What is the essence of a football club's existence ?

[Jarka 767]

You were there in 87, but I am a softy, I was there also, do you have any idea how hard it is to believe in something so much [like winning ] when most everybody else thinks its ok to barrack for the opposition and you are some sort of retard. Its not easy at all, not the soft way to go.

I believe in the red and blue and I will continue to believe in them now matter what or who. I follow the mighty Melbourne football club no matter where it goes, were you at the merger metting at the Dallas Brooks hall back in 96?

If you were, think back to the night and try to picture question time. The first question from the floor was from softy me, I asked Ian Ridley a question regarding the make up of the new board. The great IR stood there not saying a word not even a no comment for his members. So I asked him again not satisfied with his contempt, what I am trying to say ,me soft, your dreaming.

You continue to barrack for the opposition and I will still hang out for the DEES.

I was there that night at DBH and not at one stage did Tiger Ridley treat anyone with contempt.

What I did see however were greats of our club being abused.

[Roost It 1,434]

That's not the question though and thats not what people who disagree are saying. Of course the aim of the MFC is to win premierships.

It is the question.

a) yes, as a supporter I believe that winning a flag is the sole reason for a club's existence

[torpedo 33]

Not cynical just a realist.

Also, branding and marketshare has always existed, we just have a name them now.

Great example of marketshare is to go back and have a look at the East India Company, it's competitors were furious with the grants and trade monoplies it was given by the British government. Complete marketshare.

Thats nice.

As I said, football clubs (not the East India Company) have been making positive contributions to society since long before branding and market share (had much at all to do with football). Why did they do it then?

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

You were there in 87, but I am a softy, I was there also, do you have any idea how hard it is to believe in something so much [like winning ] when most everybody else thinks its ok to barrack for the opposition and you are some sort of retard. Its not easy at all, not the soft way to go.

I believe in the red and blue and I will continue to believe in them now matter what or who. I follow the mighty Melbourne football club no matter where it goes, were you at the merger metting at the Dallas Brooks hall back in 96?

If you were, think back to the night and try to picture question time. The first question from the floor was from softy me, I asked Ian Ridley a question regarding the make up of the new board. The great IR stood there not saying a word not even a no comment for his members. So I asked him again not satisfied with his contempt, what I am trying to say ,me soft, your dreaming.

You continue to barrack for the opposition and I will still hang out for the DEES.

I was at the Merger Meeting Yes. & do tell me when have i ever barracked for the opposition?? I hope the club pick up the top Draft Picks this year, as next year the Draft is all but gone.

I want the Club to have the Best shot at Winning that Big silver Cup in the not to distant Future.

You are Happy to accept mediocrity as long as the Demons exist...

[old55 23,597]

For those who said they wouldnt follow the DEES if they knew we wouldnt win a flag, theres the door.My simple answer to the meaning of life, is, I am 58 now, if god came down today and told me I would live to be 100. BUT the DEEs in my time would never win a flag I would still be at the G on Sunday barracking for my mighty DEES.

Your "there's the door" position is as extreme as Hannibal's.

Frankly for Hannibal and me if it was the case - that NO premiership was guaranteed - we'd be gone.

That's no more or less valid that your motivation.

The club has a constitution as explained by Bob which covers a broad range of aims.

Each supporter subscribes to a substantial set of them or is misinformed and therefore misaligned.

I'm not operating under the assumption that MFC's sole aim is to win flags, but I do believe it is a primary aim and it's my primary aim for supporting MFC.

I love football and would follow it whether there was MFC or not.

I know everyone doesn't agree with me.

I support MFC to primarily to win the flag.

But I don't assume that everyone does.

[torpedo 33]

It is the question.

a) yes, as a supporter I believe that winning a flag is the sole reason for a club's existence

You said "Let's, as a club, tell them that premeirships aren't our sole aim."

'aim' and 'reason for existence' or 'essence of existence' are two entirely different things. Most of the people who have commented saying they disagree with option a) have stated that they still believe the club's aim is to win premierships.

[youami 54]

If Dees dont deliver a premiership from this rebuild, we're gone. We cannot afford another rebuild like this one. We need a premiership in the next 5-10 years, preferably more.

Why are we potentially gone? Because we have had no success for over 40 years. Same thing happened to Fitzroy and South Melbourne.

If that's the case, there will be no community camps, no family days, no visiting crook kids.

Therefore the sole purpose of a football club is to win premierships, otherwise you end up, eventually like the Dodo.

[Trisul 664]

The sole purpose of the thread has been achieved. Hannibal, you are in the majority.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Trident

[Jarka 767]

Thats nice.

As I said, football clubs (not the East India Company) have been making positive contributions to society since long before branding and market share (had much at all to do with football). Why did they do it then?

Branding and marketshare has always exited in AFL/VFL footy, I feel like I'm going around in circles here.

In the 50's the MFC had both in spades, mostly due to the MCC and the strengths and connections it brought to the club.

Once again, to suggest that people do these things purely out of the goodness of their hearts is naive.

Edit: Everyone knows the Collingwood brand and it's always been like this.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Jarka

[Axis of Bob 11,830]

Hanna,

If your answer is that you would prefer to see the MFC survive rather than be handed a premiership then you have answered your own question - the premiership, therefore, is not the sole objective.

You would prefer to see your club play than only win premierships. That's what's written in the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club constitution clause 1.2 a)

to hold and maintain its license from the Australian Football League (or its successor) entitling the Corporation to operate an Australian Football League club and to field a football team or teams in the national Australian Football competition and any other Australian Football competition administered by the Australian Football League (or its successor);

One of the stated objectives of the club is simply to exist as an entity. Winning a premiership aids the club in that goal, as many people want to see a premiership which will increase the number of people that become involved with the club and hence increase revenue and allow the club to continue as an entity.

As you can see a premiership is simply a means to an end rather than the sole objective, or 'essence' of the club's existence. Nobody is arguing that a flag is not important because it is important as it helps the club achieve its objectives. But it certainly isn't the sole reason why a club exists, as you claim.

If you can't understand that then we are done with this discussion.

The facts are there if you are prepared to accept them. You don't even have to call it a loss, you can just say that we agreed to disagree.

[old55 23,597]

If Dees dont deliver a premiership from this rebuild, we're gone. We cannot afford another rebuild like this one. We need a premiership in the next 5-10 years, preferably more.

Why are we potentially gone? Because we have had no success for over 40 years. Same thing happened to Fitzroy and South Melbourne.

If that's the case, there will be no community camps, no family days, no visiting crook kids.

Therefore the sole purpose of a football club is to win premierships, otherwise you end up, eventually like the Dodo.

Western Bulldogs, St.Kilda? 1 flag each in a total of approximately 100 completed seasons.

By your logic North Melbourne would be guaranteed and St.Kilda would be doomed.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

If Dees dont deliver a premiership from this rebuild, we're gone. We cannot afford another rebuild like this one. We need a premiership in the next 5-10 years, preferably more.

Why are we potentially gone? Because we have had no success for over 40 years. Same thing happened to Fitzroy and South Melbourne.

If that's the case, there will be no community camps, no family days, no visiting crook kids.

Therefore the sole purpose of a football club is to win premierships, otherwise you end up, eventually like the Dodo.

I was just about to mention Fitzroy & South Melbourne but you beat me too it.

Those two clubs died because they won no Flags for years. The Support Base dwindled & the Money ran out.

I am not prepared to watch Melbourne go down that Road any Further.

[rpfc 28,468]

Winning flags is the raison detre of footy clubs.

Simple as that.

Edited: 'For' or 'of'....

Edited July 29, 2009 by rpfc

[torpedo 33]

If Dees dont deliver a premiership from this rebuild, we're gone. We cannot afford another rebuild like this one. We need a premiership in the next 5-10 years, preferably more.

Why are we potentially gone? Because we have had no success for over 40 years. Same thing happened to Fitzroy and South Melbourne.

If that's the case, there will be no community camps, no family days, no visiting crook kids.

Therefore the sole purpose of a football club is to win premierships, otherwise you end up, eventually like the Dodo.

I agree that if the MFC doesn't win a premiership this era we are in deep [censored].

The Doggies haven't won a premiership in 55 years and they are still here though. Why? The Doggies are the most community based club in the AFL. People want them to exist, whether they are winning premierships or not.

Meanwhile you have North Melbourne who clearly show that premiership success does not equate to longevity.

The MFC recognise the importance of a strong community base, hence Casey, which primary purpose is about forming a stronger football club and ensuring it is still around in decades to come, not to win a premiership.

[Einstein 1]

Well it seems another debate here (like the tanking debate) has turned into people on either side of the argument trying to make it a black and white issue when it isn't, and distorting one another's arguments and taking them out of context. To what end exactly?

I don't think this debate is so much about why a football club exists. I think it's essentially a debate now between those who see winning a premiership as their sole reason for following the club and those who see winning a premiership as one of many reasons why they follow the club.

Neither is wrong.

And neither argument suggests that an individual supporter hurts for a premiership any more or less than anyone else.

I want to win a premiership about as much as anything in this world. But it isn't the sole reason I am a supporter and member of the club. There are many other aspects of following a football club that I enjoy. Being a part of a premeirship club however, is certainly the ultimate dream. To suggest that a clubs primary ambition isn't a premiership would indeed be foolish.

But there are other things that I enjoy. Recently here on Demonland, we as a group helped raise money to get Liam Jurrah's debut jumper back to his home community. I donated happily to the cause without any thinking that this could somehow help us win a premiership. It simply wasn't a motivation. I did it because I wanted to be a part of something that to me, is greater than football, and that is people and community.

A football club can be about more than winning a premiership and that doesn't diminish its focus or intent on winning that premiership. It doesn't mean it is any more or less serious about reaching the ultimate goal of winning a flag. A football club can mean more than just one thing, though that thing may be it's primary reason for being.

Likewise, a supporter can enjoy many aspects of being a member of a football club not just onfield success, even though we would all agree that this is what we by far enjoy and hope for most of all. And because I enjoy many varied aspects of being a club member doesn't mean I don't regard and passionatly yearn for a premiership most of all. To suggest that this attitude is somehow perpetuating a culture of failure within the club is an unfair distortion and does nothing to assist an argument otherwise.

In the end, this just seems like another "I'm more serious about a premiership than you" pissing contest. I know how much I have and continue to ache for a premiership for this club. That's good enough for me.

Ultimately, I don't really understand the need for this debate. It just seems like a whole lot of semantic acrobatics going on. But hey, this is an internet discussion forum afterall.

[rpfc 28,468]

I agree that if the MFC doesn't win a premiership this era we are in deep [censored].

The Doggies haven't won a premiership in 55 years and they are still here though. Why? The Doggies are the most community based club in the AFL. People want them to exist, whether they are winning premierships or not.

Meanwhile you have North Melbourne who clearly show that premiership success does not equate to longevity.

The MFC recognise the importance of a strong community base, hence Casey, which primary purpose is about forming a stronger football club and ensuring it is still around in decades to come, not to win a premiership.

Exist, yes. But exist to win a flag.

You can't simply say that this club exists so it can exist. That is circular logic at its worst.

[furious d 464]

I think we're all in complete agreement that the primary objective of a footy club is to win flags. My primary objective right now is to pay off my mortgage as quickly as possible, but it's not the reason I exist. This whole debate is semantics.

For me "sole purpose" or "reason for existence" are a bit strong as I believe footy clubs are so much more than the goal they set out to achieve. Doesn't mean I want a flag any less than anyone else.

[old55 23,597]

I agree that if the MFC doesn't win a premiership this era we are in deep [censored].

The Doggies haven't won a premiership in 55 years and they are still here though. Why? The Doggies are the most community based club in the AFL. People want them to exist, whether they are winning premierships or not.

Meanwhile you have North Melbourne who clearly show that premiership success does not equate to longevity.

The MFC recognise the importance of a strong community base, hence Casey, which primary purpose is about forming a stronger football club and ensuring it is still around in decades to come, not to win a premiership.

Correct.

Are Adelaide and West Coast more valid football clubs than St.Kilda and Western Bulldogs?

They've won twice as many flags?

[Doggo 32]

Wow, what an epic thread.

I don't even know where to start. I voted A, yes... a Flag is everything for me.

[Jaded No More 68,926]

I voted A, yes... a Flag is everything for me.

It is to me as well, but is our need to see premiership success the essence of the MFC's existence?

Existential debates never end well...

[old55 23,597]

Exist, yes. But exist to win a flag.

You can't simply say that this club exists so it can exist. That is circular logic at its worst.

uh-oh "meaning of life" alert

[torpedo 33]

Exist, yes. But exist to win a flag.

You can't simply say that this club exists so it can exist. That is circular logic at its worst.

Yes, that would be circular logic. I never said that though. Perhaps try reading the thread before putting words in my mouth?

Edited July 29, 2009 by torpedo

[Hannabal 4]

Hannibal,

If your answer is that you would prefer to see the MFC survive rather than be handed a premiership then you have answered your own question - the premiership, therefore, is not the sole objective.

Of course a flag is the sole reason of a competing club existing, but an on-going participation in the competition in question is a given - note the word existing in the OP. Stop wasting my time with silly questions.

[Axis of Bob 11,830]

So you simply tell me that my question is silly and therefore the point that it makes is not important or valid. Disappointing.

I'm done here. As someone said earlier this is just a pissing contest, as so many of your debates are.

Enjoy your playtime, Nelson.

[H_T 3,047]

Sometimes but not always, often any positive flow on effect is purely coincidental. I don't think premierships are at the back of the club's minds when they send players along to a hospital to visit kids dying of cancer.

So clearly that is not an initiative geared towards winning premierships. It is an initiative of a football club, doing what a football clubs does, bringing people together and helping out in the community.

I never said always. It is showing initiative by getting out there in the community, getting amongst every day issues. No, it's not 'directly' geared towards premierships, however indirectly it can contribute to further sponsorship alternatives down the track and improved facilities that help build a club towards their goals including a Premiership. So, indirectly in most or some cases.

Indeed and Mother Theresa was essentially self-serving too.

Reductionist arguments have their limitations.

Good for you.

Well that's what this argument is really about - limitations.

Correct.

That's not the question though and thats not what people who disagree are saying. Of course the aim of the MFC is to win premierships.

Indeed it is the essence.

Edited July 29, 2009 by High Tower