Demon Dynasty

I like Rpfc's idea re handing over the baton to the younger brigade and allowing them to take us forward into a new year. Baby Demons!!? And Belze, your first post here (top of this page) in response to Rpfc re schoolboy attitude (not all players but cultural/club wise until now) is spot on mate. Also i want to make a few points. I believe this club is weighed down as a result of past "acceptance of mediocrity" culture (apologies to Northey group and the few years thereafter under Balme). It will continue to carry this weight until or unless we somehow find a way to cut it out. I guess that's what we're discussing here. 1. By allowing this culture to sustain itself over so many decades now, we have created a rod for our back in 2 ways (some would say countless ways lol). I'm excluding the $ side here as that's another effect altogether. A: The tangible. Our performances in off/down years (which unfortunately are numerous) are SO bad, and we break so many "worst" results and negative records versus other teams, that for us to beat our Vic rivals away from home (where there's a tangible history) and/or interstate clubs (away from home where there's a tangible history other than GCS for now) it takes a herculeon type of effort. One that's acheivable if everything's in place player/coach/attitude/effort wise. But, if we have a few pieces/players/weaknesses missing.... What i'm alluding to is that most other teams see us (because of our lowly history against them/others) as easy beats away from home. Hence no matter how well we are playing during the game (unless we blitz them out of the blocks and leading by 60 at half time say)....opponents always feel they're in with a chance and they play as if they can win at any stage. Like they have our measure...arrogance, belief. Whatever you want to call it, IMO our effort required to win and overcome "their belief" that if they put the hard yards/pressure us enough etc and we'll roll over/ our history proves it etc, is fairly massive now in a relative sense. If we have the team/coach/practices/attitude in place we can overcome their belief ....with our belief and play. But at this point we don't....obviously. IMHO, we need a great team...not just a good team, to overcome even just this aspect of our club going forward. let alone to win a premiership. To win a premiership we will need an AWESOME team full of 2 - 3 super stars and a good mix of big time/big game players. B: To build a great team, a club needs to attract the best of the best players (obviously) and or recruits and coach. We've done so recently through tanking out (recruiting/rookie wise). But, aside from ending up on our bum again for a few years running (arrghh...wont help for next few years haha), unless we break the cycle and create a new era eg., Cats, then we'll always struggle to attract the type of trades/recruits required to fill the 3, 4 or 5 holes needed to overcome A (above) and to also win the ultimate prize. I also believe we aren't alone here ie., Bulldogs, Richmond, Saints. The talent/big trades, more renowned coaches (Sheedy an exception as we had a shot and went for... ) tend to always want to go where the recent success is and is likely to continue or to coach lists that look very promising (obviously). We have a small window now where we have an attractive rookie list with a few decent senior players. Not gonna stay open forever though and and then this era/opportunity is gone. The next 6-8 weeks are going to very interesting times for the MFC i feel.

Taking Boomer AND Green out you get average games played ... Roos: 66.86 Demons: 49.68 And these.... Average games played for players in the following experience categories. Note: I've take the most inexperienced (0-49 games), Next rung up 50 - 99 and the most experienced (100+ games). Can't afford time to split into 150 - 199 etc and frankly there isn't enough players from either team to make the stats meaningful so haven't included these carve outs. Happy to supply excel spreadsheet if needed. But listening to Mick on Sunday, he reckons that most players aren't truly up for the rigours of 4 full quarters of full on footy at AFL level until he has at least 100 games under his belt...so that's why i've used 100+ games for the experienced category. Not very scientific i realise but i think Micks a much better judge (obviously) than i am lol (and saves me time too!): 0-49 Games Played (Average/Number of Players) Roos: 21.40* / 10 Demons: 26.15^ / 13 *Most inexperienced - Harper, 3 Games ^Most inexperienced - Tapscott, 7 Games 50-99 Games Played (Average/Number of Players) Roos: 69.33 / 6 Demons: 76.60 / 5 100+ Games Played (Average/Number of Players) Roos: 191.50* / 6 Demons: 149.25^ / 4 *Most experienced - Harvey, 308 games played ^Most experienced - Green, 227 games played Cheers Deminions P.S. Thanks to Sweetman for original stats. Oh, if anyone's interested... i'll probably do this for myself prior to each match once teams are out and IF i have the time. I can post if you want when done...or supply spreadsheet. B)

Other than GCS, Adelaide (after a load of external pressure and again another win against an interstate club at home) and a few odd quarter spurts in other matches, there hasn't been much footy making it into the forward line for any of our forwards to go nutz on....period. Be interesting to see some comparative inside 25 stats as well. Not saying he's performing anywhere near expectations though. Disappointing to say the least (so far). And no i'm not singling out Greeny here or intending too. Just discussing. He's got a few mates atm. Lets hope he can turn it around, along with the rest of the boys

Yep. He was most possibly the worst agreed, but he still did a share of (heavy) work in the forward line tackle/body wise and created the occasional (very! lol) contest. And he was still part of a 96 point winning team. Deserved more than a week. A blight on committee for choosing him and confidence destroyer (in one week in a blue moon....out the next for ...umm...Jetta/Bennell??). Ok, so maybe team balance and forward set demanded it, and Jetta/Bennell not replacing him directly, but still. Horses for courses. Don't need both Jetta AND Bennell (outside runners and puny bods) at the small confines of shiityhed. Could have fitted him in....even as the sub maybe. We'll never know though.

Interesting points Twister Green doesn't have tank to handle the middle for too long any more, as well as having to push forward/back etc, then he's also expected to pinch hit as a leading forward too to kick occasional goals! So yeh, forward and rotated off the bench more often as required. Best kick in the team for goal inside 50 (up till this year anyway). As for Jurrah, i like that as an option however does he have the tank and the defensive side yet? If he doesn't (and i don't think he does other than in spurts tank wise/no effective defensive side yet) then we also get creamed going the other way (assuming he has a hard working/decent opponent) and given he's further up the ground the damage could be worse in terms of positional scoring opportunities on the turnover. Maybe a neutral outcome at best at present given where he's at. Raw talent alone is not enough at this level i'm afraid. Like many of our newbies, he's got to work much harder if we're going to see the best (and get the best) of Jurrah going forward

I'm with you here Dee. Roll the dice and put pressure on the outs looking to come back, and a few of the worst case performers from Sat. Put e'one on notice that we're willing to look and search (and take chances) to find those who are willing to fly the flag for this club and put it all on the line week to week (even if they are more inexperienced and Magoosters!) No more pretenders and hangers on. All players should have to fight tooth and nail for their place from here. Honesty and commitment time, whilst showing faith in those who perform over rolling periods versus set KPI's etc. Don't wanna lose all core senior players over a few weeks either as we'd then be throwing the youngsters to the wolves and creating an "every man for himself" mentality rather than a "leaving it all on the park/team" approach. But just a little pressure on the edges so everyone's aware it's no automatic inclusion from here unless you meet your benchmarks/expectations over set periods. And i mean everyone, no senior players should be sacrosanct over these rolling periods of assessment/review either! Bater should be an inclusion at shiityhed and against the hard/veteran bods of the Saints too. Probably a week too late but bater late than never! Shouldn't have been dropped from previous week (certainly not for either Jetta/Bennell at Shittyhed and certainly shouldn't have changed a side that wins by 96 points the previous week other than for injuries/suspensions and/or serious match up issue/s). First game back for year! Needed 2 - 3 in a row to find his place after such a long stint in Magoos....and to find is AFL level pace (as in the speed of the game not his own speed) and AFL level match fitness too. After that he has to earn his place like everyone else (again against KPI's over X number of weeks, certainly not one week and his first week back for some time! ).

Wish some on our list would show as much venom as you two!

>> NOT LOSE (find anyway to win!) culture comment.....spot on. >> Greeny suggestion. Not so spot on. Maybe look for alternative captain somehow. Eg., Moloney. As to how you do this i have no idea, not a shrink . Greeny's being managed poorly position wise. Doesn't have tank engine wise to match it with the big/younger boys in middle now. Leave up forward. Rotate off bench. Use energy to lead, mark and kick goals. After all when he has the energy and he's on....he's the most accurate goal kicker in the team (or was until this season within 50...yep..not saying something's up...but give this option a chance and lets see). Hopefully that'll leave him with something in the tank to also ...CHASE and tackle in our forward 50! (among others!!)

Nice Jordie. Although i've heard Dermy trying to solve our cultural problems previously when we've hit the pit in 96 97!!. Suffice to say it had little impact. As for the Northey comparisons (WYL i think?), i wouldn't say that's a culture we kept around the club for long. Maybe up to 1994. We may have tried to but. Northey departed as we couldn't or didnt want to extend his contract for whatever reasons ($/terms etc) from memory...and with him went the culture he brought and the willingness of the players to die for the jumper. Yes there were a few good years afterwards whilst the players that had come through that culture remained and maintained the effort/practices learnt etc (and we also added the enigma of Jakovich into the mix). However, I think the magic was lost with departure of Northey. In essence i personally don't think the culture at the MFC has always been bad (as stated by WA in an earlier post). But whether it was backed up by best practice facilities and skills training etc at the time of the Northey/Balme years (as referenced by WYL) is another matter. Yep. I also believe it's time for the boys to look each other in the eye just as you say Chappy asked the cats to do in 2007. TIME FOR HONESTY!! But we need some of our guns back and more experience under the belt amongst the top rookies if we're gonna be able to cover so many outs. Agree that gut running ability (or willingness to do this type of hard work) is missing once the heat is on. Hopefully honesty (hard work using new facilities and state of art programs etc) and fine tuning the list/players will overcome this. Not holding my breath on any of this but given we've only just got our hands on these state of the art facilities etc i'm willing to give it 2 more pre-seasons at least before i'll be convinced our culture is totally stuffed going forward lol. But agreed, it's the way we capitulate when the heat is on, and how we hum when all's going sweet that really cuts (chicken's thread below).

1. Yes the game changed out about the 23 minute mark, but not for the reasons you're putting forward: It was about that time that Newton was moved into the ruck or as 3rd man up to follow the ball (and assist Martin). WE had the momentum. North were getting frustrated, against the ropes and starting to skitz it (hence the wack across Juice's scone which resulted in a 50 and goal ie., discipline starting to slip due to our momentum/play). 2. ..."I would have backed Jetta to have more impact at centre bounce than Dunn"...: Lol Rhino. Dunn held his own in the ruck the week before when used as a backup (sharing the forward half contests etc). We used Dunny Brush and others as 3rd man up etc. He did ok, using good body position to overcome height issues etc. He was the best of the fill ins in the ruck contests against Crow Eaters. Watch the match again (in full) and you'll see that (in the limited ruck duals he was involved in) he at least nullified his opponent on a number of occasions at stoppages (yes he was occasionaly beaten too), allowing us to contest and win clearances. Unfortunately he might never contribute again given his performance on Sat. However, i blame that partially on poor management from the Coaching Panel (CP) in terms of not asking a similar role of him given he did a reasonable job the week before in a position/role he would never normally be asked to play. We needed that role (part time fill in for Martin) again against North. 3. Newton into ruck: Isn't and never will be a ruckman or a fill in for one. When moved into the ruck or being used as 3rd man up (with Martin) he gave away a few free kicks and cost us a critical goal right at the end of the 1st quarter (in a ruck dual with Goldstein). Other than giving away free kicks while rucking, he was ineffective once moved and ended up using much of the limited match fitness/energy (AFL level) he would have had in his tank for a pointless role. Better to have conserved what he had and allowed him to keep using it up forward where he's more effective (and was to that point). His confidence was up and the team had an incentive/target to get the pill to him after his good efforts (goals, assists and tackles) in first 23 minutes (approx) of 1st quarter. 4. The decision to move him into the ruck towards the end of the first quarter was (possibly) a set move by the CP. Yes this is a gut feel guess i realise but there had to be some reasoning for it (one would hope!). Eg., Newton had 2 roles on the day and one was to help Martin out and allow him to rest. The CP may (who knows unless one was in the box or involved in the pre-match sessions) have determined this was to occur around the 20 minute mark (approx). Alternatively they saw something we didn't (eg., Martin starting to tire...a worry given he's supposed to be AFL level) and decided to move him around that time. Also possibly planed pre-match of course, only this option offers more flexibility to the CP on game day. Either way it was a woeful move. We lost momentum and initiative right there. North were all over the shop at that stage and ineffective in almost all positions on the ground. WE had the momentum. Martin was holding his own in terms of creating a contest at least and not being totally smashed, albeit overwhelmed by size/class of Goldstein as the match wore on (post 1st quarter). At this point the CP needed to have more faith in our engine room continuing to overcome the Goldstein advantage (which they had to that point) and work hard to get hands on ball first and clear etc. We were humming in that first 23 minutes or so. When you're on a good thing, i say stick to it. If Martin was totally spent then maybe...Dunn into the ruck. Newton stays forward. Rest Martin down back if required last 8 - 10 minutes. Keep up the scoreboard pressure if possible and team Structure! Which leads me to the next point... 5. Structure: The game probably was turned and won from the middle (usually is), but the above didn't help our cause and may have played a big part in turning the momentum that we had up to that point, North's way. We took our biggest asset at that point up forward (Newton) and left our forward line undermanned. Newton may not be the long term answer, but he sure showed something and was way better than anything we've put there this year target/output wise (albeit it was only about 23 minutes....but we'll never know will we!). While he was there, we at least held structure up the spine (Newton, Martin, Chip). Sure, Martin couldn't play 4 quarters against Goldstein and co. without help/rest but he was never expected to. But, moving Newton into the ruck certainly didn't help with the team's structure either IMO. Dunn wasn't ideal as back up either (obviously), but IMO rolling the Dunny Brush dice (Martin's back up) with 3rd man up chop outs to assist him, was a better alternative to ensure Newton stayed forward to maintain at least 2 parts of the structure while Martin was rested. Surely better than the damage (to us) that Dunn managed elsewhere! Also, by having a dangerous target you have the possibility of drawing opponents away from their man to assist in spoiling the marking contest, creating other potential target/options up forward eg., Junkyard Bobby & Air Jurrah. By removing Newton as the effective (tall) target up forward (to that point) it meant one less major problem (advantage/asset for us) for the opponent to try and counter (asset/advantage for them). Anyways. I've already spent enough time venting this view re: Newton being moved on another post at about 3am on Sunday morning when i was half smashed and couldn't sleep. And i'm getting another headache thinking about Saturday's effort/outcome (again). Arghh lol Cheers B)

Nuttin. Just that hindsight is a wonderful thing

Personally i wouldnt like to see Juice dropped. 1st game back in some time, is involved directly in the first 3 goals on Sat, laying a few nice tackles also inside 50. Not his fault he was moved all over the shop from around the 20 minute mark of the first quarter and thereafter. Poor decision making from the box or trying to fill too many gaping holes maybe? Agree on the ruck situation though. Quite a dillema for us. Juice not the answer there. Bate (shouldn't have been dropped for both Jetta/Bennell for Sat in first place), McKenzie i agree with but i think Rivers is yet to show real signs that he's turned around the performances so far this year which are no where near his best and at best...just a pass at AFL level. Can't see too many other senior bodied/experienced obvious alternatives down back however given our outs atm. Is a negating player yes, but no damage the other way and loses out more often than not once the ball hits the turf. B)

Heyy WYL. How's it goin there today. I promise i didn't underline or bold that bit of your quote.... ~ cough cough

Yep. It is isn't it. And yeh, it does feel a little like 2009 doesn't it. And...2007, 2008, and ummm 1974, 1978, 1981, 1996 & 1997 (apart from the Richmond game towards end of season yay! Birth of the Ooz, and a few others i think). P.S. Your use of the word Grime for Grim...nice work lol

Thanks. Just wondered. Curious as to your age more than what you've seen or been through. And no, before there's any clever comebacks (Super!) i'm not looking to ask Sue out! Cheers mate

Hmmm. Ok. How long you been following the MFC Sue? Just curious

You were right O.D. And unfortunately, I was sadly off the money lol (the ever optimist of 40+ years....arghh) I am sad. (Actually i'm not, just annoyed and frustrated etc. The usual feelings most Deminions have after yet another crappy effort) I tips me hat mate Looking forward to your next preview versus Saints. Then again maybe i wont like what i'm gonna read lol. After yesterday's effort and all the outs we have, the Saints will have to lose about 10 players today if we're to have any show i'd think.

Yep, lets set our sights somewhere near the bottom or below average every year. That way at least we'll never disappoint ourselves and usually end up somewhere thereabouts. Also pick up more and more early draft picks once they come back on line so we can rebuild on our earlier years of rebuilding

Will the real Demons please stand up? Given so many injuries early and so many outs beforehand, this was always gonna be a tall order to bring home the bacon. However, yet again, it's the way in which we lost that cuts to the core. No real stand out pride for this club, not guts, no willingness to say "Bring it on Fellas, and we'll give it back in spades". Just a half backed effort from some, with a few odd players giving it a pretty hard go in spurts, and the rest getting blown away when under half decent/reasonable pressure. Don’t get me wrong, there were admirable efforts at times from a few individuals like Jones, Watts, Chip, Maric, Juice etc. But where was the overall team effort from last week? The press up when the ball was in our half? The attack at the footy/ball carrier, numbers at the ball, pressure/tackling in our forward 50 (apart from juice early on…when he was left there) , intensity etc etc from last week? And this against an average to below average opposition (to this point). Yet again, a poorly rated opposition somehow finds a way to play itself into decent form.....against us. Only one win prior to us and that was against Port (on the road) who, if not for Brisbane’s lame start also, would now be holding up the rest of the ladder. Port having only beaten Adelaide this year (at home obviously) and losing to GCS, as we all know. Our structure (through the spine) and match-ups appeared to be working in the first half of that first quarter with Juice up forward, Martin in the middle and Chip leading the charge down back. All appeared well. Yet……out of left field, we move juice into the ruck where IMO he has no idea, then down back (ok he was probably on the ball), then up forward again?? All in the space of the last 10 – 12 minutes? IMO if it aint broke don’t fix it. We were humming. Ok Martin needed a break at some point. But have enough confidence to back your mids to get their share of the pill from the chop outs or opponents ruck work, and clear it and force it forward. Alternatively, at least back them to put enough heat on the opposition and intensity at the ball carrier, to force our fair share of turnovers and possibly more stoppages mid field and around the ground. Where again we have another chance to gain possession, push forward and/or force another stoppage. Instead, what do we get? Bailey (and coaching staff) either panicked or had such a rigid/fixed game that they just had to stick to it, moving juice out of the forward line no matter what was happening up forward or on the scoreboard! Surely we didn’t need to stop what WE were doing well and change it to offset Goldstein or North’s impact at that point? Or was I imagining things, including the scoreboard turning over in our favour every few minutes? North weren’t having any impact at that point. We had them worrying about us up forward and to some degree through the middle with Martin more than coping. And it showed eg., the frustrated slap on Newton resulting in 50 metres resulting in a certain goal. We HAD the momentum! Call me an ignoramus. I’m sure some will can me for this thread as i’m writing angry right now (and I’ve had a few frothies to try n drown the sorrows in). But I just don’t get Bailey (and the FD) at this point. I can’t see or grasp what it is he’s trying to do with this group of players any more, and apart from last week, haven’t been able to all year. As each loss arises, apparently against any team that’s willing to play more than one half of tough, hard-nosed contested (in many cases man on man) footy, I become more and more despondent with the direction, or lack thereof, that he’s sending our boys down. And as for leadership. After watching the game today (and reading through your comments here, listening to the experts on radio, player interviews, coach etc), I gotta say….we appear to have NO one who’s willing to stand tall…week after week…when the heat is really on. All teams have their days when most players are off and they cop the occasional towelling. Happy to except and factor that in. But we are beyond that now I’m afraid. As some have mentioned here already….it’s something ingrained in this Club. Whatever this culture is, it isn’t one that’s going to see us wining consistently going forward. I’ve seen enough this year. I love Greeny and his contribution in the past has been sterling for this club and he’s to be commended. I did say he was a champion (for this club). I was incorrect. He plays star games and great games on occasions as an individual. And he has shown leadership and great courage on many occasions. But… he’s no leader of men, or at least I don’t think this group believes he is. And he certainly doesn’t play mid field well. He looks lost and he’s chasing tails far too often. Half back or forward is fine. After the half time break, the players were looking every which way but at each other or whoever was chatting to them in the huddle (I’m assuming it was Greeny). They appeared as little lost sheep looking for their bo peep! At this point I see only one potential leader. He’s the big bull in the park who the others might follow and be willing to go over the top with. Provided he’s willing and wants it. And he’s willing to put the beer swilling away and truly commit. I say you just gotta throw the dice. IMHO Moloney is THE MAN to lead this club. He might not perform week in week out every week. And yeh he may be a bit of a flat tracker versus real quality opposition. But he has company. And who the hell else have we got at this point who will stand up for us, who intimidates the opponents, willing to take them on in a toe to toe test of strength and brute force? No, brute force alone won't win matches. But it’s sure better than rolling over like a pig in swill. My other big concern if we keep down this patchwork path is this…..and no this isn’t my quote but I noted it some time back when I was reading BigFooty blog one day, and it’s worried me ever since..... “Why would Tom Scully stay and play for a rabble like Melbourne when he can get paid millions to play for a rabble like GWS?....Danair, Big Footy 28 April 2011. And if Tom goes…..i’m not even gonna finish that….it’s just too scary to contemplate. Love or dislike Bailey, we’ve only beaten two Vic teams since his appointment. Richmond twice. And Essendon…..once. Both teams during a period when they were hitting rock bottom on the field or coming off rock bottom (sound familiar?). Bailey still has (in aggregate) the worst win/loss record of any Coach in the AFL (other than one carved out stat versus interstate clubs played here) and unless he produces some kind of miracle on the field from here, this year’s ratio is looking likely to be similar to , or possibly worse than, the lowly (but slightly improved coming off a very low base from 2009) win/loss ratio of last year. As a result of this weeks effort, the Club is now (yet again), on a knife’s edge both Coach wise and, in many ways, player progress/development/leadership wise. I don’t feel that sacking Bailey right now is the answer either. Far from it, being too early in the season as well as having no super duper alternative in the starting blocks or willing to commence half way through a season. But the wolves are about to bay even louder, even more so if the rot continues once we regain a few of our more valued outs in 4 - 5 weeks (hopefully). If the rot doesn’t stop shortly thereafter, and we don’t see a worthy turnaround early into the 2nd half of the season, the supporters/media will no longer be talking about the likelihood of Bailey staying or going. The attention will quickly turn towards “who” the replacement is likely to be for 2012 and what effect, if any, the appointment will have on the likelihood of TS (and others out of contract) re-signing or moving on to real or perceived greener pastures. P.S. I'm not even going to mention Dunn's effort in this post, nor Bailey's efforts in managing him position wise

Oh I dunno.... I COULD ALWAYS USE CAPS!!

The Footy review show afterwards had a replay of a sling tackle on ablett last year (i think)....came in right at the end so i missed most of it. Was tackled by a Sydney player (i think it was SCG) and hit his head on the ground. Took a while to get up....anyone know about this incident and the outcome re MRP if it was looked at?

Yeh Tricky. So you should be. Don't knock the Belze. It's a pretty serious hobby he's taken up!

Heard it was a pre-briefing for a guest appearance on Footy Flashbacks B)

Fair enough Jumbo. I think we're both seeing him at this point as a "work in progress". Opinions divided as to where he's at. I'm willing to give him a good go in seniors while Jamar's out to see what he's got for us. I've been pleased with this year compared to last (yep, Wet Coke game excluded, but hey....the list there would be as long as your arm!). Appears to be putting in the hard yards off the field. Lets hope he can keep on improving from here for the team's sake.

Arghh. Ok O.D. But i wont be beatin my own drum regardless of whether it turns out something like the way i'm seeing it. I'm just pi$$in into the wind from the top stand i think. Hec, I was wrong on Bater and MacDonald (being picked) and game hasn't even started lol! At end of the day it's just an opinion/feeling based on many years of watching from the stands and tv. Many more learned and experienced footy peeps (and some good local/ex footy players etc) on this site that would cut my opinions/views to pieces with more solid/sound reasoning and experience/knowledge (including yourself maybe). And sometimes they do !!