not contributing to the discussion

works both ways nancy

I said in DISCUSSION would Australia pick a keeper or a backstop

this is current as the backstop is to help the brittle batting line up

you quoted figures and an ashes record

my response to that was to point out dropped catches count more than taken ones

I consider this discussion

you don't as it doesn't agree with your ideas

then TD comes up with figures

and YOU opine,and discount the figures

it seems to me if it doesn't go your way,its not discussion worthy

ps. don't tell anybody but this is discussion on current day events

I thought that's what the page was about

didn't realise it was for private ideas and no other opinions

greg dyer and phil emery send their best wishes

OK, you want to keep going, we'll keep going. Apologies to everyone else on this thread.

You called Haddin a backstop. When it was pointed out that he'd just broken the record for most Ashes dismissals you said 'but it's the dropped catches that count'. But you haven't provided any evidence to suggest he's dropping catches.

You keep referring to him as 'the backstop' instead of by his name, attempting to denigrate him. That's not 'discussion' about whether he's a good keeper, it's stubborn rudeness.

I don't consider it discussion when, when challenged by RR, you responded with 'get your hand off it mate'. The irony of you attempting to say that I don't like other views is pertinent when your posts are always your statements of opinion (e.g. 'the best keeper by a mile is Tim Ludeman'. No evidence, not even a single reason why Ludeman is any good).

In the context of a keepr who has just broken the record for Ashes dismissals, you have no coherent argument to be writing Haddin off. You have no figures to suggest he's dropping the ball at an alarming rate, you have no evidence to suggest any other keeper is doing a better job, or would do at Test level, and you have not once even tried to explain exactly what it is about Ludeman or any other keeper that puts him in front of Haddin, other than dropped catches, which, once again, you have no evidence of.

Now, as for the TD situation, his statistics were historical, showing that over their First Class careers Ahmed has performed better than Lyon. My argument is that Lyon is better than Ahmed right now, which mean that the relevance of what Ahmed did 10 years ago isn't that strong. Ahmed's figures for this Shield are distorted somewhat by his 6-for against WA, which he hasn't backed up at all, whilst leaking runs (economy rate this Shield season of 1.5 or so worse than Lyon). Lyon's focus this season has been to stop bowling bad balls, to learn to tie and end up, so that we can bowl him from one and and attack at the other. Ahmed is the opposite kind of bowler, and isn't yet good enough to be an attacking spinner. He's not bowling well right now, save for that one innings.

As you'll note, whilst I disagreed with the statistics TD provided, I've engaged in actual discussion by talking about what it is about Lyon and Ahmed that I like/don't like, and why I prefer Lyon. TD can then respond with his view, whatever that is.

Your line about discussion and not private ideas is classic hypocrisy, given you won't listen to any argument in favour of Haddin. So instead of having a go at me for not 'discussing' things, why don't you actually engage in the debate for once? Otherwise, stop altogether, so that the rest of us can actually talk about cricket.

If Cuzzy bro(Wade) keeps making runs then he should get back in.

Haddin is a great bat but as you say-a backstop.

POMS TO WIN IN SERIES WHITEWASH

Putting on my soothsayer hat I predict

1 Watson to break down for yet the Nth time and as result, placing test career in extreme doubt.

2 Mitch Johnson to bowl so many "unplayable balls" by virtue that he will be all over the place in yet another "Insipid" waste of the new ball.

3 Nathan "I don't spin the ball at all" to be "Belted" out of the attack and therefore playing his last test for Australia, Fawad Ahmed "Come on down!

4 Iron Gloves Haddin to have a stinker with bat and gloves therefore leaving test career in jeopardy again.

5 Clarke to captain poorly and have even more critics than before.

6 Rhino Harris to bowl himself into stress fracture territory.

That will suffice for the moment!

think I refered to him as haddin,but your probably right again

you wrote "when your posts are statesments of opinion,yep your right again

when you said prove hes dropped catches.i told you google haddin dropped catches

you said figures are proof.then stated but lyon is better now.which I agree with btw

I have debated it .haddin is a backstop,ludeman is regarded as the best keeper in Australia

have a good day,thanks for the discussion

The fact that Lyon is still getting a game is an indictment on Australia's spin bowling stocks

What have we tried since Warne 10-15 others Farrrrrrr out!

We now continue with (or not turn to) a bloke who has not ONCE won a game for Australia, even on crumbling day 5 pitches!

FACE IT NATHAN LYON IS NOT A MATCH WINNER!!

FAWAD AHMED POTENTIALLY IS and for all facts and stats created.

Time to be bold!

Oh, Sorry Mr. Inverarity boldness was never your suite!

couldn't help but say a similar thing

as soon as somebody like agar gets 3 wickets and has an innings ,they will be all over him

same with the leggie

trouble is after 4 tests and a couple of failures,the selectors panic and go to the next in line

krejia,doherty,beer,

I hope the pie thrower Johnston goes well,but in the memory is those 3 tests in England when the batsmen laughed at him and took runs at will

siddle is not only the spine of the bowling,hes the only one that hasn't broke down for a while,

fingers crossed

was going to do a complete list of spinners since warne ,but ran out of time

Edited November 19, 201311 yr by jazza

My comment was based on the present - right now Lyon's bowling better than Ahmed. So I'm not particularly phased by Ahmed's history.

Ahmed had that 6-for a few matches back, and has since been impotent. Lyon's been consistent; he's never been a big turner, but unlike Ahmed he's learnt to get rid of the bad balls and be consistent through matches. His economy rate in the Shield is 1.3 runs better than Ahmed's.

Australian cricket continually throws out good-to-average performers in search of the next big thing. Ahmed is a leg spinner, so people see him as the next big thing. He is capable of taking a bag of wickets, yes, but he's just as likely to be 0/100 in his debut innings. Think Bryce McGain and Jason Krejza - capable of taking wickets, incapable of stemming the flow of runs. We will not win this Ashes series if their batsmen are able to get off the hook, and that's what Ahmed will do, without being sufficiently better than Lyon to warrant his selection.

We need to put some faith in Lyon, who bowls well on Australian pitches with extra bounce. If Ahmed can improve his economy rate in the current Shield season, getting rid of the bad balls, he'll be a more selectable proposition.

This thread was so much more interesting/pleasant before you appeared in it.

Match figures of 4/99 off 33.5 overs in his last Shield match on a wicket in Hobart that traditionally does nothing for spinners is a far cry form impotent. My view on Fawad's Shield season so far is he's had one bad game and two decent games. I can see why some people would like to stick with Lyon, I myself will say that he's a safer option, but he's never going to win us a match on a wearing Day 5 pitch, Fawad has the potential to. He may go for more runs, but if that creates more wickets, more often then I'd take it every day of the week. I'd never play him in the shorter formats, but the long formats, yes every day.

Lyon's Test average, which is far more relevant, is 33 (as opposed to his F/C average of 38). Lyon's Test economy rate and strike-rate are also both better than his F/C figures.

True, but as Fawad's never played a test you can only really compare them in the format that both have played.

Match figures of 4/99 off 33.5 overs in his last Shield match on a wicket in Hobart that traditionally does nothing for spinners is a far cry form impotent. My view on Fawad's Shield season so far is he's had one bad game and two decent games. I can see why some people would like to stick with Lyon, I myself will say that he's a safer option, but he's never going to win us a match on a wearing Day 5 pitch, Fawad has the potential to. He may go for more runs, but if that creates more wickets, more often then I'd take it every day of the week. I'd never play him in the shorter formats, but the long formats, yes every day.

True, but as Fawad's never played a test you can only really compare them in the format that both have played.

I disagree entirely - I'd play Ahmed in the shorter formats but not the longer ones. We're not going to ever beat England, India or South Africa in Tests when our spinner leaks runs. It releases the pressure we can build with our fast bowlers, which, no matter which spinner we pick, is our strength right now.

As for Ahmed, his wickets in the Tasmania game were all number 8 or worse, so again I'm not that phased by him. I don't think he's had any terribly bad games, but he hasn't had any good games either, and for a spinner whose appeal is supposed to be his wicket-taking ability, he's not there yet.

TD

during the debacle in india ,although not a lyon fan,i thought he was one of the few players to win a spot for the ashes

was completely astonished when the selectors picked an unknown 19yo, with no form and even selected him to bat at 11

lyons confidence must have taken a battering.

I think the revolving door for spinners is back in vogue and as soon as .agar lyon.fawad.do anything of note ,the calls for replacing the incumbent will come thick and fast

same as cowan,thought he and rogers could take overs and time out of the opposition and let ,Clarke and smith do what 5/6 are meant to do.poor ed watched with absolute horror as hughes had bowlers raffling the chance to take his wicket in india.must have been devastating for ed to see him on the plane and get a game in England also.

it seems they are primed to stick with watto and daveyboy.im hoping its all good and not hit and giggle.because if that's the case wer'e buggered again

Edited November 20, 201311 yr by jazza

TD

during the debacle in india ,although not a lyon fan,i thought he was one of the few players to win a spot for the ashes

was completely astonished when the selectors picked an unknown 19yo, with no form and even selected him to bat at 11

lyons confidence must have taken a battering.

I think the revolving door for spinners is back in vogue and as soon as .agar lyon.fawad.do anything of note ,the calls for replacing the incumbent will come thick and fast

same as cowan,thought he and rogers could take overs and time out of the opposition and let ,Clarke and smith do what 5/6 are meant to do.poor ed watched with absolute horror as hughes had bowlers raffling the chance to take his wicket in india.must have been devastating for ed to see him on the plane and get a game in England also.

it seems they are primed to stick with watto and daveyboy.im hoping its all good and not hit and giggle.because if that's the case wer'e buggered again

We've tried every batsman in NSW at least 3 times.

Cowan is not a terrible bat and will probably get a chance when Watto pulls his hammy after three overs of puss.

I really don't care who we play but I want to see wins.

Our bowlers are fragile barring Siddle.

I would pick Agar due the extra bounce in Aussie pitches-he could be a very handy player like Vettori of NZ -and for years.

Warner is my prediction to become the premier bat in the land-if not the world.

if we try Hughes again I will spew.

Wade should get a go but wont.

There is no future in playing the Pakistani guy-but it sells a few papers.(not talking about Khawaja)

Edited November 20, 201311 yr by Biffen

True, but as Fawad's never played a test you can only really compare them in the format that both have played.

More relevant to compare recent form, really. Unfortunately no Cricinfo Statsguru for FC games!

I disagree entirely - I'd play Ahmed in the shorter formats but not the longer ones. We're not going to ever beat England, India or South Africa in Tests when our spinner leaks runs. It releases the pressure we can build with our fast bowlers, which, no matter which spinner we pick, is our strength right now.

As for Ahmed, his wickets in the Tasmania game were all number 8 or worse, so again I'm not that phased by him. I don't think he's had any terribly bad games, but he hasn't had any good games either, and for a spinner whose appeal is supposed to be his wicket-taking ability, he's not there yet.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the forms of the game to play them in. Although I must say I think traditionally the selectors have thought more along my line of thinking. To win a test match you have to take 20 wickets, you can win a ODI or T20 only taking 3 or 4. It's bowlers like Stuart MacGill played so many tests but barely any ODI's (great strike rate/average but poor economy) and others spinners like Doherty play so many ODI's/T20's but barely any tests (great economy but poor strike rate/average).

Lyon will play for now but he's not the answer long term and I think Fawad's closer to the answer then Lyon is. There's a reason all the top Australian sides over the years have had leggies instead of off spinners, it's what our conditions favour. With the exception of Trumble of course.

More relevant to compare recent form, really. Unfortunately no Cricinfo Statsguru for FC games!

Actually they do, you just have to go into them and do the stats manually yourself.

I can tell you in the three Shield games each have played this summer Lyon's stats are.

10 wickets for 351 runs @ 35.10 off 142.1 overs. Economy rate of 2.47 with a strike rate of 85.3, so he's taken 14 and a half overs to take each wicket.

Fawad Ahmed:

11 wickets for 333 runs @ 30.27 off 90 overs. Economy of 3.70 with a strike rate of 49.09, so just over 8 overs a wicket which is a very good strike rate.

Edit: Spelling

Edited November 20, 201311 yr by Tall Defence

any score predictions @ lunch

I'll go 2 for 85

close but no cigar

Score preciction @ Tea = 4 for 158

Score prediction @ Stumps 8 for 280

Edited November 21, 201311 yr by DeeVoted

any score predictions @ lunch

I'll go 2 for 85

think you've just won 2 tickets to the furniture designers presentation night

congrats

think you've just won 2 tickets to the furniture designers presentation night

congrats

I'll carry on Tony.

I'll carry on Tony.

ok

next prediction,and I hope its in aussies favour

ooops Clarke gone

and I just got HD telly

it looks great but not when were losing wickets

Edited November 21, 201311 yr by jazza

Oh dear.

Oh dear.

Not good. Our flaky top order. I was predicting a minor fightback, then the slump between tea and stumps.

See my post above I amended it between. Tea to stumps

Not good. Our flaky top order. I was predicting a minor fightback, then the slump between tea and stumps.

See my post above I amended it between. Tea to stumps

6/240

300 would be a bonus ,considering the top order

Thank God we have an Ashes record holding keeper who can bat.

Thank God we have an Ashes record holding keeper who can bat.

thank god we have tailenders who can score runs also

just imagine if we had a top order that could bat

one innings doesn't make a summer

Terrific comeback but being 6 - 132 at one stage was another huge disappointment. The lack of century making ability from our top 6 (apart from Pup) is a real concern. Warner had a real chance today to make a big score before his dismissal (which looked soft) Watson and Smith both played at deliveries that they could have left (after both got starts) The less said about the dismissals of Rogers, Clarke and Bailey the better.

However, despite all that, Haddin and Johnson did a fine job getting the team out of the mire and you might have even taken 8/273 at the start of the day (all things considered) Haddin's experience came to the fore just when we needed it.

We're going to have to bowl well tomorrow all the same. Johnson might be having one of his big games - let's hope so because we're gonna need it! We could do with a bit of cloud cover tomorrow to help our bowlers.

thank god we have tailenders who can score runs also

just imagine if we had a top order that could bat

one innings doesn't make a summer

Agree and given how flimsy our top six has been isnt important that you can extend your batting with a Ashes record keeper that can make valuable runs when the going is tough.

He has done this a number of times in the past and is proven tough campaigner in these situations. He had another bold innings in tough times in the last Ashes series.

One innings does not make a summer but its a sure good way to start and amply validates why the Australia selectors go for an in form keeper who can bat is a tough competitor and provides experience and leadership (yes that word).

Terrific comeback but being 6 - 132 at one stage was another huge disappointment. The lack of century making ability from our top 6 (apart from Pup) is a real concern. Warner had a real chance today to make a big score before his dismissal (which looked soft) Watson and Smith both played at deliveries that they could have left (after both got starts) The less said about the dismissals of Rogers, Clarke and Bailey the better.

However, despite all that, Haddin and Johnson did a fine job getting the team out of the mire and you might have even taken 8/273 at the start of the day (all things considered) Haddin's experience came to the fore just when we needed it.

We're going to have to bowl well tomorrow all the same. Johnson might be having one of his big games - let's hope so because we're gonna need it! We could do with a bit of cloud cover tomorrow to help our bowlers.

A fair summary indeed.

My word a bit of cloud cover after we pass 300 would be good. We need all the help we can get. Siddle and Harris are proven performers. We need Johnson to fire.....even for just a short withering burst.

Another positive is that Swann had 0-80 off 23 overs......Good.

This guy was damaging on the last Ashes tour out here. If he gets going then its going to be hard for us. I trust the curators dont produce a dust bowl at any time this summer.

Full marks to Stuart Broad. Bowled beautifully and had his line right. Could be quite a handful if also gets his batting right. And we know he doesnt walk.

Edited November 21, 201311 yr by Rhino Richards

Full marks to Stuart Broad.

Wash your mouth out, RR. So many detestable characters in this English lineup, but he's the worst.

Tremendous knock by Midge down the order, pretty much made a game of it once more. Hopefully he can back it up with the ball.

Still have little confidence in this batting lineup as a whole. Sloggers do not a test team make. I wouldn't mind seeing Hughes recalled.

Wash your mouth out, RR. So many detestable characters in this English lineup, but he's the worst.

The angst against Stuart Broad is a media beat up.

He nicked a ball and didn't walk. So what? It was very Australian thing to do. Broad bowled a perfect length yesterday and was justly rewarded. His deliveries to get Rogers and Clarke were first class. I hope the Australian bowlers do likewise.

Still have little confidence in this batting lineup as a whole. Sloggers do not a test team make. I wouldn't mind seeing Hughes recalled.

Neither do shufflers and pokers with exposed flawed techniques. I would prefer players like Doolan and others to Hughes for some time yet.

However with Rogers 36, Watson 32 and Bailey 31 in the batting line up, there positions will be in jeopardy quickly if they don't make runs and we are trailing in the Ashes campaign.

thought watto was another golden boy,cant be dropped

cowans technique is steady enough to help with the brittle battling line up

hughes rabbit in the headlights game was exposed in india,good shield player not test

always remember an ex queenslander saying because of the heat up there ,the gabba wicket can sometimes have the moisture drawn to the top of the pitch on the 2nd day,rather than the first,

stuat broad did nothing wrong but stand his ground=see ian chappell.1973