Rnd 1 Rivers vs Franklin

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

supercoach should be firing up again shortly easing the burden of no football. but Rnd 1 is what were all waiting for. yes i am looking forward to the NAB cup to see what Bailey and co have been up to , but the thought of Rivers on Franklin is getting me excited. Rivers doesnt allways go the spoil, he is a very good reader of the play and takes a lot of marks in defence when others would spoil , giving us the ball and not leaving it 50/50 on the ground. other than that Miller will take Roughhead. Miller you all say, but hes useless. my tip is hell star in our backline this year.

[sylvinator 96]

would love to see Rivers slot in to CHB. the bulked up version of rivers should have no trouble filling this spot.

however re Miller.

Bailey mentioned that he thought this season there were some melbourne players being played out of position.

imo he was specifically reffering to Miller playing in the backline. Miller has always played his best footy as a leading CHF. he is a clueless defender unfortunately.

if given confidence and if he learns what to do with the footy once its in his hands then i still think he can be a successful leading CHF.

no point playing miller back and forward switching. give him one job and stick with it. Miller at his best gives us 10 marks a game around 80m out from goal. this would be a great result.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

would love to see Rivers slot in to CHB. the bulked up version of rivers should have no trouble filling this spot.

however re Miller.

Bailey mentioned that he thought this season there were some melbourne players being played out of position.

imo he was specifically reffering to Miller playing in the backline. Miller has always played his best footy as a leading CHF. he is a clueless defender unfortunately.

if given confidence and if he learns what to do with the footy once its in his hands then i still think he can be a successful leading CHF.

no point playing miller back and forward switching. give him one job and stick with it. Miller at his best gives us 10 marks a game around 80m out from goal. this would be a great result.

i tend to disagree on Miller. Miller was used as a lead up CHF under ND. he allways presented well when the ball was coming out of our defence, this also dragged a opposition big man out of our forward 50. Neitz, Robbo, Yze and Davey on a lot of occassions kicked enough goals to win the game.(obviously not enough)kicking goals was not part of his job description. then when we played the Swans and Freo he often found himself down back. then along came Dunn and Bate who were tried along the half forward line with mixed results.enter Juice the forward 50 is becoming crowed. Holland is on his last legs and as tough as Carroll is(nothing beats his tackle on the G-Train) Miller is more athletic and taller than him.(Carroll is sometimes found wanting against taller opponents. being also younger if his aggression is put to good use as im sure Bailey will do, he could make a good FB for the next 5 years. i think we agree that he will be in the side though.

Al`s DEMONS is not a psuedo name for Brad Miller

[Axis of Bob 10,247]

Rivers doesn't have the speed for Franklin. I wouldn't be surprised if Frawley played on him.

Still early days, though.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

A semi-fit Rivers would be a problem on Franklin. But yes, he seems the most likely option. I have my concerns though...

[Big Kev 340]

Rivers doesn't have the speed for Franklin. I wouldn't be surprised if Frawley played on him.

Still early days, though.

I agree, Franklin would be too quick for Rivers and Frawley may be the best option.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

i tend to disagree on Miller. Miller was used as a lead up CHF under ND. he allways presented well when the ball was coming out of our defence, this also dragged a opposition big man out of our forward 50. Neitz, Robbo, Yze and Davey on a lot of occassions kicked enough goals to win the game.(obviously not enough)kicking goals was not part of his job description. then when we played the Swans and Freo he often found himself down back. then along came Dunn and Bate who were tried along the half forward line with mixed results.enter Juice the forward 50 is becoming crowed. Holland is on his last legs and as tough as Carroll is(nothing beats his tackle on the G-Train) Miller is more athletic and taller than him.(Carroll is sometimes found wanting against taller opponents. being also younger if his aggression is put to good use as im sure Bailey will do, he could make a good FB for the next 5 years. i think we agree that he will be in the side though.

Al`s DEMONS is not a psuedo name for Brad Miller

Miller was a one trick pony who picked up cheap possessions on the centre wing that rarely hurt the opposition. He was useless within the 50 mtre arc and struggled to win a contest. Despite being a dedicated player with solid attitude and good athleticism, his lack of football smarts condemns him either up forward or down back.

There has been alot of talk about DB being the "messiah" to change Miller around. I hope Bailey's style of coacching does have a positive impact on Miller. I am not confident about that.

Rivers doesn't have the speed for Franklin. I wouldn't be surprised if Frawley played on him.

Still early days, though.

Agree. I also dont see Rivers playing in the last line of defence either. Frawley for mine.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

Miller was a one trick pony who picked up cheap possessions on the centre wing that rarely hurt the opposition. He was useless within the 50 mtre arc and struggled to win a contest. Despite being a dedicated player with solid attitude and good athleticism, his lack of football smarts condemns him either up forward or down back.

There has been alot of talk about DB being the "messiah" to change Miller around. I hope Bailey's style of coacching does have a positive impact on Miller. I am not confident about that.

Agree. I also dont see Rivers playing in the last line of defence either. Frawley for mine.

getting the ball down the ground were his instructions, ND along with the rest of us knew he wasnt a crack shot at goal and his disposal was ordinary at times, not a good pack mark but good on the lead. providing a target when the ball was coming out of defensive 50. someone could run past, collect handball and hit up a leading forward. there was no one else to play CHF in any capacity so ND did the best(suppossedly) with what he had to work with. I think DB will be the messiah for the whole club. it started with Travis Johnstone, our attitude has been sh*thouse over recent years. as you said Rhino: he is dedicated with a good attitude and athletic. MFC website isnt working properly at the moment , but of top of my head Miller is younger, taller, quicker(in my opinion) , weight(cant check) and just as tough as Carroll. I have two questions for you Rhino:

1- how smart do you have to be to play fullback, considering youre main objective is to punch/spoil opponents full forward? Mal Michael won three flags just punching the ball. never really involved in setting up the play

2- having seen Miller hold his own against some of the key forwards in the game, would you like to see Miller or Carroll at fullback next year? even trial Miller during NAB cup games?

[sylvinator 96]

1- how smart do you have to be to play fullback, considering youre main objective is to punch/spoil opponents full forward? Mal Michael won three flags just punching the ball. never really involved in setting up the play

2- having seen Miller hold his own against some of the key forwards in the game, would you like to see Miller or Carroll at fullback next year? even trial Miller during NAB cup games?

firstly i think u underrate the footy smarts of the best fullbacks... darren glass and Mal Michael are both terrific readers of the play. they are very good at anticipating where the ball in going and when and where the forwards are going to lead.

If i fullback is purely reactive he will be slaughtered, no matter how athletic. (for those who followed the draft, this is precisely the reason Chris Kangars was only picked up pick 40something in the rookie draft).

I don't see Miller becoming a fullback, bc he is not a natural defender. they have tried a number of times to teach him to become a defender, however he has failed dismally...

people refer to when Miller beat Hall in one match back in 2006 or something. Anyone who watched Sydney vs Melbourne last season, and saw how Hall absolutely ripped him a new one marking, goaling and assisting would realize that he just isn't a defender.

play him at CHF like he did in 2005 season when he took 10 marks a game around 70m out from goal. this was a really fantastic role even if he wasn't kicking goals. Miller is a forward and a pretty good one at his best.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

firstly i think u underrate the footy smarts of the best fullbacks... darren glass and Mal Michael are both terrific readers of the play. they are very good at anticipating where the ball in going and when and where the forwards are going to lead.

If i fullback is purely reactive he will be slaughtered, no matter how athletic. (for those who followed the draft, this is precisely the reason Chris Kangars was only picked up pick 40something in the rookie draft).

I don't see Miller becoming a fullback, bc he is not a natural defender. they have tried a number of times to teach him to become a defender, however he has failed dismally...

people refer to when Miller beat Hall in one match back in 2006 or something. Anyone who watched Sydney vs Melbourne last season, and saw how Hall absolutely ripped him a new one marking, goaling and assisting would realize that he just isn't a defender.

play him at CHF like he did in 2005 season when he took 10 marks a game around 70m out from goal. this was a really fantastic role even if he wasn't kicking goals. Miller is a forward and a pretty good one at his best.

not being smart, if im a fullback playing on Fev for example, theres a fair chance the balls going to him. the forward will lead to his teammate running through the guts loooking for the lead, at this point in time the attacking team should be creating space for the key forward, the defending team will try to block his run, or have the 3rd man up(or both). Carroll knows where to run but IMO is not quick enough or big enough. Miller has beaten Hall more than once and you can add Pav to that list. once is a fluke but many times means some amount of ability. granted his ability is not allways present when he takes the field. Miller is not the only Melbourne player guilty of being towelled up last year, and not the only player beaten by Hall. so if Miller is your CHF please tell me how our forward structure would look and our backs, leave out the mids and bench this is what ive come up with, not complete yet

Wheelan Miller Frawley

Bell Rivers ? maybe Bruce .... 3 lots of tall timber, 2 attacking flankers and small defender

Davey Bate Robbo

Green Neitz Newton ..... a forward line to be reckoned with. Davey best small forward in the game, not a midfielder. Neitz to teach Juice before handing over the keys to the goalsquare. Bate : shown glimpes of quality and can load up from outside 50. Green should allways have been a forward and Robbo... say no more

[Slartibartfast 15,800]

Miller was a one trick pony who picked up cheap possessions on the centre wing that rarely hurt the opposition. He was useless within the 50 mtre arc and struggled to win a contest. Despite being a dedicated player with solid attitude and good athleticism, his lack of football smarts condemns him either up forward or down back.

There has been alot of talk about DB being the "messiah" to change Miller around. I hope Bailey's style of coacching does have a positive impact on Miller. I am not confident about that.

Agree. I also dont see Rivers playing in the last line of defence either. Frawley for mine.

Happy NY RR, I see your NY resolution was to keep putting the boots into Miller at every opportunity. Personally while I have my reservations I haven't written him off. I also won't put that view in a post every time Millers name is mentioned. I think most of us know what your view on Miller is by now, perhaps it's time to let the season unfold and see if your right.

Rivers killed Franklin when we played the Hawks in R2 last year. I'm not so sure he can't play on him. Franklin doesn't hurt teams in the air so perhaps you could play someone smaller and agile on him. Wheatley or Bruce? I agree Frawley has all the attributes to play on him except experience.

[Nasher 33,068]

I agree Frawley has all the attributes to play on him except experience.

Experience is one of those things you only ever get after you needed it. And there's only one way to get it.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I have two questions for you Rhino:

1- how smart do you have to be to play fullback, considering youre main objective is to punch/spoil opponents full forward? Mal Michael won three flags just punching the ball. never really involved in setting up the play

2- having seen Miller hold his own against some of the key forwards in the game, would you like to see Miller or Carroll at fullback next year? even trial Miller during NAB cup games?

I think Sylvin answered the first question and I think Miller has a chance this year to make it at AFL level. I am not sure where that position is. 1 to 2 years ago I thought Miller had a better chance down back but I have not been enthused. Carroll is a stopgap fullback at best and is clearly warming the spot for someone else. They will both have there days up back but by the end of 2008, I suspect we will know more about Miller's capacity for AFL and hopefully Frawley has stepped up in front of Carroll.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Happy NY RR, I see your NY resolution was to keep putting the boots into Miller at every opportunity. Personally while I have my reservations I haven't written him off. I also won't put that view in a post every time Millers name is mentioned. I think most of us know what your view on Miller is by now, perhaps it's time to let the season unfold and see if your right.

I went soft on him this time!!

I suspect your position is not much different to mine and I hope DB does pull a rabbit out of the hat and turn the player around.

It will be a bonus for the Club if DB does.

[Slartibartfast 15,800]

Experience is one of those things you only ever get after you needed it. And there's only one way to get it.

I disagree. Learning the game (and gaining experience) is a progression like most things, you don't need to play on the best player to learn. Frawley's played a handful of games and you want to play him on one of the best forwards in the comp. It doesn't make sense. Surely Rivers and Carroll have the responsibility to have first/second goes. If they fail give Frawley a go, but you put your best on the oppositions best first up.

[maximum bob 462]

A footnote on the original topic Rivers vs Franklin.

Miller should have been traded when he actually got a whiff of the football and had trade value.

'Trier, good heart, a great clubman, not that skilled.' Not what you want on your resume.

Definitely his last year if this club is serious.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Miller should have been traded when he actually got a whiff of the football and had trade value.

'Trier, good heart, a great clubman, not that skilled.' Not what you want on your resume.

Definitely his last year if this club is serious.

How many Clubs would want to give up their trade picks for a resume that says "trier, good heart, a great clubman, not that skilled" and what would they realistically give? Further, why would the Club have sought to trade a KPP that was potentially establishing himself when we were chronically short of KPPs?

[Slartibartfast 15,800]

How many Clubs would want to give up their trade picks for a resume that says "trier, good heart, a great clubman, not that skilled" and what would they realistically give? Further, why would the Club have sought to trade a KPP that was potentially establishing himself when we were chronically short of KPPs?

Why would a club want to keep a player that you believe is worthless?

There was one club at least who wanted him. Clearly you are both (RR and MB) out of step with at least two clubs. It doesn't mean you're wrong, but perhaps it's not as black and white as you think.

[george_on_the_outer 6,992]

When Dean Bailey arrived at the club he would have examined the list to see who had upside in some way.

TJ didn't, Miller has. And the reason is that he is a big bodied mobile. This creates a lot of possibilities. And the one that everyone keeps overlooking is mid-field. He has been spending a fair bit of time with this group pre-season, read into that what you may. Dunne and Newton up front, Frawley and Rivers down back....we have options that release him. I can't wait to see the opening games.

As for Franklin, as others have already noted, he doesn't beat you in the air. For someone who is that big he is very ordinary overhead. However, he is very mobile and quick, so you have to play a quick or a combination on him.

But then he only turns it on every couple of games and is rapidly becoming another Richo on the field.

Am especially awaiting further with his off-field antics which no doubt will resurface again this year.

[Nasher 33,068]

...who had upside in some way. TJ didn't...

TJ had no upside. Right.

I was and am 100% in the "trade TJ" camp but to suggest he had no upside is rewriting history.

[DeeMfc 621]

Speaking of backlines.

I think we will see a lot more of PJ in the backline as a roaming tall or even at times playing on tall forwards.

He is athletic, strong and a good spoiler.

PJ played a very effective role across our backline in the win against the Crows last year.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

When Dean Bailey arrived at the club he would have examined the list to see who had upside in some way.

TJ didn't, Miller has. And the reason is that he is a big bodied mobile. This creates a lot of possibilities. And the one that everyone keeps overlooking is mid-field. He has been spending a fair bit of time with this group pre-season, read into that what you may. Dunne and Newton up front, Frawley and Rivers down back....we have options that release him. I can't wait to see the opening games.

As for Franklin, as others have already noted, he doesn't beat you in the air. For someone who is that big he is very ordinary overhead. However, he is very mobile and quick, so you have to play a quick or a combination on him.

But then he only turns it on every couple of games and is rapidly becoming another Richo on the field.

Am especially awaiting further with his off-field antics which no doubt will resurface again this year.

you mention Miller in the midfield, what do you think of Wheatley on a wing? if he gets the ball across defensive 50 run 10-15 metres then unload into our 50. I like the Richo analogy, one thing though, take out the 1 goal 9 performance his kicking is slightly better than Richos

[brey9186 102]

who is going to get the ball down to franklin is the issue...

hodge, lewis and crawford are all missing...

[drdrake 3,038]

Rivers should always be played at CHB so he shouldn't play on Franklin. Your Backline and forwards are only as good as the midfield let them be, if our midfield plays like it did in 2007 any player at FB will get slaughtered. Michael and Glass are good Full backs because both had the best midfields in the comp, (Michael at Brisbane he sucks at Essendon)Personally I think Frawley has to start at FB with Carroll next to him and Rivers at CHB and Bell/Whelan/Green filling the other spots.

On Miller what he is best at is a lead up CHF if our midfield cant get clean footy and dispose of it well Miller will not get a kick. Our skills were sub standard in 2007 if this doesn't improve in 2008 our KPP will struggle again.

[Guest Schtacker]

who is going to get the ball down to franklin is the issue...

hodge, lewis and crawford are all missing...

Hahaha yeah I forgot all about that! What a handy little gift that is to start off '08