deelusions from afar

I'm hoping this too. But it would have to be unlikely

Pittonet has a decent record against Gawn - but when we have Jackson as well it's a tough ask. Kinda surprised they don't pay De Konig. Haven't seen much of them but I remember him torching Sydney earlier this year with his contested marking. Is it a matter of with McKay and Curnow they can't really afford to rest immobile rucks forward? If that's the case, if Jackson leaves is De Konig a player we should be sounding out? Or did I just see his greatest game?

Miss harmes as well... but who goes out for him. Doesn't it make it harder now with Gus having midfield minutes?

Don't know if I agree. I think the cats (this year), pies and swans are all far more aggressive (and skilful) in how they move the ball than we are (this year or last year). Other than when winning a centre clearance or on turnover, we move the ball slowly and predictably - long to Gawn from the kickout to the non-Langdon side and get it as far up the field as we can until we bomb it to the pocket or it goes out of bounds. it is based around our contested mids winning more contests than they lose. The other teams are prepared to switch more and go up the fat side or even the corridor - I don't think we ever do this unless on turnover? The difference for us this year (to me) seems to be our ability to hold other teams' foot skills at bay for a full game. If they're prepared to take us on and not just go down the line, our pressure doesn't seem to be able to be high enough to stop this for 4 quarters.

I don't underrate Grundy - I just think ruckman are not as critical as you. Gawn and Grundy have been the best ruckmen in the comp over the last 5-10 years. How many premierships between them? And I actually think most of Gawn's value is through his contested marking ability in defence and around the ground rather than his tap work which while it is elite doesn't swing games. In an ideal world you could have Grundy and Gawn in the same team - but in that world surely you'd have some decent key forwards and more midfielders with great kicking skills already in the team. Nothing against Grundy but think the picks and cap space could be better spent elsewhere. I also think Freo are crazy to sell the farm for Jackson when they also need key forwards.

In theory it works. But Grundy's barely got on the park this year and hasn't been at his best for a number of years. He's 28 now. How do we know he can get back there and play at the level consistently? What if we do all the things you propose but rather than get Grundy, get the best ruckman not getting regular senior footy (eg Lloyd Meek - I'm sure there would be others) and then have an extra pick (and salary) to go key forward shopping or at least to the draft. If just going to the draft means we have cap space then see if we can re-negotiate current contracts so we have more space for a warchest the following year. Grundy just doesn't add up to me

I would have thought the ruck situation is less of an issue if we get someone like Meek from Freo as part of the Jackson trade (if it were to go ahead). He would be behind Jackson and Darcy - arguably the two best rucks under 25 in the game. Sure if we can get Grundy cheaply (in salary and trade wise) but otherwise I'm not convinced he's the answer. Shouldn't we be throwing the kitchen sink at a gun key forward instead?

The thing for me is that surely this is not a difficult fix. We have seen enough examples - surely these scenarios can be practiced at training where rather than kicking long they go for a shorter central option. I haven't been to training in a while so have no idea if its a focus.

It absolutely was. In fact it was my intention from the beginning, but in my haste to get my thoughts to the page (screen) the most critical aspect of the post was lost (but not forgotten). Does that suffice? 😀

I started the thread but have no idea how to do this - maybe its for the moderators?

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere but the bits of threads that I've been reading seems to show that many people don't get this. I was there on Friday night and watched in frustration in the second quarter (and really the whole game) as we kicked repeatedly to a magical spot in the forward pocket on the members side, close to the boundary. It rarely lead to marks, or crumbs to goals and was usually swept away by Collingwood's defence or got knocked out of bounds. The old dees supporter behind me kept saying "oh what a terrible kick" every time it went there as if it wasn't what the player intended to do. But this is our game plan! We have the best contested players in the game and a defence that can outsmart and outmark their opponents (if it doesn't come in too quick). Unless we are breaking away from centre clearance or whizzing it forward from a turnover, we go forward and kick there as it allows us (playing the percentages) to use our advantages. If we kick to the top of the goal square there is less likely to be a stoppage if we don't mark and good teams with fast ball movement will have both sides available (and the centre corridor) to quickly move the ball up the field with little pressure which puts enormous pressure on our defence. But obviously there's a trade off: When we do mark, they are tough shots. Equally when we do crumb it requires brilliance - either in handball chains or snaps like you saw from Petracca in the grand final. Clearly it works - particularly if with our (once) superior fitness, we can play our game far longer than the opposition. But after Friday night, I'm wondering: (a) are the best opposition teams we've faced - Collingwood / Geelong, Swans, even the dogs a few weeks back - able to get us because of their aggressive ball movement and determination not to get caught in our trap of playing on the side we want them to. I.e. Would these teams have troubled our team last year as they have practiced a strategy designed to beat ours? (b) would we play differently if we had key forwards we could be more confident in - say Naughton or Curnow? Part of me thinks not because we still do this when Gawn is down there and he looks as dangerous as anyone in a contested mark situation. (c) Is this really just about the pressure from our forwards / midfielders in closing down the outlets. I.e. do they just need to go a bit harder for a bit longer and then we win the game? (d) If we aren't able to defeat any of these teams in the finals, should we be tweaking this style over summer (not unlike Geelong last summer). As I've mentioned on here previously, although I understand the strategy, I also wish we took a few more risks. A player kicking to that pocket when they are kicking over the mark from 70m out is very predictable. Would love to see some handballs off to a runner who has the odd ping from 55m. Even at an estimated strike rate of 1/3 that is better than what kicking to that pocket every time is getting us. Thoughts?

I think this is great - if we play Collingwood in finals he will take responsibility for De Goey (unless Harmes does) and will get it done. Just like he did with Bont in the granny last year.

If Jackson goes we offer North what we get for him in picks and offer Larkey the same contract we would offer Jackson. Definitely a long shot but if Larkey stays he has to play through 3-5 years of rebuilding before they're at our level. Come to us and he'll play finals every year (we hope). Surely more chance of getting him than Noughton / King bros etc

Not the only great highlight that includes a scrubber kick from O Mac. Pretty sure he did the same in that game we beat Hawthorn in 2016 - think it was part of the play which Billy Stretch put us in front in the last quarter.

My initial reaction was no way... but it got me thinking. Last year we had two tall forwards but this only really clicked late in the season. If you subscribe to the loading theories, perhaps we can't afford to have the two tall forwards unless everyone is 100% fresh? Is that why it doesn't work so well during the season? If that is the case, then you may be right. Although my gut feel is that Goody is not happy with Weid's output and so has Melksham taking the other "tall" position. Once BBB is ready Weid will be out.

Hopefully not. For mine Jack and Lever are great leaders and players but do not inspire when they speak. It's just cliches and platitudes! Whenever Max finishes up, I'd rather have Petracca or Brayshaw as the captain. Viney and Lever can still play an important role as vice or in the leadership group.

Yeah I agree he's not going to be the next Schwarz. But if he continues at the rate of improvement he is going at since debuting then he could end up as a genuine superstar of the comp. I mentioned Goodes and Kouta because they could play anywhere and troubled teams due to their unique assets - too tall, agile, strong - for anyone to go with them. But I agree that I think he's unlikely to be able to do this solely as a ruckman. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but I think he's likely to be a better player than White or Martin - White might have him covered at Centre bounces but I think Jackson would have him covered once the ball hits the ground and with his ability to work in traffic. And while Stefan Martin has been an incredible player with unique abilities (strength and speed for a big man) I don't think he has the natural ability / game sense that Jackson has - certainly didn't at the age Jackson is now! But my main point was, all of this is hypothetical. It's still so much for Freo to pay when you don't know if he will reach those heights.

I'm hoping Dogga stays as he is likely to be a very special player. He's showing all the signs - particularly given his age - but he's not there yet. He could be anything - the next Schwarz pre knee, Kouta, Goodes or something unlike anyone else that has played - or he may end up as a talented tall utility that can play anywhere but never masters a position. It makes me think if I were a Freo supporter and we were giving up this year and next year's first round picks and Meek (as an example) and potentially losing some other players who think Jackson will take their spot or eat up too much of their salary cap... is this deal worth it? Isn't this selling the farm? Are they really just Jackson away from a premiership or do they need a few more young talented players coming through? I'm not doubting his value particularly when you see what the biggest trades have netted in recent years... but I feel like if it goes ahead, it could blow up in Freo and Luke's face. There will be a lot of pressure on the kid to perform if this is what they have to give up.

I think this is a tough thing to balance... if some of Kozzie's shots on goal didn't go through yesterday would we be saying the same thing? I think it is important to have players who want to take the responsibility and kick the goal (even if they miss sometimes). But if they continue to miss (and are burning team mates in the process) then they lose their licence to take their shots. I think Fritsch has enough runs on the board at the moment.

I might be out on my own here but this is how Fritsch plays. I remember thinking often last year that he would often run around an opponent to get a clearer kick for goal that if he got caught it would look pretty bad - but he never really did. I suspect the opposition have woken up to his movements. While a number of these in recent weeks have looked awful, I fear that trying to take this out of his game might also curb his natural flare.

Thought Laurie would've been a chance after last week's game - maybe he's out due to covid protocols too?

That was my recollection too. I remember being pretty upset as he was about to explode as a player. I think the club used the pick we received and trade to Geelong to get Moloney as a ready made replacement? (While Geelong used the pick with another to get Brad Ottens and win a premiership!)

I think the idea that you have to have done X as a player to be able to teach players to do X is outdated. Surely it's more about their knowledge, analysis, ability to problem solve and communicate? I don't know if Stafford is a good forward coach or not but I have heard players talk about how his approach has been really helpful with their goal kicking.

Can he take a contested grab? I think that's almost more valuable a skill than any other as it means they can be a reliable kick in target, a threat forward and can float back and take marks in defence if required.

Though I think Clarkson would be a good fit in turning around their culture, the word is he doesn't want to have to rebuild. So this surely means that Yze and Williams would be in the running if they decide to go for it.