Anyone for cricket?

[Sir Why You Little 36,588]

Watson to the HALL OF MIRRORS....

For a good hard look at yourself......BAH!!! B)

[titan_uranus 24,562]

Watson's now been involved in 7 run outs. The ones I can remember were all his fault too. It's really unbelievable that he can continue to run like he does, head down, not looking at his partner, ball watching, whatever it is, he isn't good at it.

Hughes got a good ball but didn't score freely at all.

Just to carry on with the Haddin vs. Prior debate.

These are the scores they've come in on this series, and what they've done in them.

1st test

Prior 5-197 (first ball duck)

Haddin 5-143 (uncharacteristic 136 from 287)

2nd test

Haddin 5-156 (56 from 95), 5-261 (12 from 21)

Prior 5-568 (27 not out from 21)

3rd test

Haddin 5-69 (53 from 80), 5-252 (7 from 10)

Prior 5-98 (12 from 42), 6-94 (10 from 9)

4th test

Haddin 5-66 (5 from 16), 5-134 (55 not out from 93)

Prior 5-286 (85 from 119)

5th test (dead rubber)

Haddin 4-143 (6 from 13)

Prior 6-380 (118 from 130)

I actually kind of find it laughable that you could say Prior has had a better series - all things considered.

The two times Prior has registered 50, his team has been 188 ahead and 100 ahead - both times in the first innings, both times facing lacklustre (at best) bowling.

Haddin's 4 times past 50 have each come when he has come in at 5 for less than 160 against pretty hostile bowling.

But Haddin throws his wicket away with careless shots far too often. His 5 in Melbourne, his 6 in Sydney were both thrown away.

Sure, batting's been a lot easier for Prior, but when he's had the chance he's made the runs.

Also, his glovework has been better. Haddin's dropped at least two catches and he let one go between him and Watson. I can't think of any dropped catches from Prior.

Edited January 6, 2011 by titan_uranus

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I actually kind of find it laughable that you could say Prior has had a better series - all things considered.

Prior (18) has taken nearly three times as many catches as Haddin (7) has taken this series.

We are talking about wicketkeepers here. Prior's performance has been impressive.

[jayceebee31 697]

Prior (18) has taken nearly three times as many catches as Haddin (7) has taken this series.

We are talking about wicketkeepers here. Prior's performance has been impressive.

Yep and he plays for Victoria as a batsman only in our 20/20 comp from next week.

[45HG 1,539]

But Haddin throws his wicket away with careless shots far too often. His 5 in Melbourne, his 6 in Sydney were both thrown away.

Sure, batting's been a lot easier for Prior, but when he's had the chance he's made the runs.

Also, his glovework has been better. Haddin's dropped at least two catches and he let one go between him and Watson. I can't think of any dropped catches from Prior.

I literally cannot see a way that you can look at those numbers and claim that Prior's had a better series with the bat.

It's just not true that when he's had the chance he's made the runs. He's come in at 197, 98 and 94 for scores of 0, 12 and 10. Haddin coming in at similar scores (143, 156, 69, 66, 134 and 143) has made 136, 56, 53, 5, 55* and 6. The fact he's had to come in at those types of scores illustrates the extra pressure he has been under. Perhaps a he's got out a couple of times when he shouldn't have, but it'd be odd to ignore that with Prior.

As for the keeping I've thought they were pretty even - I can't recall the drops but I won't doubt you. It'd be easier to keep to Bresnan, Anderson, Swann, Finn, Tremlett and Broad as opposed to Johnson, Hilfy, Beer and co.

Prior (18) has taken nearly three times as many catches as Haddin (7) has taken this series.

We are talking about wicketkeepers here. Prior's performance has been impressive.

In the modern game I think a keeper's batting ability is more important than his 'keeping skills.

That said, obviously they're still important.

Haddin has 8 catchs and a stumping while Prior now has 19 catches.

This series, Australia have taken 56 wickers. England have taken 83. That's a lot less opportunity. You'd be very hard pressed to say that the English bowlers haven't provided a much greater amount of edges than the Aussies bowlers.

Of the 56 we've taken, 22 have been lbw or bowled (40%). Of their 83, only 21 have been lbw, bowled or runout (25%). I mean, in one innings in Melbourne Prior was able to get 6 catches!

[H_T 3,032]

Make that 20 catches.

Tend to agree with 45 given the comparitive data and argument presented re: Haddin/Prior. I was of the same opinion of the Watson/Strauss talking point...up until that run out. Or should I reflect on the run outs in the series.

Watson has looked wonderful at times and so sure in striking the ball. Nothing looks better than his off drives for four. Technically and yet powerfully so sound. He just....let's himself down - with what I call blonde moments (hope none of you are blonde ) - brain fades which let himself and his team down. IMO Hughes was just as much to blame having not run the first hard as well as his hesitation.

That runout today was school boy stuff.

[45HG 1,539]

That runout today was school boy stuff.

Sure was.

Lazy running by both of them - was easily two there.

This spell of bowling is perfectly summing up what I was talking about with Prior getting more opportunities!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

....

I cant think of a catch dropped by Prior. I can recall a few from Haddin.

IMO Prior has shaded him as the total package. But its a good contest.

And HT, Prior now has 21 catches.

[45HG 1,539]

I cant think of a catch dropped by Prior. I can recall a few from Haddin.

IMO Prior has shaded him as the total package. But its a good contest.

And HT, Prior now has 21 catches.

OK.

I've trawled through the cricinfo commentary from all 5 tests (yay for holidays) and have discovered this.

Haddin has dropped two (one in Brisbane off Siddle and one in Adelaide in the first innings), he also had the one go between him and Watson... not sure if this is regarded as a drop though.

Prior has dropped one (second innings at Adelaide, Hussey).

I reckon you've made up your mind and there'll be no budging you, regardless of arguments.

Do you give credit to Prior for his 3 catches today? Surely his catches alone don't push him ahead of Haddin's performances this summer (who now is looking pretty good, fighting it out on 27).

I find it odd that two people who lament how rubbish our bowling is, while praising England's bowlers, also then give credit to their 'keeper for being the beneficiary of top bowling whilst ignoring Haddin's efforts. Oh well.

[Sir Why You Little 36,588]

OK.

I've trawled through the cricinfo commentary from all 5 tests (yay for holidays) and have discovered this.

Haddin has dropped two (one in Brisbane off Siddle and one in Adelaide in the first innings), he also had the one go between him and Watson... not sure if this is regarded as a drop though.

Prior has dropped one (second innings at Adelaide, Hussey).

I reckon you've made up your mind and there'll be no budging you, regardless of arguments.

Do you give credit to Prior for his 3 catches today? Surely his catches alone don't push him ahead of Haddin's performances this summer (who now is looking pretty good, fighting it out on 27).

I find it odd that two people who lament how rubbish our bowling is, while praising England's bowlers, also then give credit to their 'keeper for being the beneficiary of top bowling whilst ignoring Haddin's efforts. Oh well.

Prior just got another one!!!

Fine keeper, glad i drafted him!!! B)

[45HG 1,539]

Prior just got another one!!!

Fine keeper, glad i drafted him!!! B)

Ha. It certainly was his wicket.

[Sir Why You Little 36,588]

Ha. It certainly was his wicket.

I reckon Haddin has done a fine job this series under the circumstances, but Prior has been Brilliant.

[Rogue 585]

There's not much in the Haddin and Prior debate IMO.

Strauss gets the edge because he deosn't keep running out his batting partners, but Watson's thereabouts.

The only clear winner for Aus is Hussey and with just the one it's no surprise we're getting trounced.

I think Roebuck (or Baum) made a similar point in a recent article.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Do you give credit to Prior for his 3 catches today? Surely his catches alone don't push him ahead of Haddin's performances this summer (who now is looking pretty good, fighting it out on 27).

I find it odd that two people who lament how rubbish our bowling is, while praising England's bowlers, also then give credit to their 'keeper for being the beneficiary of top bowling whilst ignoring Haddin's efforts. Oh well.

Arguably the greatest English keeper of all, Alan Knott took 24 catches in six tests to set a record for a keeper in Australia. Prior has 23 catches from 5 Tests. Its a fair comparison in performance.

As WYL has said Haddin has had a good series but Prior has been brilliant. (I cant believe I have quoted WYL at all.

And for good measure today, while the bowling has been good, Haddin in his brief stay was cavalier at times and struggles against the spinners.

[Sir Why You Little 36,588]

As WYL has said Haddin has had a good series but Prior has been brilliant. (I cant believe I have quoted WYL at all.

This needs to be Pinned!!! I am speechless (almost) right now...Time for a cold Beer B) Thanks RR

[45HG 1,539]

As WYL has said Haddin has had a good series but Prior has been brilliant. (I cant believe I have quoted WYL at all.

I think I've provided enough evidence to suggest otherwise, but that's just me.

I don't think Haddin should lose out because his bowlers aren't good enough to get edges whilst Prior benefits from top class bowling for 4 and a half tests.

You've pretty much just said he's taken more catches so he's been better. If that's all you'll say we should probably just leave it.

[Axis of Bob 11,151]

Haddin has had a better series than Prior. Prior has come in on flat tracks and made cheap runs in the last two tests, but has been ordinary until then. Haddin has been one of Australia's few winners, while Prior has played some pretty easy innings.

Also, the idea that the number of catches constitutes a measure for a keeper's performance with the gloves complete crap. I don't think that Haddin is a great gloveman (neither is Prior, really), but the catching numbers are complete crap and mean nothing. Over the course of the series, Haddin has been presented with 9 chances while Prior has been presented with 24.

Statistics, in themselves, mean nothing. It's the context that gives them meaning.

[WonnaJurah 5]

i cant believe Bevan only made 12th man for 50 overs team of all time, thought he would be a monty for starting line up

[45HG 1,539]

Statistics, in themselves, mean nothing. It's the context that gives them meaning.

That's why I included when he has come in in his innings' and the way the two teams have taken their wickets.

Meanwhile in S.A., India are ruining a perfectly good test.

[Sir Why You Little 36,588]

That's why I included when he has come in in his innings' and the way the two teams have taken their wickets.

Meanwhile in S.A., India are ruining a perfectly good test.

I agree with the "context" comment, but Prior can only do what he is given, Wicketkeepers are always re-active. And what he has done thus far this summer has been close to flawless (what i have seen) don't forget the Poms keep swinging the ball, we can't seem to do it. No we just give the Poms a victorian coach, who could swing the ball!!!) Grrr

Prior is up there with A.P.E. Knott for an english wicketkeepers. Haddin is very good, but he has a lot of improvement-as do the bowlers that hurl the ball to him.

[45HG 1,539]

A.B. de Villiers is actually Jonty Rhodes mark 2.

Maybe not!

[Rogue 585]

i cant believe Bevan only made 12th man for 50 overs team of all time, thought he would be a monty for starting line up

I have no idea what 'all time' team you're talking about ;o

Prior is up there with A.P.E. Knott for an english wicketkeepers. Haddin is very good, but he has a lot of improvement-as do the bowlers that hurl the ball to him.

It wasn't so long ago that people were rubbishing Prior for his keeping. Knott, really?

[Axis of Bob 11,151]

Yeah, Prior's stats in this series with the gloves show the worthlessness of catching stats for keepers. I reckon if I took the gloves for England then I'd have at least double the catches of Haddin for the series. Does that make me a better keeper, or even having a better series with the gloves?

The last test series that Kamran Akmal played was against England last year in England. He had 17 catches from 3 games while Matt Prior had 12 catches and a stumping from 4 games. Who would you say had the better series as a keeper? Then note that the reason Kamran only played 3 tests was because he was dropped in the other test for ..... you guessed it ..... poor keeping. (Cricinfo article)

Keeping stats are useless.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Axis of Bob

[Nasher 33,607]

+1 for the "measuring a keeper's performance entirely on catches is crazy" team. Next we'll be measuring Jack Watts' performance this year solely by the number of marks he has taken.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You've pretty much just said he's taken more catches so he's been better. If that's all you'll say we should probably just leave it.

IMO Prior has shaded him as the total package. But its a good contest.

Take it as you want 45...

It wasn't so long ago that people were rubbishing Prior for his keeping. Knott, really?

Prior has worked on and improved his keeping immensely since those early days.

The same issue of rubbishing could be levied at Alistair Cook. What a series.

I only raised Alan Knott's performance in 1970-71 to try and put some context on Prior's performance.

WYL is quite misguided actually comparing Prior in the same league as Knott for wicketkeeping.