise our team in an area, I really should have an idea of how to fix it! I believe we need to move it out of the goal square a lot faster than what we do. This will put the opposition on the back foot and give them less time to set their zone. If we can get it to 80-90m away from goal quicker, it will release pressure on our backline. We need to have more than one option as our kick-in person, but whoever it is and however many we have, they must be able to kick a solid 50-60m. There will be times that the zone is set up, so the easiest way to beat it is to kick over it, and the easiest way to do that is for the kick-in person to play on and gain an extra 10 metres, so that will allow us to kick to a target that is around that 70-80m distance away from goal.

I also think we shouldn't just kick it to Jamar or Rivers. There needs to be more targets, especially from or wings and half back flanks. Blokes like Morton, Gysberts, Trengove, they should be getting a lot more of the ball from a kick in. For this to happen, they have to work their ass off and present strong hard leads. Even if they aren't honoured, it will take another player out of the next zone, freeing up more space for our half forwards to lead in to. At that stage, those wings etc (ie Trengove, Morton, Gysberts, etc) should be running through getting the ball off the half forwards, then hitting our forwards. Sounds easy, looks easy when I play it over in my head, just need to do it!

The biggest positive is that most of the names I mentioned are part of the next generation. It will happen - I have great faith in the players at the club now, and those yet to debut or who have had a taste. Plus, we cant really knock our development of the backline as it isn't far from being in the top tier of defences in the league.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I would like Strauss to come in after the mid season break if he can show some form and be given sole responsibility of kick outs. His boot is a laser, and this will no doubt be his role once he matures and finds his place in the 22.

It would be great to have a Shannon Hurn, his kick is top 5 in the league.

Welcome 'ox_5_demons', aboard the goodship Demonland. It would be good to see Straussy back in the red'n'blue, I think Rnd14 would be a good Rnd for him to have to take that responsibility. The Saints game @ Etihad Stadium, 4.40PM.

That would be a good environment I think with the roof shut, & we'd also need his run 'n' carry with precise foot skills to try penetrate the Saints zone on the skinny Dome.

This game against the Saints followed by games against the Dons, Freo, Swans, & Lions,,, may be our best opportunity to set him on-course.

[Kiss of Death 755]

I'd like to welcome back this topic. Should be a sticky

[pitchfork 181]

Here's what I think I'm seeing (criticism welcome)

An interesting league-wide trend has been the number of long kicks from kick outs directly to talls.

Teams are finding 16 man zones very difficult to deal with and thus a great number of kicks go to ruckmen on the flanks.

* actually like Grimes kicking in - don't think there's much difference between t/o's when he and Davey are kicking out. Really hate when Garland is kicking out, never takes a risk and I'd guess that if you looked at the net result of the kick outs Grimes' would actually end up with more positive results. Sure Garland et al takes the safer option but it more often results in minimal ball movement, stoppages within goal range etc... Grimes' decision making will improve while his endeavour will remain

Edited June 7, 2010 by pitchfork

[H_T 3,047]

I would like Strauss to come in after the mid season break if he can show some form and be given sole responsibility of kick outs. His boot is a laser, and this will no doubt be his role once he matures and finds his place in the 22.

It would be great to have a Shannon Hurn, his kick is top 5 in the league.

Hurn top 5 ? Do you rate him on longest kick, or most accurate ? Fwiw his kicking efficiency against Geelong was 71% (21 Kicks).

PS. Welcome Ox.

[ox_5 163]

Hurn top 5 ? Do you rate him on longest kick, or most accurate ? Fwiw his kicking efficiency against Geelong was 71% (21 Kicks).

PS. Welcome Ox.

Im not big on stats, because they are never a true reflection of a players ability or how they went on a given day. However, his official disposal efficiency is usually up around 80%.

I rate his kicking on the damage it does to the opposition. It breaks lines, there are very very few who can do it like him. Whether it is a kick out which breaks the zone; a gather on half back which hits a forward on half forward; or a long shot at goal on the run from inside the square, he will generally get the job done better than most.

He has a great ability to hit targets short or long with flat flying drop punts. I cant really think of many who I would prefer breaking the lines by foot. He is up there with Goddard, Josh Hunt, Gilbee, Chapman & TJ off the top of my head in my opinion.

[Carn Melbourne 0]

IMO the problem is a lack of movement from the Melbourne players and plays into the oppositions zone.

This means the only option is a risky precise kick or a long bomb to Jamar.

[volders 22]

IMO the problem is a lack of movement from the Melbourne players and plays into the oppositions zone.

This means the only option is a risky precise kick or a long bomb to Jamar.

Unfortunately teams are kind of catching on to our long bomb to Jamar strategy, I remember specifically against WC, Cox and NN stood either side of Jamar we still tried to bomb it to him. It's amazing how bad we are at kick-ins (and have been for some time) surely we should dissect how the top teams manage to do it with ease vs us and implement similar strategies.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,799]

I reckon it's interesting.

This topic rouses no interest on Demonland.

It seems it's the same with the footy dept.as far as point kick-ins go. No interest. No tactical change . No innovation.

The result???? We play at an enormous disadvantage to the other teams, who regard the opposition scoring a point as a turnover in possession and a chance to set up an attack.

I do not think it is a lack of skill in our players compared to the other teams. It may be a lack of running......small "engines" in younger players, but we're not much younger than a lot of the sides(eg Haw.,North, and Coll.)who seem to be much more active,running around providing options when they're kicking in.

Have I underestimated the thought put into this aspect of play by the footy dept?

Do I over-estimate the importance of kick-ins.?

I know that one is much more liable to notice errors and defects in one's own team, but I watch non-Melbourne games on TV with a relatively open mind, and I keep thinking we're deficient in comparison.

I know I seem obsessed by this, and bring it up over and over again, but I can't help feeling it's of crucial significance.

[H_T 3,047]

I would like Strauss to come in after the mid season break if he can show some form and be given sole responsibility of kick outs.

Quite agree Jumping Jack. It has been a hobby horse of mine for some time. In fact this is the biggest justification for playing strauss, his kicking long and accurate.

So far quite a few have aired their concerns on Grimes taking the kick outs. I would consider Grimes and Davey, two of our better options for the kick out after a registered behind. Funny thing is, the more Grimes does kick out, the greater chance of error/turnover. If we put the ball in the hand of 12 others, would any of them be as, or more effective, as Grimes ?

Maybe, the club has already tried this...it would be naive to think they haven't.

I'm of the opinion of trying out Strauss, but clearly the club wants him to earn his spot in the team by developing him further at Casey and is probably recognised as not being ready for what the club wants..... ie. other aspects (such as being more accountable, working on his rebounding, perhaps his kicking) of his game must need more work on.

I reckon it's interesting.

This topic rouses no interest on Demonland.

Disagree. You've raised the topic a few times now and many have discussed it. I gather you're after a monster thread in terms of interest. Good luck in that regard, although I think many would agree with your view, and therefore find it hard to debate.

Have I underestimated the thought put into this aspect of play by the footy dept?

Do I over-estimate the importance of kick-ins.?

I think many would acknowledge its a part of the game that takes on significant importance. When teams get it right and use it to their advantage, teams can often go the journey of the field for a goal.

I know I seem obsessed by this, and bring it up over and over again, but I can't help feeling it's of crucial significance.

There is an interest here JJC. Perhaps others find other aspects of greater significance.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,799]

We must develop a better strategy to defend opposition kick-ins. Collingwood were lethal today.

When Aaron Davey took over our kick-ins, we did much better. Like Collingwood, he kicks in quickly, and often to long options.

[deanox 9,926]

my take on this today: we looked better when there was some movement - which today was bate. there needs to be more movement with players presenting, thats the best way to break the zone.

point 2: today, a number of times, a player was on his own, straight out in front 35-40 m from goal BUT by the time the players bumbled around and decided to swap kickers and got back into the square the zone had closed that spot up.

i would like to see 'quick kick ins' and that means getting ready to kick it quickly and having 2-3 players whose job it is to make an early lead into space as an option. if the option is no good, or there is a hold up with the ball thats fine, we can kick long and wide to jamar/bate/the boundary line, but i'd like to see us try and get a quick kick straight up the ground.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I felt that our inability to clear the ball from defence after Carlton points, plus our inability to stop Carlton surges into attack after our points, were important factors in our downfall on Saturday.

Do any other Demonlanders think this may have been of significance?

I do not think our players lack the skill to perfect this art, or at least do it as well as Carlton.

I think we should watch replays, study Carlton's zones, and the way they by-passed our zones. We should then attempt to copy them against Collingwood. We wouldn't do worse than our tactics against Carlton.

Please use a different title Jack, this is as boring as kiddy crap.

[Prof 15]

Start by observing successful oppositions and copying some of their strategies. For example: C'wood!!

[w00dy 146]

we need davey to take as many kick ins as possible... he's not scared to hit up a player at centre half back in the middle of the zone... it opens up our options, and often he runs hard and gets the ball back in his hands, where he can hit another target...

[Eth 4]

Tell the defenders to pretend they have five seconds to get the ball after a behind and kick it outside 50.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

We didn't do too badly after the first quarter considering how many times we actually had to kick out!

Davey is a freak at kick ins. I'd suggest he does them wherever in the vicinity, otherwise continue the focus of taking quick ones.

[Go the Biff 3,432]

As usual when this topic comes up posters are focussing on who does the kicking as opposed to who is offering something to kick to. You could have Bernie Quinlan kicking in but if you don't get your leads & structure up the ground right, it will turn over & come back.