jabberwocky

No we are currently in this position because our window has closed and we are playing a large number of inexperienced players who are learning thier own game and where to fit into the side. Some of these young players will make the grade some will not. 1. Some players are showing that they are not yet up to it ie Newton, Bode. 2. Some have been in the system and haven't improved enough ie Sylvia, Bell. 3. Others are showing a bit from early on ie Valenti, Martin, Garland. 4. Others have matured this year, Miller, CJ and PJ. Trades should come from an area from which we have an oversupply or from group 2. Trading away your assets as soon as they mature to is counterproductive. It doesnt even need to be explained. And what type of culture are we creating when we trade you away as soon as you show that you are any good. Short sighted knee jerk reactions do not build a footy side. Showing faith in the players that display the right attributes on the field and on the track build good footy sides. And in defense of CJ performing under pressure. A couple of months ago he was in Sandy playing to stay on an AFL list. I suspect that he knew it was his last roll of the dice. It is under this pressure that he has performed his best.

Hannabal I understand you have high expectations of players and so do I but do you need to dismiss every player because they have a perceived deficiency. All players have them. Norm Smith medalists abound with players with deficiencies that play thier role well. CJ is playing his role well and his ilk are required atm.

I really like this idea. He is mobile, quick enough and excellent at ground level and has good skills. It could help give or back men a target and get the ball past half forward which we have trouble doing. Maybe even chuck him in the square at the bounces to crash through some blokes in the right conditions?? It may or may not work.

Ditto. CJ is one of the classy running half backs we were crying out for ditto Petterd. Need him for so many reasons.

What does this mean exactly YM??

Didn't see the incident but his role is to stay down and face the contest front and square and get the crumb, not to fly. He is a courageous player on the deck. It would surprise if his decision was to pull out of a contest from fear.

I too get frustrated by unrealistic comparisons and if Valenti turns out to be half as good as diesel etc etc. the point is many people had diesel classed as a C grader early on because of his lack of leg speed. I think it is far too early to call valenti a C grader as it is far too early to call him an A grader. my feeling is he will be better than you think and a consistently good player for us, but time will tell. And what else are we supposed to compare AFL footballers than with other AFL footballers. When it is suggested hat he is a Sam Mitchell type player it is that he is not quick but wins possession and uses it well bringing other players into the game, not that he is as good.

Hannabal how is it that you can categorise a player as C grade after just a handful of games. I understand that he is not pacey and is small but diesel williams and to a (much) lesser extent Liberatore was small and slowish. Mitchell, Kirk, Black etc are not C graders though they are not quick. Valenti has shown an ability to get then footy and be creative with it after a few games. This is surely a good sign that he could make the grade. He is not going to break a game open with pace but controlling the stoppages is a very important part of modern footy. Add 2 or 3 classy midfielders and a a key forward to the side and the team as a whole would have a much better perspective and individual players will appear better pushing them up a grade. This is how a good footy team works. When people get excited about an effective no frills midfielder they are getting excited that one of those important team positions could be filled. Taggers, good defenders etc are not glamorous but very valuable. 22 players it takes to win a premiership. Usually only 1 or 2 are bona fide stars. I hate comparing players but diesel and libba both hard to work very hard to break into senior footy and needed to consistently excell at lower grades to get an oppotunity. I like Valenti, I think he will be an important part of the future and will become one of our most consistent weekly performers.

not as quick or elusive. he is a handy player. good decisions and skills and finds the footy. very important player for us atm without brock. we need polish and pace around the ball to compliment jones, mclean and valenti.

Sounds positive and realistic to me. We are rebuilding this club from the ground up, footy and admin. What would you have him say?

yep.

Sorry HT wasn't meant for you. more for TU.

"How does everyone see the crop of youngsters coming through. This is based on everything, but ultimately where you think they will end up at the end of their careers (hunches are a justifiable reason)" This was the question posed. It was about where you believed the players would be ranked when they had finished thier careers.

Among the tossers of the game he ranks more highly that Tredrea, Farmer, Chad Cornes and Fevola. He is in the supertosser league and will be discarded forever at years end.

Ironcheeks?

1. Jones- Will be the engine room for years to come. Will adapt and change his game and grow with our midfield. 2. C.Morton- Classy, clever and skilful(yes skilful). Body to develop and decision making and skills under pressure to improve. Big engine and finds the footy. 3. Martin- Athletic, strong big man with heaps of improvement and a good brain under pressure. Could finish up the best of the lot. 4. Petterd- Classy and confident midfielder who finds the footy and is evasive. Heaps of improvement to come. 5. Bate - Strong forward with a big left hoof. Dangerous around goal and on the lead. Finds the footy. Consistency needed with maturity. 6. Garland- Maybe too low here. Athletic and quick, strong mark and good skills with sound decision making. Flexibility a real asset. Can play tall or small. Again could end up a lot closer to the top of this list. 7. Buckley- Hard running flanker who breaks the lines. If skills and defensive game improve he could be a great asset. If not he will be on the fringe. 8. Dunn- Hard running tall who does not play tall and struggles in the air. A handy tagger. 9. Bartram- Quick defensive player currently limited by his skills and dceision making. Can find the footy. 10. Wonaeamirri- Highly skilled evasive player with goal sense. I hope he becomes a champion but I fear that he will find things tough in the next couple of seasons. Hopefully I am wrong and he moves into the midfield and kills them. I suspect that he doesnt have the motor or pace for that role. 11. Frawley- I suspect that he won't make it. 12. Newton- Good high mark but a one trick pony. He struggles when the ball hits the turf. Modern players need more that one string to thier bow. Questionable attitude and workrate. I suspect that he wont make it. 13. Bode- Quick but skills and decision making let him down. Struggles to find the footy and influence game.

1. Valenti gets the footy. I agree that on many occasions he didnt use it well, though I thought it was an execution issue and not the decision making. He need to be given the grace of a few consecutive weeks to see if he can settle down. He is strong over the footy and stands up well in the tackle. 2. I like the look of him. Athletic and looks fairly strong. Took a nice contested mark where he ran back turned and leapt at the footy showing some of his atheticism. Too early to call but he looks like an exciting prospect. 3. I think that he has had plenty of games to show what he has and hasn't produced at senior level. Bailey has given him every opportunity.

On the contrary. When he has been on song his hands overhead are excellent. Just because he has good mobility and wins possessions in other ways doesn't mean he doesn't play tall. What you might be referring to is his vertical leap. I cant recall him getting off the ground in a big way but all players have thier limitations. I see him more as a bullocking, strong leading forward. The perfect CHF is one that can mark the footy and be dangerous when the ball hits the ground as well. Bater is capable of being that player.

Looked up Bates Profile and was surprised to see that he is 192cm. Is that right? He is strongly built and will no doubt get stronger. He is good overhead and has a thumping and accurate left foot. Could he be developed into our permanent CHF? Jonathan Brown 195cm Travis Cloke 196cm Scott Lucas 192cm Jarryd Roughead 193cm Nick Riewoldt 193cm I never really saw him as a KPP, rather as a mobile flanker with good hands but maybe he could be one of the key forwards that we need. I think he has the strength and the overhead marking ability. Thoughts?

on the other side of the coin there have been teams throughout history that have had the cattle without the culture and failed to win a flag. And there have been some seemingly average teams win flags for the opposite reason. reason and history dictates that the best chance of winning a flag is clever recruiting and building a winning/competitive mentality. What is that you suggest the coach does with the players, advise them not to try? play them out of position? how would that aid thier development looking forward? If we were to tank as you suggest what would be the strategy to make this happen without damaging the development, confidence and mindset of the players?

I actually agree 100%. Many of todays ruckmen contest the hitouts but are innefective as midfileders. A mobile ruckman who has the stamina and skills to be a linkman is a huge advantage. Thats where guys like Cox and Stynes stand out. A ruckman that can take contested grabs in the back line and kick goals in the forward line is also gold. Cox does these things too (to a lesser extent). Cox stands out at the moment because there are not the elite ruckmen in the comp that there was say 10 years ago. It could be that the game has become too quick for a lot of the big men to stay consistently involved.

Only Dean Bailey and the coaching staff are in the position to make a call on Dunn's selection (or non selection). If Dean Bailey has warned Dunn about these issues previously then ommission may be warranted. If not I would suspect that he would have a disussion re how he could have turned his serviceable game into a great game by putting his body on the line on those occasions. Dunn and other players need to be aware of the standard required. This is Bailey's first year and it is about imposing a new standard on the playing group. The time for action comes when the players learn the standard and are aware of it but don't cosistently perform to it.

if there was ever a week for him to get a game i thought this would be it.

if bell cant get a game at melbourne, where will he get a game.

never ask a question that u don't know the answer to yourself. You will obviously want to have the last say as you strike me as that sort of person. I will walk away with my head held high, knowing that for some reason?? you attempted to undermine me and failed. I hope you arguments in the future make a little more sense and dont rely on backflips and osbscure generalisations especially considering that you admitted to agreeing with me. A very strange discussion indeed.