7 minutes ago, JTR said:

While I agree that our connection inside 50 has been a persistent issue, I would still argue that being a leader in this new metric - during an era that favours fast ball movement - has us much better positioned than people think, or at least want to acknowledge whilst we are in the depths of another hand wringing phase.

We're excelling in many other areas across the ground, yet struggle with that final phase and putting points on the board.

I'd much rather that than getting smashed in all facets of the game, or persisting with an old game style like Carlton.

It's clear we're on a challenging path, but there's definitely merit in what we are trying to do.

It isn't if you can't hit the side of a barn.

Our abities to finesse play with nuanced pace are little to non-existent sadly.

We resemble headless chooks at times.

I'm sure many of these players didn't grow up and come through the ranks in this manner. ( the clue to understanding the cause is to understand this premise)

Edited July 3Jul 3 by beelzebub

2 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

There was rumour circling around that Jimmy Bartel maybe approached as GM of Football. Any truth to that?

He seems to have his head screwed right. Heck he may even leak some of the Cats special herbs and spices for us to get a leg up.

Looks like we may have competition.

I heard Carlton is also considering bringing Barrel to the fold.

We better move quickly before Carlton takes away the coach or any other FD staff that we may need/want.

3 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

It isn't if you can't hit the side of a barn.

Our abities to finesse play with nuanced pace are little to non-existent sadly.

We resemble headless chooks at times.

I'm sure many of these players didn't grow up and come through the ranks in this manner. ( the clue to understanding the cause is to understand this premise)

We can do some serious case studies.

What's happened to Fritsch?

What's happened to JVR?

40 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

How many times have we talked about execution. That's been the constant theme for 8 or 9 years. I and others wanted Viney to play as a pressure forward in 2020 because his ball use was a killer in midfield.

In 2021 I also lamented our goalkicking. I said if we didn't kick straight we wouldn't win the flag. We had an incredible finals series where we kicked mostly straight.

The way you're framing these things is like no one has ever said them. Our ability to execute has constantly been a Demonland trope for as long as I can remember...

I still want to see Viney played as a pressure forward and I hope it's not abandoned.

Just because he had to go into the middle and helped us a lot when he did doesn't mean the experiment was a failure. 1 quarter is a useless sample size.

2 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

Hysterics much

Goodwin stays

Look at the assistants

Haven’t we done that already. Ultimately the head coach can instruct the assistants as what to focus on, in this Goodwin has failed.

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm a firm believer that Goodwin is advocating change and is trying to implement change

But it's fairly obvious (to me, at least) that the players are just not adhering to change

The old habits becomes the default mode under pressure

I reckon most of the other teams have realised that if they pressure our mids then the ball will be rushed forward to a forward line bereft of talent

And just to make sure of it, the opposition teams flood our forward line to make it doubly hard to score (from the inside 50 entries)

Not exactly news either ... it was evident in early 2022 that was the M.O. of the opposition teams

We rarely see Oliver, Petracca or Viney in free space delivering the ball forward

This probably ties back to what was said earlier about trusting the same group of core players with the new methods, when they themselves might be incapable of doing it.
We can only work with what we have.

As for our forward line talent, I've mentioned elsewhere that if we plonked JVR, Petty, Turner, Fritsch, Kossie and co infront of a different midfield who get it in fast an to their advantage (rather than Oliver/Viney/Petracca method), they'd be completely different players and significantly more effective.

No key forward in the game would make a difference in our forward line, given the way it goes in.
Except maybe Darcy who can mark anything anywhere, whether its to his advantage or not.

2 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

We can do some serious case studies.

What's happened to Fritsch?

What's happened to JVR?

We have a significant number of players who have regressed in the last year and a half

Are they self-satisfield? Hungry for success? Desperate for success?

I look at the list and see lots of talent. Certainly enough talent to be playing finals

Just a waste of a season

In 2024 we lost Gus, then Petracca & Oliver was average

But now all we see is average, right across the playing list

How to fix things is the big question as just changing the coach* may not change much at all. As previously stated, if we cull the list then it might be more a case of salary dumping

*And changing the coach might cost the club in the region of $2.5Million

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

....

Not exactly news either ... it was evident in early 2022 that was the M.O. of the opposition teams

..

Not to diminish the value of the rest of your post but I'd like to zoom in on this aspect.

This is my biggest gripe really.

Immediately after ( or possibly during ) our GF win opposition brains trusts were dissecting and plotting our downfall.

What worked ( and might I suggest...only just ) in 21 faltered and became less problematic for other teams subsequently.

I'm not alone in noticing it and commenting upon such as this occurred. But here we are the backend of 25 going nowhere fast. We've had 4 drafts/trading and the better part of 4 seasons to arrive at our current malaise.

We need new blood and better ideas together with ppl ( assistants and other FD ) who can actually achieve.

The path we're on and current guides aren't taking us to the summit.

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

We have a significant number of players who have regressed in the last year and a half

Are they self-satisfield? Hungry for success? Desperate for success?

I look at the list and see lots of talent. Certainly enough talent to be playing finals

Just a waste of a season

In 2024 we lost Gus, then Petracca & Oliver was average

But now all we see is average, right across the playing list

How to fix things is the big question as just changing the coach* may not change much at all. As previously stated, if we cull the list then it might be more a case of salary dumping

*And changing the coach might cost the club in the region of $2.5Million

How on earth do you arrive at 2.5m ?

8 minutes ago, JTR said:

This probably ties back to what was said earlier about trusting the same group of core players with the new methods, when they themselves might be incapable of doing it.
We can only work with what we have.

As for our forward line talent, I've mentioned elsewhere that if we plonked JVR, Petty, Turner, Fritsch, Kossie and co infront of a different midfield who get it in fast an to their advantage (rather than Oliver/Viney/Petracca method), they'd be completely different players and significantly more effective.

No key forward in the game would make a difference in our forward line, given the way it goes in.
Except maybe Darcy who can mark anything anywhere, whether its to his advantage or not.

Yep, it's like we lack imagination when entering the f50 (or it's bombs away)

But is it that complicated?

Kicking the ball out in front of a leading forward doesn't seem like too big of an ask

Nevertheless, we don't do it

Even at suburban level, it's taken for granted that the mids will try and pass the ball to a leading forward

Heading into the forward line, we play unintelligent football

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm a firm believer that Goodwin is advocating change and is trying to implement change

But it's fairly obvious (to me, at least) that the players are just not adhering to change

The old habits becomes the default mode under pressure

I reckon most of the other teams have realised that if they pressure our mids then the ball will be rushed forward to a forward line bereft of talent

And just to make sure of it, the opposition teams flood our forward line to make it doubly hard to score (from the inside 50 entries)

Not exactly news either ... it was evident in early 2022 that was the M.O. of the opposition teams

We rarely see Oliver, Petracca or Viney in free space delivering the ball forward

I agree. But then there has to be a counter to this right - otherwise all teams would do this to each other?

Our main point of difference is contest and inside stoppage. So if they pressure us from the outside, they know that its very very difficult to get frontside of stoppage every single time. They are willing to let us have - at best - 2-3 goals from stoppages (we havent been able to even this of late). And its no surprise to see Kozzy leading the charge here. We just need to have any one of the other midfielders back at their best alongside Viney (who plays the sweeper role). iF we have two of our midfielders firing on all cylinders we are more likely to win the stoppages and contest game. But that alone will not guarantee victory. So solving the Oliver / Trac dilemna in my eyes is only half the solution.

Goody and others ahve said that we need to focus more on winning the ball back in all parts of the ground and being able to punish teams on the turnover. We were going ok (from memory) in generating turnovers, its that we dont have the cattle to punish.

3 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Not to diminish the value of the rest of your post but I'd like to zoom in on this aspect.

This is my biggest gripe really.

Immediately after ( or possibly during ) our GF win opposition brains trusts were dissecting and plotting our downfall.

What worked ( and might I suggest...only just ) in 21 faltered and became less problematic for other teams subsequently.

I'm not alone in noticing it and commenting upon such as this occurred. But here we are the backend of 25 going nowhere fast. We've had 4 drafts/trading and the better part of 4 seasons to arrive at our current malaise.

We need new blood and better ideas together with ppl ( assistants and other FD ) who can actually achieve.

The path we're on and current guides aren't taking us to the summit.

3 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Not to diminish the value of the rest of your post but I'd like to zoom in on this aspect.

This is my biggest gripe really.

Immediately after ( or possibly during ) our GF win opposition brains trusts were dissecting and plotting our downfall.

What worked ( and might I suggest...only just ) in 21 faltered and became less problematic for other teams subsequently.

I'm not alone in noticing it and commenting upon such as this occurred. But here we are the backend of 25 going nowhere fast. We've had 4 drafts/trading and the better part of 4 seasons to arrive at our current malaise.

We need new blood and better ideas together with ppl ( assistants and other FD ) who can actually achieve.

The path we're on and current guides aren't taking us to the summit.

Ir's fair to say that it has taken the MC too long to implement change with regards to our f50 entries

Fair enough in 2022 and maybe 2023 as we were still winning a stack of games. But we did try and change in 2024 but then abandoned

I still reckon it's the players who are at fault though. Old dogs, new tricks and all that

6 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

How on earth do you arrive at 2.5m ?

Apparently Goodwin is on at least $1Million per year and the contract is rock solid

But a 75% tax would go on one of the years remaining in his contract ($750k) if it was an early payout

So do the Maths and you have your answer

15 minutes ago, Macca said:

We have a significant number of players who have regressed in the last year and a half

Are they self-satisfield? Hungry for success? Desperate for success?

I look at the list and see lots of talent. Certainly enough talent to be playing finals

Just a waste of a season

In 2024 we lost Gus, then Petracca & Oliver was average

But now all we see is average, right across the playing list

How to fix things is the big question as just changing the coach* may not change much at all. As previously stated, if we cull the list then it might be more a case of salary dumping

*And changing the coach might cost the club in the region of $2.5Million

Even if he finishes this season?

In any case it may be offset by the amount of memberships we could potentially lose if Goodwin continues.

We won't reach 60k this year. Depending on how badly they finish the season and if Goodwin is confirmed for next year... We are danger of not reaching 50k.

21 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yep, it's like we lack imagination when entering the f50 (or it's bombs away)

But is it that complicated?

Kicking the ball out in front of a leading forward doesn't seem like too big of an ask

Nevertheless, we don't do it

Even at suburban level, it's taken for granted that the mids will try and pass the ball to a leading forward

Heading into the forward line, we play unintelligent football

No & no it’s not.

27 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Haven’t we done that already. Ultimately the head coach can instruct the assistants as what to focus on, in this Goodwin has failed.

It's also always the head coach who's game plan is the template. Yes you will get better echelon assistants who's inputs might not just enhance his area of responsibility but also drive change of overall game styles/plan but it's the head coach's vision that's implemented.

We could probably go better ( even as we are ) if there was a properly sorted and educated forward line. That's down to effectively 2 people and ultimately one.

It's the same dumb 💩 week after week.

I honestly can't remember a time when intelligent forward craft was ever a priority under Simon's charge. Last time I looked the backline doesn't hit the scoreboard yet we just pig-headedly persist with Neanderthal footy. Does my head in.

15 minutes ago, Macca said:

Apparently Goodwin is on at least $1Million per year and the contract is rock solid

But a 75% tax would go on one of the years remaining in his contract ($750k) if it was an early payout

So do the Maths and you have your answer

We pay him out for 26.. that's not 2.5 m.

I did the maths

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Looks like we may have competition.

I heard Carlton is also considering bringing Barrel to the fold.

We better move quickly before Carlton takes away the coach or any other FD staff that we may need/want.

I think Carlton are 2-3 years behind us realising that they have stuffed up another rebuild. We have already started to recruit our next wave of talent.

So in terms of potential i think we are closer to the our next shot at the flag than Carlton is.

Not sure that makes a difference though. End of the day it may just be the size of the offer that matters more to Bartel.

10 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Even if he finishes this season?

In any case it may be offset by the amount of memberships we could potentially lose if Goodwin continues.

We won't reach 60k this year. Depending on how badly they finish the season and if Goodwin is confirmed for next year... We are danger of not reaching 50k.

But we can't necessarily contribute the membership drop off back to the coach

The team isn't performing and many players are well below their best

And there are a number of other factors such as cost

I'm not a huge Goodwin fan but the the fall off has been across the board, not on one man's shoulders

Others can disagree

21 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

We pay him out for 26.. that's not 2.5 m.

I did the maths

In rough terms

Ok if he is on $1.2Million per annum (could be more) then that's 1.5 years ($1.8Million) plus $750k tax

Equals $2.55Million

By the way, the Neeld payout was $1.4Million and coincidentally, we asked for and received a grant of $1.4Million* from the AFL at the same time (cash-flow issue apparently!!)

*Might have been $1.3Million

Edited July 3Jul 3 by Macca

26 minutes ago, Macca said:

But we can't necessarily contribute the membership drop off back to the coach

The team isn't performing and many players are well below their best

And there are a number of other factors such as cost

I'm not a huge Goodwin fan but the the fall off has been across the board, not on one man's shoulders

Others can disagree

I agree it's not just Goodwin fault but usually the head coach is the first one to be axed.

We still need more change than just the HC.

3 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

I agree it's not just Goodwin fault but usually the head coach is the first one to be axed.

We still need more change than just the HC.

Yep but I can't see the axe falling anytime this year

35 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

I think Carlton are 2-3 years behind us realising that they have stuffed up another rebuild. We have already started to recruit our next wave of talent.

So in terms of potential i think we are closer to the our next shot at the flag than Carlton is.

Not sure that makes a difference though. End of the day it may just be the size of the offer that matters more to Bartel.

37 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

I think Carlton are 2-3 years behind us realising that they have stuffed up another rebuild. We have already started to recruit our next wave of talent.

So in terms of potential i think we are closer to the our next shot at the flag than Carlton is.

Not sure that makes a difference though. End of the day it may just be the size of the offer that matters more to Bartel.

Geelong and C'Wood have shown you don't have to draft your way to reset (or rebuild) a list and some canny mature age recruiting can change things in a relatively short time frame. Key is to have savvy people in recruiting & coaching. Think that is an issue for both the Blues and the Dees and it may be a scramble to chase some of the same names.

40 minutes ago, Macca said:

In rough terms

Ok if he is on $1.2Million per annum (could be more) then that's 1.5 years ($1.8Million) plus $750k tax

Equals $2.55Million

By the way, the Neeld payout was $1.4Million and coincidentally, we asked for and received a grant of $1.4Million* from the AFL at the same time (cash-flow issue apparently!!)

*Might have been $1.3Million

If we let him go eos.. that's only one year to pay.

No one's sacking him before that. ( no one's got those cohunas ;) )

Not sure why we'd be paying anyone's tax. Their problem surely

Time to go, Goody. No

Time to change, Goody. Yes.