tiers

To Man Dee. The bad treatment referred to is entirely to do with the failure of the FD to come clean on the story. That is not speculation, but fact. I am not aware of a statement from the club that is clear and unambiguous. That they have allowed the ill informed commentary to continue unabated is the distasteful and demeaning behavior of the FD. If Jack's behavior and attitude are not acceptable, explain why to the club's supporters and we can all move on.

This saga has been going on for far too long. It is an embarrassment to the club, the coach and the supporters. Jack has been very badly treated by the collective FD. If there was a problem, they should have come out at the beginning and made the case. For the FD to let it drag out in small bits of assumption, speculation, innuendo and straight out invention and place his teammates in difficult positions at press interviews is a failure of the FD and the coach. If Jack is not up to it, say so and move on. 25 pages of comment on 'land is about 24 too many. In my mind, the FD will have to excel in the future to overcome this distasteful and demeaning episode.

No need to photoshop. Jesse was definitely at the family day sitting next to TMac when I took my grandson through and we met Nev going up on the stairs to join them. The pile of bananas above TMac's right shoulder is the sign of authenticity. Notice also the signing pen in Jesse's left hand. By the way, couldn't meet a nicer group of young men who were wonderful to the youngsters. Glad they're ours. Go dees.

I agree with Nascent. No favourites, no guaranteed finals positions, incentives for all teams to play hard up to round 17 as group assignments would not be known until the end of the round (draw to be made as late as possible to maintain interest), further incentives in the final 5 games for up to 12 teams to progress, less chance of the system being gamed by unscrupulous or creative coaches, maintain interest till round 22. One downside - teams would not be able to challenge those closest to them eg. 7, 8 and 9 for the final spot in the eight. Acceptable compromise. Last year I also proposed a similar staggered round robin series for the first three weeks of the finals. Combined the potential is awesome.

A cup of tea to Tony Tea. Spot on. Balme was an intelligent and inventive coach who, when savagely cruelled by injury, had the guts to move David Neitz from CHB to CHF and FF. Not trying to stop goals but score goals was his motive. He lost the job when, in one game, his key forwards were Charles and Farmer. Desperately unlucky. The return of Lyon, Schwarz, Tingay, G Lovett, Viney in 1998, plus White and Travis, made Neale Daniher's reputation as a coach. He was very fortunate.

Enforce the rules sensibly. Watch replays of 70s and 80s games and the umpire blows the whistle as soon as the ball stops. Quick ball up (bounce) and play moves on. Change the interpretation so that once the ball is trapped and stopped its a ball up and eliminate the rolling scrums that only attract crowds. If the AFl needs to change rules to be seen as relevant, then I propose the following: No player can be interchanged more than once in a quarter (including injuries). Once and once only will build endurance or force players to rest on the ground. No more than 2 players may tackle an opponent who's standing and only one if the player is on the ground. No more stacks on the mill holding the ball in and therefore distribution of the ball from packs will become easier to keep the ball moving. At ball ups and throw ins the ruckmen are not to engage until the ball is in the air. Stop the pushing and shoving before the ball is even in play to encourage proper ruck work to clear packs (for those who remember Farmer and Nicholls were masters of the craft). The 50m arc was introduced in 1987 as an aid to players and commentators, not as a zone. Any attempt to use it as a zone will be a grievous betrayal of the spirit of our great game that demands that free kicks be earned through contested play, not through over technical adherence to obscure rules or strict liability interpretations eg 50m penalties for inconsequentially standing on the wrong side of a blade of grass while on the mark. We must protect the spirit of game that places our footy several orders of magnitude above all other sporting codes in the world.

So training form is now considered to be a useful guide to match form? Spencil and Trenners, who have been soundly and roundly criticised for training too well, are now in the best 22? Moonshadow recollection is spot on. No disrespect to Crossy but he was becoming a liability in 2015 with his lack of leg speed and unreliable kicking to advantage. He was of limited value in a rapidly improving young team. Good decision by the club and even better decision by Crossy.

I am with BBPowell. The leadership group should be restricted to no more than 3 - captain, vice, deputy vice - to lead by example and provide encouragement at training and on the field. Nathan Jones, Jack Viney and Max Gawn. The players and supporters would follow them anywhere. I know I would. In addition, some players are worthy of being appointed as on field leaders - T Mac backs, Jordan Lewis midfield and Jack Watts forwards - to have the coaches authority to direct team mates during the match on positioning, match ups and filling gaps. They are mature, key players who should have an understanding of what is required in matches. Keep it simple.

Re: Jake Spencer and Jack Trengove Neither have had a real pre season for years that would have prepared them adequately for match days. That they have shown improved ability following an unbroken pre season to date should be a positive for the club and all supporters. Spencil is a big bodied ruckman who has speed, grunt and endurance and can be competitive at the highest level. How many clubs can boast 2 such ruckmen? How do we know if the FD is not developing a strategy around creating an imbalance on the ground and using Max and Pencil at the same time? How many opposition clubs would be stretched? There is a simplistic notion that modern footy is all about speed and spread. But really it is as much about creating imbalances on the field. Imagine Spencil or Max resting in the forward line and taking away Jesse Hogan's gorilla opponent or alternating off the bench so that there is always a rested ruckman on the ground or dividing the ground in two (back line and centre, forward line) and sharing the load.. Players are here to play roles for the benefit of the team, not impress the critics with their speed and skills. I recall that both played in the great victory at Geelong in 2015. Jack was a champion before his injury and deserves a fair go to prove his value again. This constant obsession with foot speed is becoming tedious. Spread does not rely on speed, it relies on having the footy smarts to be able to read the play and anticipate when to go and where before the opposition. So long as he gets to the right positions and gets there without an opponent, he can walk as far as I care. As for defensive speed, if finds himself on a faster player (which can happen to any player except Hunt) then it is up to the on field or off field leadership to make the necessary adjustment. That is what good coaching is meant to do. There are enough coaches to go around. Give Jake and Jack a chance and don't dismiss their prospects too soon. I hope they surprise.

I am with Saty. Repetitive boilerplate comments on players perceived strengths and weaknesses do nothing to advance this discussion. The old bromides such as too much or too little strength, speed, courage, stamina, skill, fat, muscle definition, footy smarts, charm, looks etc etc etc are just boring. considered and thoughtful contributions are preferred. I previously suggested a second mirror thread where commentary can be separated from inanities. Why not Demonland?

Patrick Smith is a first class PITA on most issues. Pompous and prissy all at the same time. But his assessment of the sad Hird saga is spot on. Hird offered to take full responsibility and then sought to evade any responsibility. Says a lot about character. He sought and received the most awful legal and PR advice that sank him further into the mire. Self destruction and self delusion at its saddest. No one deserves to lose his will to live but there are others in this saga who are more deserving of our sympathy.

What a lot of hooey and hogwash. Jack Trengove has shown the ability to get to the contest, win the ball and deliver it to advantage. That's all we want from him. Speed is but one attribute that contributes to the ability to get to the contest. Others include reading the flight of the ball, making good decisions on when to go the the contest, being in the right place when the ball arrives and being able to evade your opponent. On the other hand, foot speed is valuable to escape being tackled but thought speed and hand speed are just as important in delivering the ball to advantage. Williams and Mitchell have been cited as examples of slow players who nevertheless displayed footy brilliance. Their special skills were showcased by the players around them who instinctively knew where to be to receive the ball. That takes patient coaching and many games played together as a team. Jack has never had that luxury and he has been expected to carry too much of the load at a time when the club was unable to develop its list. The ongoing criticisms of Jack for being too slow are unwarranted and unfair. He is a genuine footballer and deserves the chance to play in a good, competitive team to show his wares. He might surprise.

The keys to a good set kick are the ball drop and the timing. The ball drop can be taught and improved but the timing is innate. Jack's ball drop is superior because he guides the ball onto his foot before the release Jesse's ball drop can be clumsy as the release is too early so that it is more of a drop than a guide. Repetitive ball drop exercises using short kicks can improve the ball drop. Practicing the ball drop with one hand requires a later release and, when using the non-preferred side, is a good exercise to develop non-preferred foot kicking. Watch Chunka when he kicks with his left foot - his left hand mimics his right hand. Practice makes perfect. The difference between good and not-so-good timing is apparent in the aesthetics of the kick and in the distance achieved. Notice how all reliable good kicks control the ball onto the foot and kick sweetly over long distance with little apparent effort. No one was better than Bernie Quinlan. Size doesn't matter - shorties can kick as long as biggies if they have a good ball drop and good timing. For hurried kicks and kicks on the run there is another key - the feel of the ball in the hands. Some players have an innate ability to feel the ball in their hands, instinctively adjust the ball for the best ball drop and deliver a good kick. For the others, every kick can be a lottery. In addition to Jack Watts, Cam Pedersen and Christian Salem have a lovely style and can deliver quality reliable kicks. Worth studying.

That's not fair to our Robbie. Comparing two players from different eras on the basis of team results is neither fitting nor appropriate. Premierships should not be the measure - consider Kevin Murray, Bob Skilton and Bob Murphy who would vie for favourite player status at Fitzroy, South Melbourne and Footscray respectively. The criterion for this thread was favourite, not best or most successful or most dominant. Robbie was just as much a favourite in his time as RDB was in his time.

This topic requires such a personal and subjective choice that all choices are correct. In particular, I agree with both Whispering and Vogon for the reasons they provided although my own choices are different. There is a story about Robbie that sums up why, unlike Whispering, I believe that Robbie should be considered a favourite at least the equal of RDB. Robbie had all the qualities listed for RDB as well as determination and persistence (so did RDB) as well as the singular, incomparable and eye catching beauty and grace of his game. In his first final against NM in 1987, early in the first quarter, Robbie flew over the pack in the goal square, marked the ball and kicked a goal. As we cheered, a voice in the crowd yelled out "I can go home now, that's all I wanted to see". The Demon supporters in the crowd understood immediately. I bet no one ever said that about RDB. That makes them equal.

I agree with SWYL. The player to step up could not possibly be identified yet (who expected Hunt?) and how would it matter? It is the team as a whole that will step up, one small step at a time. Watching them mature as footballers and gell as a unit is my wish. Go dees.

Too many players over too many years to consider. So I will make two lists of five - the first from the late 50s and 60s when I had a boy's view of the team and the second from the beginning of the renaissance in 1987 when I had a more mature view. I have excluded the current crop as it is only fair to give them time to develop and show their talent but Oliver would be close. All those listed have displayed an individual and uncommon skill or talent that made them exceptional. In no particular order, my favourite players are: 50s/60s RDB, Hassa Mann, John Townsend, Tassie Johnson, Phil Rhoden (his sublime drop kicks from full back in the reserves have never been matched) Post 87 Robert Flower, David Schwarz, Jim Stynes, Travis Johnstone, Garry Lyon (apologies to Allen Jakovich)

Thank you to Macca for starting this topic. For an old bugger like me who can remember the 50s (just) I have decided to restrict my choices to those players who commenced playing with MFC after the 1964 premiership ie 1965 onwards. This excludes Tassie J, Vagg and Townsend and also excludes Carl Ditterich who played his first game in 1963. I would make three changes to the squad. In - Gerard Healy, Gary Baker, Steven Smith Out - Jeff White, Rod Grinter, Laurie Fowler. When he played for us Healy was an out and out champion who kicked over 70 goals in a year in a crappy side and he wasn't even full forward. Mark Jackson was and kicked the same and we still couldn't make the finals. Gary Baker at his best for us was a stand out dominant influence on a crappy side. Steven Smith also played in crappy sides but was a standout performer, often one out in the back line. Positional changes. I agree with ProDee, Jackovich makes way for no-one at full forward, even the great Neeta. At his best he was all braggadocio but he could back it up, kick outrageous goals and make opponents look silly. He also had class as shown by his loving kiss to his brother's cheek when he kicked a great goal. David Neitz to CHB and Gary Hardeman to HBF. Neeta was a champion CHB and had the wood on Carey. A HB line of Lovett, Neitz and Hardeman would equal any HB line in the history of our club and probably the VFL/AFL. Steven Smith to FB and Sean Wight, a dynamic, versatile and determined player, to the back pocket where he played his best games. Alan Johnson was a champion wingman who turned himself into a champion attacking back pocket. Played a 10/10 in a final at Waverley. Could there ever have been a better centre line than Alves, Wells, Flower? Adams, Mithen, Dixon from the 50s and 60s would challenge strongly but Robbie's inclusion sets it above all others. A forward line comprising Wilson, Schwarz, Lyon, Healy, Jackovich and Farmer in almost any configuration would be dominant. Alas, they were from different eras and were cruelled by injury to Schwarz, Lyon and Jackovich. Travis stays. In this company, his brilliance would shine through as he would finally have the players who could take advantage of his sublime ball skills. Steven Febey, Adem Yze and Gary Baker provide flexibility on the bench. Ahhhh, what if?

We are sometimes too quick to place our midfielders into categories - inside, outside, running, distributor etc- when in reality they can each do it all as required by the situation. We rightly laud Viney as in inside grunt player but he can also be a clearance player with his strength, backwards evasive step and his desire to take on the field. Clarrie has the best hands but can be just as damaging running free with his long, albeit irregular, kicking that gains distance. Hunt and Harmes can link possessions and then run away towards goal. Salem and Tracca are great distributors by foot and can win the ball inside. And then there are Jones, Vince, Brayshaw, Stretch, Tyson, ANB, AVB and some new guy Lewis who can play any role. Add to that running backs Frost, Jetta, Melksham, Hibbert and running forwards Garlett, JKH, Johnstone, Watts and the coaching panel has a full suite of options and set ups to chose from. We are finally building a multi talented midfield group that can match and defeat any opposing midfield. Let's give them time and space to develop and gell as a group. I can wait.

Agree. We are, after all, both on the same side.

I have a strong memory that it was Hogan who spent much of his time under the ball in a pack near the goal square, not Watts. Yes, Hogan played up field a bit but when there is a long kick into the forward line from the centre square it is Hogan we expect to see, not Watts. We are hoping he is the one kicking. As for the number of goals kicked being a determinant, I wonder if Eddie Betts considers himself a tall forward because of the number of goals he kicked? Nick R might be a role model for Hogan with his gut running and strength in the air, but his role is not comparable to Watts who plays a totally different game. .

I reckon that a tall forward plays as a target for the midfielders. Either leading towards a team mate for a pass or standing under the ball in the middle of a pack to grab a mark, make a contest for the crumbers or restrict an easy exit. Jack Watts dominant pattern of play was none of the above. He delivered into the forward line more than he received as a target. His ability to find space in the midfield between the arcs, win the ball and deliver into the forward line was his strength. Just being tall and playing in the forward line does not a tall forward make.

No move required. That is exactly how he played in 2016. That he sometimes ends up close to goal as a finisher does not alter his role. He knows where to go for maximum benefit and sometimes that can lead him to fill gaps in the forward line. He also fills gaps in the backline. That's what a link player does. Apart from the centre bounce he plays no position. He plays a role.

Max is a weapon not just for his ruckwork but also for his marking around the ground and his clever positioning and assistance to the littlies at his feet. There are few other ruckman who are in the same league. Most just need neutralising that can be shared by Watts, Pederson and the stay at home tall. A forward line needs three permanent talls to function to its maximum potential so I see Pedo as back up rotation from the bench with Max and the other tall forwards. Think of it as a five man tall team rotation.

Watts is too versatile, skillful and valuable as a link player between defence and attack and mid field play maker to be wasted as a tall forward. I nominate Vandenberg be the third tall to support Hogan in his role as a roving key forward and one from Weed (in time), Pedo, Hulett or Smith as stay at home strong forwards who can feed the crumbers and deny the opposition easy exits.. Three tall forwards was a Balme innovation in 1994 when we were blessed with Schwarz and Lyon as key tall forwards complemented by Pike in a forward pocket who could lead, take a pack mark, add toughness at ground level and kick goals. Vanders is our best bet in that role today.