binman

Personally i liked my defenders to spoil the ball at least 36.2 metres. Kill that ball. Let it come back from the grave. Then kill it again. Now that's insane.

If we askee nicely would they put him on ice?

Ugh

It is indisptuable our pressure dropped of significantly in the last 6-8 games. Injuries and general tiredness took their toll. As i have been at pains to say that pressure drop exposes zone defences. But given our scoring was also based partly on that same zone defence through run off hb and super quick ball movement and transition our scoring also suffered. If we had - as seems to be the case - simply ran out of gas goody had to respond somehow. And dropping tmac back to play man on man and essentialy replacing frosty's aggressive run might have been that response.

see below

Interesting comments from bmjnr. I have no doubt we had many players playing injured. Gawn is an obvious one. Watts wasn't right. Viney obviouly. Hogan of course. Even jones. All struggled to come up from serious injuries. And it would make sense also that injuries played a role in the mid field pressure dropping off, which was the key reason our season fell away. I have always maintained injuries are the biggest determinant of a teams success. And the culture in footy is still strong not to blame injuries. Gives another soldier a chance and all that palaver. Its not just the games lost it is players struggling to get back to their optimal level. Often they simply don't until the following season. A key factor in the tigers this year has been their run with injury. And obviously a big factor in gws struggles is their shocking run. Amazing they are top 4. The zone comment is interesting. Im pretty sure they were full zone against port. My sense is that tmac was largely man on man when he went back which disrupted the set up. I wasn't against dropping frost at the time but they also dropped salem. And then tmac went back. And he was actually pretty poor down back. Particularly against the pies but also the lions. Robbed us of a really good forward and hurt our backline. In hindsight goody made a big error.

Good post Farmer. The bottom line this season is we did not score enough. To put our defence into the proper perspective we only had 100 or more points scored on us 5 times for the season. Five. In one of those games we won . Two were early on when all teams were scoring high (with the cats swamping us after we lost gawn at half time) and the last one was the rampant crows when we ran out of legs. No question Tmacs younger brother was better when Tmac went back. I think he will end up being the better player full stop. I have watched him closely all season and he is better kick and decision maker who makes very few errors. As evidence of this i i have little doubt he will poll well in the bluey. I have been told that the club is very confident about him eventually being the better player than Tmac. This was a big factor in why, much to one posters immense frustration, they let Dunn and did not see the need to replace him with a stop gap whilst they were wating for Lever to compliment him down back. A star? I think he has the ability but has long way to go. But what gives me enormous confidence is he is a kid. Only 21 and since making his debut in 2016 has barely missed a game such is the confidence the club has in him. He is tracking fantastically and well ahead of his brother at the same age - indeed ahead of many players of his size at comparable stages. He will fill out and put on 5-10kg more muscle and be a beast in years to come. A star is a big call but i'll tell you something for free. If it comes to pass you will have earned a great deal more credit in the talent spotting stakes than predicting a top draft pick will become one. Lever for example.

What makes you deduce bandicoot can't see real talent from the comment of his you quoted?

Sorry, i'm a bit confused. Did i miss something? Who on 'here' is saying 'his stats aren't good enough???'

Yep 100% agree. Really only Oliver is an A grader ATM. Plus we have focused so much on contested ball winners we really lack outside skill. As you say any side with really good midfields hurt us, even if they are otherwise not that strong. Brisbane, North and the pies come to mind. But the situation was made worse by Gawn's dramatic drop off in form and influence. He must have been carrying injuries as he first half of the Port game was the only time post his hammy he was anywhere near his best. And then he got injured again. And Ports midfield dragged them back into the game.

You're funny Steve. Surely to goodness you realised i was having a joke and this quote is an attempt at irony. My bias? Surely you are jesting? Your Lever bias is more than a little concerning. But if you didn't get my joke i'll spell it out Lever is a terrific player. No question. I have never said any different. I hope we get him. But it doesn't a take a football talent savant to have worked out Lever is a really good player. Few if any people overrate him. With perhaps one exception. You. The way you rave about him $850 would be a steal.

Shhh. Lever is going to be the greatest defender of his generation. Better than Rance (so much more advanced at the same age i can hear the acolytes whisper). And so young. So much potential. Will be the best recruit the dees have ever had.

I think a more accurate comment would be lever is (more than) a tad over rated by some on this site. Well one on this site.

Look i'm over it Jnr. I couldn't really care less anymore. But honestly i don't understand how you can see things so black and white, no pun intended. Yes the pies took 7 marks in their forward 50 and yes Cox and Grundy smashed us. But honestly, i don't mean to be rude but it just way to simplistic to simply blame the defenders for this. They were poor as it turns out. Only jetta of the back six got close to a pass mark. The rest were average particularly Hibberd, Tmac and Hunt. Ironically enough despite this we still kept them to under 100 points (just) and once again couldn't muster a winning score. But for god's sake the midfield pressure was appalling in the first quarter, when all the damage was done. Woeful. We were down 10 contested possessions at quarter time. Ten!. We were at least that many tackles down. We didn't lay our first tackle until the 20 minute mark of the fist quarter. 20 minutes of AFL football without a single tackle! We only laid 3 for the whole first quarter. Unforgivable. Grundy smashed us? No wonder given Gawn barely could stay with him all day. Gawn's defensive pressure was appalling. His job is to ensure the opposition ruckman don't swan in their forward line and get easy marks. Martin also toweled him up. I just hope injury is to blame. There is lot of love for lever on this site and i'm also keen to get him. But their defence gave up 100 points against a low scoring side and were dominated in the first half. Was that because they their defence as poor? No of course not. It was because as we could all see, like us against the pies, the crows simply did not apply anywhere near enough pressure all over the ground, but particularly through the mid field. Lever won't help a jot if we play like we did last Saturday. And if we don't bring the required pressure every game we also won't fully benefit from his real skill which is his intercept marking. Like Rance he is at his most dangerous when the opposition are forced to kick under pressure into their 50 like we were by Brisbane and the Pies. Such kicks rarely hit targets or go to a forwards advantage and are easy picking for players like Lever, Rance and dare i say it Howe. Sides putting more pressure on than us than we do on them mean that it is not just down back we get out marked. We got out marked all over the bloody ground for the last 9 games of thew season. But sure Jnr blame the defenders, in particular the talls. And let yourself believe that lever will fix our problems. Knock yourself out. For me i'd rather take a more nuanced, dare i say it modern approach to analysing what the problem is and therefore what the solution might be. As Goody will be no doubt. I think a really good question is the one BB alludes to above. Is our zone system the right one? And the corollary does our game plan measure up? Our game plan completely depends on manic pressure. As we have seen since the dogs game any drop off in that pressure exposes our zone defence, in part because as BB notes it allows teams to move the ball quickly through the corridor. Lever will help no doubt as he will cut off some attacks but we saw in the crows wc game it still won't be enough if we don't apply sufficient all team pressure. The other problem with our game plan and aggressive zoning is that poor disposal and turnovers exposes us on the rebound, much more so than say the pies or teams with less aggressive zones. Buckley has been often been criticized for not being tactically savy or up with modern approaches. An example is he plays a much more traditional man on man defence. But the advantage of that approach is that it offers protection against quick ball movement and turnovers as defenders are better placed to avoid getting caught in no man's land. We saw this on Saturday when they were able to stymie us and not allow forward space even when we moved the ball quickly. Dunn thrives on this approach and played really well on Saturday. I really wonder if Goody's game plan is the right one. It is very taxing and depends on having players who do not tun the ball over a lot. But i also wonder if our wretched run with injuries should be factored in when assessing its effectiveness as should the fact that it is far from bedded down and is work in progress. I hate to say it but Richmond are playing exactly the game we aspire too. Manic pressure all over the ground. Pressure that means sides dump kick into their forward half and often into the tigers hands. Intense forward pressure that traps the ball there. Aggressive zone defence. Unusual forward leading patterns. Cross the ball and hold it until there is an opening and then move the ball super fast and run in waves. Hard gut running, particularly defensive running. But they have a great run with injury and have by in large better users of the a ball. Still they are the template for us. And i expect we will look to use that template. But i'm out. I'm not going to comment any more on this topic. Let's agree to disagree and move on to trade rumours and who to draft.

Which really doesnt make sense. As a dees supporter he would be all too aware of how crap we are

Yep. Spot on. To the easy oppo goals you can add all the blown scoring opportunities when players miss easy clear targets in the forward 50 and/or not kicking it the forwards advantage.

I like rather than love statistics. But i get really frustrated with how hard it is to get access to decent stats. The AFL love to compare footy here to sports in the US but our media and our access to decent stats are a complete joke in comparison. It is overwhelming how much publicly available stats there is about the NBA baseball and NFL. And no doubt NHL. ATM, as i understand it only the clubs and some media outlets get all Champion data stats - because they pay for it. The AFL should buy the stats off Champion data and make it publicly available. I would love a thread on DL with up to date decent stats, particularly those about the MFC. For example individual player stats that are more detailed than that on AFL.com or free sites like footywire (which is a terrific site). Do any DL posters have aaccess to champion data stats? if so can they be shared - perhaps not all but at least some more detailed stuff? A thread a analyzing that sort of data would be really interesting.

Absolutely. Might be the best player in the afl full stop within 2 years. Not far away now. Truly a once in a generation plsyer. Not a single club would take lever over kelly if they were given the choice and money was not a factor. But money is a factor for us. Not so much in terms of salary cap but more in terms of the potential damage to the 'brotherhood', team first culture roos and goody have built. That said - and against the predictions of many - it hasnt seemed to have hurt the swans buddy coming in and being paid a fortune

Steve your credibility tank ia almost empty. By the way im still looking forward to your promised analysis of every one of tmacs younger brother's involvements from a game few weeks back.

Yep. But one thing they def want/need is reaaly goos kicks. Lever, no 28, salem, hibberd and jetts all have twrrific de which is important in a defensive unit

What hobby horse? Stating facts?

There are fewer and fewer gorilla keepers and direct man on man defensive match ups as such. Someone like Dunn is becoming increasingly rare. Sure sometimes a Tmac might match up directly against a big but generally you try and stop the talls with your system. To a large extent it is about the oppositions total score not how many the key forward kicks (though obviously they have a relationship). Teams would factor in the players you mention are likely to kick 2 or 3 goals a game and if you limit them to that that's pretty good. And sometimes even 4 or 5 is ok depending on how well you shut down other players. If the lions had kept Jessie to 4 goals they would have almost won. Brown's 4 goals against us (three of which coming from marks from mismatches) in our last roos game wasn't the issue. We kept them to a beatable score. The dees only kicking two goals in the second half was the issue. Here is the top 5 in this years coleman. All are averaging 2-3 golas a game, with the exception of Kennedy who is averaging four. Joshua Kennedy 64 (from only 16 games!) Joe Daniher Essendon 60 Lance Franklin Sydney 59 Ben Brown North Melbourne 56 Taylor Walker Adelaide 49

I'm pretty sure the pies planned to take him. We got him first

I have to say it is looking very likely Lever is coming to the dees. The noise has been consistent, it seems a given he is leaving and the dees seem to be the favorite among journos etc

We also got hunt in that deal. Good deal i reckon