Keep Jared Rivers Thread

[howlongtowait 0]

This is not a trading thead as much, rather a KEEPING thread.

He was injury plagued for over than 2 years, but came back this year and play solid footy.

He takes on all but the biggest forward and rarely get beaten.

He reads play very well, sneaks out to the wing and delivers inside 50s.

He is our only rising star winner since the award started in 1993.

With so many senior players delisted and retired, he is one of the senior player in the team.

KEEP HIM!

[H_T 3,049]

Do you have Rivers Inside 50's stat handy? Cheers.

[Axis of Bob 11,853]

This year he amassed 9 inside 50s.

[Dee tention 617]

Hawthorns Pick 9 and 25 up for grabs! Great opportunity to develop our forward line!

Jamar and Rivers gone!

Give me someone else who could get the deal done? And we will keep Rivers!

Jamar + ????? = Pick 9 and 25. Hawthorn need a Ruck and Backman.

Morton should be our loose man in defence. Warnock, Frawley, Garland and Martin key defenders. Grimes and Cheney smaller defenders + others.

Can even use Miller as backup if we decide to keep him.

Would prefer to deal for Ports 8 and 24 though.

[classy dees 42]

i wasnt going to post on this topic but i couldnt help but give my 2c on this one.

despite the lure of a top pick (even then realistically no team is likely to give a top 10 pick up given the concessions next year) i would be loathe to trade rivers.

At half rat pace this year after two years out he was able to show his true qualities. there is no doubt that he had his troubles on the lead, but his ability to judge the contest and provide cover was still second to none. hopefully with a full preseason under his belt he will gain that extra bit.

secondly i'd be loathe to trade quality key defenders. whilst there are arguments suggesting the game is changing and that the need for a 3rd man up specialising defender is less so than before rivers has old fashion defensive qualities that are so extremely important. the rationale for trading him is obviously that we have cover. but when you analyse it properly it is definitely no easy call. garland like it or not has a career threatening injury and DB has been quoted as wanting to try him forward, martin is learning the craft of afl and has been dangled in other areas of the ground and frawley and warnock look pretty good so far. it is with great trepidation here that i bring up the example of nathan carroll. carroll was arguably AA FB in 2006. we all know how that turned out. not for a second am i likening either of those two chaps to that lunatic but things can change quickly and if the game changes and you cant adapt, you will especially be found out in key defensive posts. that said both of these players hold great promise.

i think more importantly rivers brigns leadership and a calm head to a young, naive and inexperienced team. with 5 picks last year and arguably the same this year our list is already exceptionally young. you cannot win a GF with only kids. 23-27 year olds win you flags. these are seasoned and battle hardened bodies with experience that will win you hard finals games of football and are calm under pressure in tight games. with 6 top 20 picks in the last 2 years, i am confident that we will have enough top quality cattle when our time comes. given that junior will retire next year and bruce and green if still playing will be pushing or past 30 in our next finals campaign, the key players in that age group will be the daveys, rivers, mcleans, sylvias and moloneys etc. add to that 12 or 14 exciting youngsters that have been added in the last 3-4 years and it will be a nice mix. but you need enough players in that key age range.

rivers can and in my opinion will have a big influence on the way this football team rebuilds. if we get him right and with help from the other guys we can get many a season out of him. given our struggles with key defensive posts inthe 90's and 00's, trading rivers for picks just because we need to load up even more than we already have would be very risky.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

I add my vote to this thread. Rivers should be an untouchable. Why, when we finally have a decent backline and Rivers is finally getting back to match fitness and form, do people want to trade him? Pick 9? Could be a player or could be a dud. Pick 25? Might play 100 games if we are lucky. Hawthorn can trade with someone else as far as I'm concerned unless they want a Rivers / Roughead trade, and even then I wouldn't be happy.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

This year he amassed 9 inside 50s.

To be fair I think you need to take into account that for an entire year, we've missed Garland, who is both a KP defender and a play maker. This meant that the rest of the defenders have had less of a chance to create attacking opportunities. What are Frawley's inside 50 stats?

I recognise Rivers' shortcomings, and if pick 9 was on offer I'd seriously consider it, but I think the second half of this season he has shown that he can regain his early career form. He was fantastic on Kosi, who is taller and stronger than him, and when our midfield improves (and Garland returns), the opportunity to zone off will increase, and so will Rivers' form.

We have finally got a defense, and while we may look at Warnock, Frawley, Garland, Martin and Rivers and wonder how we're going to play all of these guys, we saw this year how easily a defence can be torn apart by injury. We managed to cover Garland's loss fairly well, but that's because we had three other top quality players ready to take his place. 5 KP defenders is an absolute minimum as far as I'm concerned. Past history tells us that you can never have too many quality talls, and this is especially true if we decide to turn Garland into a forward.

At the end of the day we have to ask, can we get someone better than Rivers with the pick we're likely to get for him?

[Tatu 416]

Rivers is worth far more than pick 9.

Martin has shown nothing compared to Rivers as a defender.

Warnock is our best one on one defender.

Frawley is now our best tall running defender.

Garland is our best closing down defender. (talls or smalls)

Rivers is the best all round defender.

these four are untouchable for mine, without these four players MFC go's backwards in it's development.

MFC strongest area on the ground is the defence.

[volders 22]

it's all just speculation, if we want a pick around 10 we have to give up someone good. no we aren't going to be trading bell+newton+pj for pick 9. that kind of pick would be nice for us as there are a few KPF that will go around there, not sure what kind of choice we will still have at 18 though. good tall backmen is the ONLY thing that we dont completely lack so if we are ever likely to trade someone for a decent pick it is likely to be from there. or possibly bruce/green who may be too old for our premiership window.

rivers is an excellent player, he reads the ball as good as anyone out there and he spoils brilliantly. however not sure how well he can play on big power forwards, he has been somewhat injury prone and has shown glimpses but never really recaptured his rising star year form.

we cant expect to trade off our lowest tier players and expect to get top picks, so if we were going to speculate on SOMEONE it was likely to be rivers.

Hawthorn can trade with someone else as far as I'm concerned unless they want a Rivers / Roughead trade, and even then I wouldn't be happy.

dont let him being your favourite player cloud your better judgement, rivers for roughead would be omg good

Edited September 3, 2009 by volders

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

dont let him being your favourite player cloud your better judgement

I will too. I don't have to make the hard calls so I can be as emotional as I like.

[rpfc 28,779]

I don't know what everyone's problem is - he won't go unless its an effing good deal.

Everyone is tradeable at the right price anyway, so don't take it personally.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Thats right..just keep everyone..for any reason ?? Facetious ?? of course.. poignant...yes.

MFC is a about a team...the team needs to be in its best health to work to its best potential. From time to time you have to replace parts of the team in the best interests of continuing progess. Whereever doubt or underachievement creep in then it must be addressed.

Its a tough game. No prisoners taken. When you start discussing the keeping or moving on of a player you must ask what is in the best intersts of the team. Nothing else matters. Its not an individual contest. Its not player versus player perse..Its team versus team. If it were a car and you could improve its performance by replacing a part with an upgraded component then you do. Its no slight on the replaced part its just not as productive. Its exactly the same with players in a team. if you can change them for a better player or one that will become a better player then its just too logical to ignore.

Jared will now be compared to others...if another player shows more, has more upside or is a better fit in some other capacity then you trade Jared if there is one to be had of suitable value. Its as simple as that..and same applies to anyone.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I don't know what everyone's problem is - he won't go unless its an effing good deal.

Everyone is tradeable at the right price anyway, so don't take it personally.

Correct.

Could someone at least claim that Rivers "bleeds red and blue" then we know that he is untouchable?

[CarnTheDees 52]

IMO I would much prefer to trade Warnock than Rivers. With Garland back we are too tall in defence and for mine the weak link is Warnock. On the odd occasion that we might need his extra strength against someone like Rocca/Hale/Minson (not many of their type left though) we have Stef Martin who I think will end up playing like a Ben Holland/Drew Petrie type (swinging forward and back to get the right match-ups).

I don't have much of an idea as to Warnock's perceived value/ability in the wider AFL community - certainly he is well regarded amongst MFC supporters, but if we could sneak a top-20 pick for him then I think that would represent good value.

[beelzebub 23,383]

oh btw...apparently Jared bleeds red and blue

[DeeMfc 621]

IMO I would much prefer to trade Warnock than Rivers. With Garland back we are too tall in defence and for mine the weak link is Warnock. On the odd occasion that we might need his extra strength against someone like Rocca/Hale/Minson (not many of their type left though) we have Stef Martin who I think will end up playing like a Ben Holland/Drew Petrie type (swinging forward and back to get the right match-ups).

I don't have much of an idea as to Warnock's perceived value/ability in the wider AFL community - certainly he is well regarded amongst MFC supporters, but if we could sneak a top-20 pick for him then I think that would represent good value.

Bailey has mentioned on numerous occasions very recently that Garland will more than likely be a KPF that will go back into defence only when needed.

Therefore negating the need for another KPF with the first two picks in the draft

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

oh btw...apparently Jared bleeds red and blue

Case dismissed. He stays until the bleeding stops!!!

[beelzebub 23,383]

Bailey has mentioned on numerous occasions very recently that Garland will more than likely be a KPF that will go back into defence only when needed.

Therefore negating the need for another KPF with the first two picks in the draft

Thanks ...had had that in the back of my mind and youve promted my thinking. I also have caught Bails mentioning this from time to time and wondered about all the conections and that makes quite a bit of sense.

The make up of trade and drafting is also reliant upon who will or wont stay /come into the respective forward and backlines.

Weve a number of options.. Martin?garland eventually lobbing forward..yet both can play back. Frawley and Warnock would take the first two forwards , Garland the third if in defence .. if he goes forward..is Grimes the man for the 3rd ? Either scenario there is no absolute need for Rivers... someone somewhere is expendabe. Some may offer up Rivers as insurance here. Hell if his fit and up and going...why not. If he's back on the dodgy wagon he really hase limited value.

If you're shrewd youd trade , or seek to, Rivers now. Simply more of a case to do so than to keep.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

Rivers is worth far more than pick 9.

I would take pick 9 in a heart beat. Hawthorn couldn't be that stupid. Rivers is injury prone, slow and an ordinary kick. He's worth a pick between 30 and 40.

[CarnTheDees 52]

I would take pick 9 in a heart beat. Hawthorn couldn't be that stupid. Rivers is injury prone, slow and an ordinary kick. He's worth a pick between 30 and 40.

He's also the best 'defender' that we have.

In a marking contest against a Reiwoldt-type forward I would much rather have Rivers than Frawley/Warnock/Garland trying to spoil.

[beelzebub 23,383]

He's also the best 'defender' that we have.

In a marking contest against a Reiwoldt-type forward I would much rather have Rivers than Frawley/Warnock/Garland trying to spoil.

ya werent paying atention then on Sunday..Id much rather Frawley on Roo than Riv

Rivers was our best defender....thats the whole thrust of this...he was. That ship I feel has sailed. Others are overtaking him.

[sylvinator 96]

I believe it would be a big mistake to trade ANY of the key defenders and an even bigger mistake to trade Jamar.

Firstly on Jamar- most ruckman take until 25 to mature. Jamar is now a capable ruckman who at least breaks even with almost every senior afl ruckman out there. He is good with his tap work and can take a clunk up forward. We also have no one in the reserves- PJ will probably be delisted this year, Meesan has played 2 afl games and who the fark knows, and Spenser is raw as hell and not even on our senior list. Do NOT trade away our number 1 ruckman.

On Trading Rivers or ANY of the KPB- does anyone realize how lucky we are to be in the position we are in. We have 4-5 good options down back, but more importantly all play a different role. Garland and Frawley can play on tall and small and provide run from the backline as well. Warnock takes to big power forwards. Rivers is the general of the defence, the glue that sticks it all together. He is still capable of beating fowards 1 on 1 and reads the play well. Martin is versatile enough to play in the ruck and up forward, but can also take any Key defensive role if others go down injured.

Rivers is the most important player in that back line. Do not put our one major strength at jeapardy for a draft pick. Even pick 9 is still a gamble! What if we get a David Trotter or Luke Molan... it happens every year!

Let's keep all our defenders and create the best defence in the afl.

If you want to see how important key defenders are, look what happened to Hawthorn when Croad went down, and how the cats struggle when Harley or Scarlett isn't in the team. Key defenders are crucial. Do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT trade them for picks.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Syl..et all.. I hear you...but.. lets not focus on what our team is now...but on what it needs to be in 3-5. Rivers , I doubt will be up to speed then. He's already slower now than he was. Possibly a really...REALLY good preseason may see himcome back.. but Im not holding out. Been there too often now. Rivers ,like it or not is no Croad, Harley or Scarlett.

Trade him while we can.

Jamar may want to go. So many whispers and rumours...so littel real info on this. I would rather keep him also.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

i wasnt going to post on this topic but i couldnt help but give my 2c on this one.

despite the lure of a top pick (even then realistically no team is likely to give a top 10 pick up given the concessions next year) i would be loathe to trade rivers.

At half rat pace this year after two years out he was able to show his true qualities. there is no doubt that he had his troubles on the lead, but his ability to judge the contest and provide cover was still second to none. hopefully with a full preseason under his belt he will gain that extra bit.

secondly i'd be loathe to trade quality key defenders. whilst there are arguments suggesting the game is changing and that the need for a 3rd man up specialising defender is less so than before rivers has old fashion defensive qualities that are so extremely important. the rationale for trading him is obviously that we have cover. but when you analyse it properly it is definitely no easy call. garland like it or not has a career threatening injury and DB has been quoted as wanting to try him forward, martin is learning the craft of afl and has been dangled in other areas of the ground and frawley and warnock look pretty good so far. it is with great trepidation here that i bring up the example of nathan carroll. carroll was arguably AA FB in 2006. we all know how that turned out. not for a second am i likening either of those two chaps to that lunatic but things can change quickly and if the game changes and you cant adapt, you will especially be found out in key defensive posts. that said both of these players hold great promise.

i think more importantly rivers brigns leadership and a calm head to a young, naive and inexperienced team. with 5 picks last year and arguably the same this year our list is already exceptionally young. you cannot win a GF with only kids. 23-27 year olds win you flags. these are seasoned and battle hardened bodies with experience that will win you hard finals games of football and are calm under pressure in tight games. with 6 top 20 picks in the last 2 years, i am confident that we will have enough top quality cattle when our time comes. given that junior will retire next year and bruce and green if still playing will be pushing or past 30 in our next finals campaign, the key players in that age group will be the daveys, rivers, mcleans, sylvias and moloneys etc. add to that 12 or 14 exciting youngsters that have been added in the last 3-4 years and it will be a nice mix. but you need enough players in that key age range.

rivers can and in my opinion will have a big influence on the way this football team rebuilds. if we get him right and with help from the other guys we can get many a season out of him. given our struggles with key defensive posts inthe 90's and 00's, trading rivers for picks just because we need to load up even more than we already have would be very risky.

Couldn't have said it any better myself....Or had the patience to write as much. Rivers a must keep for mine!

[deeflog 679]

Rivers is worth far more than pick 9.

Martin has shown nothing compared to Rivers as a defender.

Warnock is our best one on one defender.

Frawley is now our best tall running defender.

Garland is our best closing down defender. (talls or smalls)

Rivers is the best all round defender.

these four are untouchable for mine, without these four players MFC go's backwards in it's development.

MFC strongest area on the ground is the defence.

they can't all play in the same team in defence together, we would just get exploited by opposition coaches who would go small on us. One is expendable, and Rivers would get us the best deal, and if things got desperate down there, we could throw Martin or Miller down there