Vogon Poetry

Derailed.

Just back from training. Horrible to see Liam go down. I couldn't tell whether it was ankle or knee but he went down and stayed down for sometime before being examined and carted back to AAMI. The session was physically very demanding and different drills. WW has done a great job describing who was doing what. Hibberd and JKH in the main group and looking sharp. The rehab group don't look far away and were doing a range of contact drills. Standouts for me today were Max Gawn who just looks so fit, Oliver who was having no trouble with some of the running, AVB and Harmes who did well. Oh, and Hunt. Boy did he look good using his pace and skills. Hogan was also very good today along with the regulars like Lewis, Vince and Jones. Petracca and Brayshaw were also in everything and Petracca's field kicking was excellent. Any questions let me know.

Cheney, Sam Jacobs, Josh Jenkins, Tom Lynch, Scott Thompson, Stef Martin, any number of GWS rejects at Carlton, Jack Cripps, Michael Barlow, Zac Dawson, J Ceglar, David Hale, Daniel Cross, Shaun Grigg, Houli, Ivan Maric, Miles, Tom Hickey, Tim Membrey, Shane Savage, Mav Weller, Josh Kennedy, Jeremy Laidler, Ben McGlynn, Ted Richards, Shane Biggs. All of these players, taken from a quick scan of club's 2015 playing list, came from other clubs to play reasonable careers at their new club from situations where their chances of senior footy at their original club was limited. I understand each has their own story but the reality is players have moved through lack of opportunity at one club to another. I don't see that we will be immune from this. Players who are good enough to get games on a regular basis at AFL level who are denied opportunities with us will want to move. We only need four or five players to take the next step and we'll face this situation. It's what you want because you can trade out current excess for either needs or future players. GWS are obviously a classic example.

I'd like you to get a similar photo of Spencer and see what people think. Criticised for his kicking there is nobody in the AFL that has a ball drop closer to his foot. He's a very reliable kick now IMO, contrary to popular opinion.

Frankly I thinks it's an absolutely valid topic. In the past we've delisted because people haven't been good enough and nobody else has wanted our "surplus". That hopefully won't be the case in future years as the list gets stronger. I hope we get to the stage that we have players that are well and truly good enough to play AFL footy but aren't good enough to get a game with us.

I'm amazed that so many don't rate Neitz as a favourite. He always struck me as someone you'd go into battle with. But it is a favourites thread. I'm just surprised.

It's not that you shouldn't say so it's the number of times one poster needs to say it and the manner in which it's said.

If that's true Jack then it's very sad for the players involved but fantastic for the Hawks (in particular). Having said that I remember Andrew McLeod being said to be finished after about 200 games. He went on to play 340. I'd love to see the Hawks fail, had enough of them. I've also had enough of bleeding Geelong on Fox Footy. Every second game is of them.

Agree with all of that other than I don't think Bartel was that slow.

This comment reminds me of a mate who when I said "Sad to see Grimesy go" said "he was no f'ing good". I called him a jerk, not because he was wrong but because he said it.

Went to training today and agree with previous reports. ANB and JKH running fast laps. Heard Watta say "if only I could run like that" as they powered around. ANB doesn't look to be injured to me and in fact the five in rehab didn't look inconvenienced at all. Was standing right near Trenners and Misso as Trenners was being put through what looked like "burst from a standing start" drill. He did this drill in straight lines and then breaking both left and right. He had one of our blokes hold him back with a exercise band making it harder to burst. Good to see they are working on his specific weaknesses. In general practice he looked good but of course it wasn't contested crowded situations. Unlike Saty I didn't think Hogan was a standout and actually thought he was blowing a bit of dust out after missing last week. No real standouts for me today other than perhaps Stretch but really they all looked pretty good. What really pleased me was when they were running 220's in pairs Harmes was leading Jones in the front pair and AVB and Melksham were really powering just behind. Hogan and Petracca were jogging behind so I don't know what the story was there. Oliver didn't seem out of place in the running which is pleasing and Salem did the full session despite reports of a head knock before Christmas at the camp. The only disappointment for me was Petracca's kicking which missed the mark a bit but he might just have been having an off day. Apparently they had a gruelling session on Saturday which finished with 3 x 1km runs. Trac was so exhausted he caught the cart back to AAMI! All in all they looked really good today but of course it's just training. Good to see so many on the park. Edit: the other one who impressed today was Nev Jetta. His kicking was very good indeed in all the drills and he was heavily involved.

I hope you're right because if this is the case we clearly have another player "jump into calculation". He's not in anyone's "best 22" much so expectations are low. Let me clarify my thoughts. I recently watched the 2011 Melbourne v Essendon game where Jack played and I was reminded of his skill. But putting it in perspective Jordie McKenzie was BOG and got 3 Brownlow votes and Gysberts and Scully were as good or better. Jack is a good footballer but I don't see him as having any special abilities other than his overhead marking which is not much good when you're a midfielder. It's something that will be useful on occasions but you won't be selected for it. Jack isn't quick, in fact I'd argue he's very slow in the first 5 metres where it counts. He can't kick it far. He's not a ball magnet. His aerobic ability is blunted because although he can run all day he can't get there quickly. He's not big and bullocking like AVB. He doesn't have strength over the ball like Petracca. At best he'll be a middle of the road inside mid (he can't be outside because of his pace) and we have lots of them. If he plays he replaces AVB, Tyson, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Lewis, Jones, Harmes, Vince or another mid. So when he plays having him in the team is an incremental benefit/deficit. Measured against those players I don't see many "benefits". That's why I don't see "what he brings" because he is another that we already have. As Saty says he will bring yet more competition for spots but he won't make us a significantly better team.

Competition for spots is not created by one person but by a group of people. Trengove may be one of the group but with him or without him we have competition. Still think from what I've seen he is very slow by afl standards. Hope I'm wrong.

It's not his speed over 200 that worries me. Anyway, here's hoping. Whilst it would be a lovely feel good story if he got back I don't know what he brings that we don't already have. TBH I was never the wrap that everyone else was and always saw a lot more in Scully. Hope I'm proved wrong.

Clearly to be a great team you need great players and I think we have a lot of potential in this area - Gawn, Viney, Hogan, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver and Hunt would probably be my pick. We then have a cast of very good players - Salem, Watts, Tyson, Stretch, McD x 2, Kent, Weideman, Hibberd and Jetta. I've left out players like Vince, Jones and Lewis given their age. The lists above are not exhaustive but indicative. Then we have what I would call "bottom sixish". Two players that I reckon will play a large part in how good we become are Harmes and AVB. I've watched some of the replays from last year and these two played a much greater role that I thought. Harmes with his aggression and AVB with his strength. AVB came off a limited preseason and fought an ankle issue which stopped him becoming fit enough for stints in the midfield but on reflection I think he could be much more important than we thought. Of course then there are the unknowns. JKH is one I know the club has not lost hope in. Hannan and Johnstone may provide something and even Bugg and Kennedy could finally establish themselves. But AVB and Harmes are the two for me that could make a much bigger impact than many think. It's easy to pick Salem or Petracca because they have obvious talent at the top level. Harmes and AVB don't but I reckon they will both have a significant impact. And Wagner is another who could surprise but it's just hard to see where he gets a game.

I haven't been on these things before but I've done physically demanding things in the past. I'm sceptical when people say they get no benefit. I just wonder if you learn something about yourself that you might not even be aware of or if the experience prepares you for some things. I don't know, I just find it hard to believe a well (human) resourced and competent management group would ok it for little or no benefit. It's not like they wouldn't have other things they'd like to do with the money.

It seems to me that whilst the debate has been robust nobody here claims any specific knowledge to substantiate their position. Therefore it seems most are just pizzing in the wind and wanting to defend their positions in the absence of any facts. My uninformed position would be that it's of dubious benefit but I'd be open to the arguments for it. I'm inclined to think that given the experience of people like Mahoney, Goodwin and McCartney the benefits would outweigh the negatives. Those worried about the injury aspect need to appreciate that injury can occur in any aspect of training - Petracca in training, Frawley in weights and Allan Jakovich getting his gear out of the car. Hell, didn't someone get bitten by something at Brighton beach one year during a recovery session? Whilst McQueen and Dazzle have experienced this sort of thing and claim no benefit neither are AFL players who are expected to perform at high levels when exhausted.

If anyone can give feedback on Oliver I'd be interested. Main group? How was his running?

Saty will tell us.

Also Robbie was a one club player.

Yes, good get. Loved Walshy. But as you say, just a player.

I think it's easy to have favourite players in poor years/teams. Robbie and Junior are examples. I don't remember Junior much before Bailey's years but he was a beacon then and just so admirable. I enjoyed that. It's succeeding in hard environments I like and that makes him a "favourite". Favourites is little to do with "best" although they are linked. How can Jurrah be a favourite with what he's done since he left? Favourites have got to be people you admire. Lyon was a great player but a jerk of a bloke. I was his player sponsor once and he was just rude. I put in a lot of money for me at the time and was lucky enough to get him. He made it obvious he didn't want anything to do with the "sponsorship". He attended one function during the year, said hello and excused himself saying he'd be back. No, never saw him again. My sponsorship bought me literally about 10 seconds of contact. He'd never be a favourite of mine but it doesn't stop him being a great player and captain. As Biff says, hard not to have him in the "best" ten.

I don't usually do these but some of mine deserve recognition. Also I've done mine in order to put meaning and difficulty into it. Unlike Pro I haven't put any of our youngsters in as I reckon a player needs to stand the test of time. 1. Robert Flower. Anyone who needs an explanation why didn't see him play at his prime in our horror years. 2. David Neitz. What a man. Games, captain and goals record holder I think. A fantastic leader who just did it all. Two time all Australian. Turned down money from the club he was entitled to because of our financial situation. Only beaten by Flower. 3. Junior McDonald. AA midfielder in our worst period. Brave, respected, small and a true leader. 4. Steven Stretch. Sadly more remembered for deciding not to spend the night in hospital for a meaningless display of courage and play out the game. Graceful, fast, beautiful kick, great overhead, two time B&F and could find it and did it over a long period. If you want to know how good this guy was just watch the 1987 finals. 5. Alan Johnson. Fantastic player both in the midfield in his youth and in the back pocket as he got older. 6. Brett Lovett. For all the reasons mentioned. Unfashionable but impassable in the backline. Just a team player. 7. David Schwarz. Injury denied us of our Wayne Carey His '94 final series was just unbelievable. A bitterly sad day when he did his first knee. Devastating the second. 8. Greg Wells. Along with Flower was a shining light in the dark days of the '70's and just played so well. Was a terrific overhead mark for his size and a prolific kick winner. 9. Gary Hardeman. Springs in his step, great to watch, a fantastic highlight reel with his high marking. Broke two of my ribs playing indoor cricket some years later! What's not to like? 10. Steven Tingay. At his best an AA midfielder who provided dash and excitement. Apologies to Alan Jakovich who had it all but didn't do it for long enough and Jeff Farmer for his excitement but he ran out on us. There are others but when it comes to all time favourites you can't think of a bad thing when you think of them and sadly some were, from time to time, just more interested in themselves than the team. Finally Rhino Richards was so close but I'm not really sure why. Good memories all round and although this has been done before it never loses its interest.

They scored 9 more points than us last year. They scores 100 points more than us in the last round. I'm not worried.

The forward line is elite but top heavy and the backline is ordinary for a team picked over a long period. And of course the midfield "rovers" are ordinary by "elite" standard. It's why we've struggled to really impose ourselves over the journey. I reckon when history is written we've got a couple of midfielders in our team at the moment that will make that team. Actually I reckon there are a lot that could. Oliver, Viney J, T Mac, Petracca, Hogan and Hunt have shown me enough to indicate they'd give it a real push in time. Oh, and of course Gawn. It all bodes well for the future. Like Pro Tingay and Healy are musts for me for Grinter and Travis.